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T2BPO why they should be removed and how.

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shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#901 - 2012-07-26 14:51:53 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:
I sell you one for 15bn that I researched in 3 month, deal? not a troll!


Did you research it on NPC station?

No, you didn't.


I dont even own a BPO ;)
I would have just bought the BPO of contracts for like ~2bn to resell it to you for 15 beacuse they are aparently worth that much ;)
Also you can research the BPO within 2 Month to a perfect level on a NPC station, no issue at all.

I want to take back my assumption that you dont own any T2 BPO, infact you must have a lot because with your straight back backpedalling and invalidating any removal reasons it makes only sense to save your BPO`s!



shar'ra phone home
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#902 - 2012-07-26 14:57:02 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
PROFIT.

Not anymore since now everyone knows...

Everyone but you already knew.
Here's also something most people also know that you don't seem to know either : at least 9 out of 10 Hulks is produced via invention, not from a BPO.
And you'll probably want to start using something like this : http://sourceforge.net/projects/eveiph/files
Probably not that one, but something similar. There's a few.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
MR rockafella
Santa's Factory
#903 - 2012-07-26 19:35:38 UTC
i think t2 bpc should be nerfed, they are destroying the t2bpo's. invention needs to be nerfed and made much harder so my t2bpo's becomes more valueble.
shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#904 - 2012-07-26 21:40:16 UTC
MR rockafella wrote:
i think t2 bpc should be nerfed, they are destroying the t2bpo's. invention needs to be nerfed and made much harder so my t2bpo's becomes more valueble.



wordBear

shar'ra phone home
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#905 - 2012-07-26 21:47:27 UTC
Akita T wrote:
HULK, not HML, you spaz. As in, the damn friggin' exhumer. The ship. The one you fly in. To mine ore.


Yay! You finally almost got angry at the absolute ridiculousness.

Hint: math and facts haven't worked worth a damn; please shift tactics to insisting that everyone else is an exotic bird and birds don't need spaceships anyway.
Ginger Barbarella
#906 - 2012-07-27 00:35:18 UTC
46 pages later, and you guys are STILL feeding the trolls. Amazing.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Pipa Porto
#907 - 2012-07-27 01:17:04 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
46 pages later, and you guys are STILL feeding the trolls. Amazing.


It's pretty clear to me that both Jorma and Brewlar honestly believe what they're saying even after every point they've tried to make has been discredited. Which makes them fanatics, not trolls.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#908 - 2012-07-27 18:25:55 UTC
Still waiting for CCP to destroy the T3 manufacture by seeding T3BPO's. After all ''BPO's have no market effect'' said by a douche at ccp, so why should they not seed more BPO's both t2 and t3?

CCP grow some balls and fix your mistakes other wise follow through with them. Don't just stop at being half a tard either go full on tard by seeding more BPO's for t2 and t3 or actually gain some intelligence and remove T2BPO's.
Pipa Porto
#909 - 2012-07-27 18:41:37 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Still waiting for CCP to destroy the T3 manufacture by seeding T3BPO's. After all ''BPO's have no market effect'' said by a douche at ccp, so why should they not seed more BPO's both t2 and t3?

CCP grow some balls and fix your mistakes other wise follow through with them. Don't just stop at being half a tard either go full on tard by seeding more BPO's for t2 and t3 or actually gain some intelligence and remove T2BPO's.


So, what you're saying is that you are no longer willing to address the points others have made and thus concede the argument. Gotcha.

/thread

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#910 - 2012-07-27 20:56:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
After all ''BPO's have no market effect'' said by a douche at ccp

Except for the small inconvenient fact that it's not actually what he said.

A more accurate paraphrasing of what he really said would be that in markets of "in demand" items, T2 BPOs don't really affect prices by any noteworthy amount, which was obvious since well before he actually said it.

...

In those "in demand item" markets, BPOs can't meet demand, so invention will generally be profitable.
It's not a given that invention WILL be profitable, because inventors are perfectly capable of killing their own profits, as can be seen with items where no T2 BPOs exist at all to begin with.
Price of items is set by whatever the best invention cost route is plus a reasonable profit for the inventor. BPO owners would be stupid to undercut whatever that price actually is by any significant amount, as it would cut into their own profit.

OF COURSE items that are somewhat crappy so that very few people use them will be mainly manufactured from BPOs.
They will also cost barely above BPO manufacture price, and those BPOs would have a horrible profit (even a lot of T1 BPOs have better profit).
Removing those particular BPOs would solve nothing of relevance except have price of those T2 items go up even further, and demand for them drop to even lower values, possibly even ceasing to be used at all in some cases.

So, all in all, whether T2 BPOs exist or not has little influence over inventor PROFIT.
What they do have an influence over is either inventor NUMBERS (mainly for "in demand" items, where they have next to no effect on prices) or T2 item prices (for "crap" items, where inventor numbers are practically zero).
Removing T2 BPOs DOES NOT help inventors much. And it also does not help consumers, quite the opposite.
Nobody is objectively better off if T2 BPOs are removed WITHOUT also buffing invention. And buffing invention would have pretty much the same effect even if you would not touch T2 BPOs at all.
Removing T2 BPOs serves very little real PRACTICAL purpose. It's mainly an ego trip move.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#911 - 2012-08-31 17:37:54 UTC

I'm sorry, the t2 BPO's were seeded YEARS ago....

T2 BPO's do NOT need to be removed from the game.... While I'm open to new invention/production mechanics that allow the production of t2 items at better ME levels, I vehemently demand these requires lowsec/nullsec production.

T2 BPO's allow players to produce all t2 items profitably compared to invention (that is, when you ignore the cost of acquiring the t2 BPO). But so what....

In March 2012, the percentage of modules produce from invention:

93.95% of T2 Gyrostabilizers,
89.77% of 1400mm II,
87.34% of 425mm Rail II,
82.00% of Tachyon II,
74.23% of Torpedo Launcher II.

In March 2012, the percentage of ships produce from invention:

90.23% of Hulks,
67.85% of Sabres
65.01% of Wolves
22.16% of Pilgrims
6.00% of Eagles

Source Summary
Direct Source

There are a lot more stats, but I cba to list them all... Here's the point: Modules and Ammo are primarily produced through invention, so removal of those BPO's wont do anything but HURT the BPO holder.... These producers wont see more profit, and the consumers wont get any items cheaper.... Considering the work most BPO holders put in to acquire their BPO, this is just cruel and wrong to do!!!! Now, Ship production is often dominated by t2 BPO holders... however these items move slowly, and typically priced BELOW the invention production cost.... so removing these BPO's would result in HIGHER PRICES for people that want to buy these ships.... How is that good???? Sure, it means people that want to produce Eagles via invention could then make a profit, but who wants to reward the idiotic fool that is trying to produce slow moving T2 Ships for profit by paying more for those ships????

I have few more points:
1.) Many serious produces secure moongoo and minerals at BELOW MARKET VALUE. If you are competing against them, you're just going to lose.... Should this be fixed too? I think not, I like getting cheaper items....

2.) I'm not opposed to giving a boon to t2 production at POS's, such that we can produce t2 items at high-ME levels (which won't really alter module production all that much, but will ammo & ship production). The caveat.... this new POS production module can ONLY be done in LOWSEC or NULLSEC....

3.) I'd like there to be more risk to using ALL BPOs.... Having a BPO safely locked away in a station where it's at extremely low risk seems broken to me.... I realize we can't force expensive BPOs to be used AT THE POS until POS's have been revamped so players can have secure-able POS hangars, but implementing something like this would be awesome!!
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#912 - 2012-08-31 17:47:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
Damit GizznittCry

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#913 - 2012-08-31 18:36:19 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
46 pages later, and you guys are STILL feeding the trolls. Amazing.


It's pretty clear to me that both Jorma and Brewlar honestly believe what they're saying even after every point they've tried to make has been discredited. Which makes them fanatics, not trolls.


Indeed, they believe in doing the right thing, while the Goons behind most of the profits in this game believe the complete apposite.
Tarendar
Sparkle Pony Inc
#914 - 2012-08-31 18:46:42 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:



In March 2012, the percentage of ships produce from invention:

90.23% of Hulks,
67.85% of Sabres
65.01% of Wolves
22.16% of Pilgrims
6.00% of Eagles



Now, THAT is actually an interesting bit of data... and a strong argument for killing T2 BPOs, the first one I've seen.

I've been building T2 hulls for a couple of years now. In particular, Hulks and Mackinaws. Why only barges? Because combat T2 hulls aren't profitable. Never have been. (1) We're talking maybe five percent margins most of the time, at which point there's no reason to go into the market. And I've always wondered who these idiots are, who keep the prices on T2 hulls below cost so much of the time. Now I know.

T2 ammo, drone, and module BPOs aren't a significant barrier to entry for new players looking to go industrialist. I know that, I've competed successfully against BPO holders in those markets, and I've talked about it on this forum. However, it is apparent that T2 hull BPOs are such a barrier.


-t is data-driven

1) There's actually a weird price spike going on with a particular subset of combat hulls in a particular place during the past couple of months... I won't say which ones or where, because I'm exploiting it as fast as I can invent. If anybody wants to ask me, the trend on prices on that set of hulls shows them being back down to 0% margin in about a month and I'll talk about it then :)
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#915 - 2012-08-31 18:56:26 UTC
Tarendar wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:



In March 2012, the percentage of ships produce from invention:

90.23% of Hulks,
67.85% of Sabres
65.01% of Wolves
22.16% of Pilgrims
6.00% of Eagles



Now, THAT is actually an interesting bit of data... and a strong argument for killing T2 BPOs, the first one I've seen.

I've been building T2 hulls for a couple of years now. In particular, Hulks and Mackinaws. Why only barges? Because combat T2 hulls aren't profitable. Never have been. (1) We're talking maybe five percent margins most of the time, at which point there's no reason to go into the market. And I've always wondered who these idiots are, who keep the prices on T2 hulls below cost so much of the time. Now I know.

T2 ammo, drone, and module BPOs aren't a significant barrier to entry for new players looking to go industrialist. I know that, I've competed successfully against BPO holders in those markets, and I've talked about it on this forum. However, it is apparent that T2 hull BPOs are such a barrier.


-t is data-driven

1) There's actually a weird price spike going on with a particular subset of combat hulls in a particular place during the past couple of months... I won't say which ones or where, because I'm exploiting it as fast as I can invent. If anybody wants to ask me, the trend on prices on that set of hulls shows them being back down to 0% margin in about a month and I'll talk about it then :)


Are you sure you read that data right? Less than 10% of all Hulks produced are from BPOs. How is that an argument for BPO removal?

Unless you're referring to some of the other hulls. In which case, all the BPOs are doing is creating an artificial bottom in the economy. Which frankly is needed for things like Eagles or there just wouldn't be any.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#916 - 2012-08-31 21:03:39 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
Damit GizznittCry


I don't understand what the Double Face Palm is for..... Roll what did I do????
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#917 - 2012-08-31 21:14:20 UTC
Tarendar wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:



In March 2012, the percentage of ships produce from invention:

90.23% of Hulks,
67.85% of Sabres
65.01% of Wolves
22.16% of Pilgrims
6.00% of Eagles



Now, THAT is actually an interesting bit of data... and a strong argument for killing T2 BPOs, the first one I've seen.

I've been building T2 hulls for a couple of years now. In particular, Hulks and Mackinaws. Why only barges? Because combat T2 hulls aren't profitable. Never have been. (1) We're talking maybe five percent margins most of the time, at which point there's no reason to go into the market. And I've always wondered who these idiots are, who keep the prices on T2 hulls below cost so much of the time. Now I know.


Your own data supports why having t2 BPO's is a GOOD THING....

Quote:
We're talking maybe five percent margins most of the time.... And ... prices on T2 hulls below [production via invention] cost so much of the time.


Why does anyone want T2 BPOs removed, when it either doesn't effect the market (see t2 ammo and modules) or it results in LOWER PRICES for everyone (see your quote)????

It's not like you have to produce eagles to make isk, and it's not like you can't produce eagles without the BPO... So, I don't understand why your panties are in a twist...
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#918 - 2012-08-31 21:29:54 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Zifrian wrote:
Damit GizznittCry


I don't understand what the Double Face Palm is for..... Roll what did I do????

You bumped this thread...which was dead for over a month Evil

It's the same back and forth, no one adds anything different and no one is convinced of anything one way or the other. It needs to die and get locked indefinitely.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#919 - 2012-08-31 22:15:26 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Zifrian wrote:
Damit GizznittCry


I don't understand what the Double Face Palm is for..... Roll what did I do????

You bumped this thread...which was dead for over a month Evil

It's the same back and forth, no one adds anything different and no one is convinced of anything one way or the other. It needs to die and get locked indefinitely.


I was linked to it from another post... I wasn't browsing the S&I forum.... and I'll stop bumping it now and let it die...
Traedar
InterStellar Trading Syndicate
#920 - 2012-09-01 02:44:48 UTC

Hi. I wasn't going to comment in this thread but I see it's still going. I'm speaking as someone who "won" a T2 BPO years ago and made a nice profit on it.

How much profit you get from T2 BPOs, and how much affect they have on market prices, is irrelevant to whether they belong in the game or not. There are no BPOs for Tech2 BS or Tech3 and the markets for them are fine.

In a game where player innovation is celebrated, encouraged and really sets this game apart from others, T2 BPOs as they exist are the opposite of everything Eve Online stands for. With any other aspect of the game you can work towards getting whatever it is you want. Sometimes by yourself or with teamwork. Think about it:

You want to shoot players? Go for it.
You want a BPO for a Tech 1 ship? Buy it.
You want to make special Tech 2 items? Invention.
You want to produce Technetium? Alchemy or claim a Tech moon.

You want a no risk, little effort, ISK-printing Mackinaw BPO? No.

That goes against everything Eve Online is about. In this way T2 BPOs are probably the worst feature in the game. Sorry, T2 BPO owners. With no other meaningful asset can you say "sorry this is mine and you can't have one like it, ever".