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Why Ninja Salvaging should be considered an exploit
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Saint Lazarus
Spiorad ag fanaiocht
#21 - 2012-08-31 15:57:26 UTC
OP its "Lose"* For GOD sake.

Also terribad redundant post.
Tyrton
Imbecile MIiss Managment and Disasters
Intergalactic Interstellar Interns
#22 - 2012-08-31 16:02:34 UTC
MetalDev wrote:
Pinstar Colton wrote:
Exploits are profiting from things passively that should be active. (Like AFK plexing)

A ninja savager has to take the time and effort to probe down the mission runner just for the salvage, and then risks their ship to do their ninjaing. Working as intended.

Try missioning in a quieter part of high sec...or mission in low sec where you can shoot first if you think you can win.



They risk their ship...a T1 frigate or Dessy in most cases. Cost less than 500K total. So you pop that. Then the whole fleet of people warp in and you're effed, good by marauder, navy bs, whatever you fly to do level 4's. Then they profit from that.

The exploit is abusing a game mechanic to gain an unfair advantage over a player. Someone stupidly said "you have to earn salvage" - if it wasn't for my guns blowing up that ship, there would be no salvage to collect. Therefore, I earned it. It's mine. Funny how loot can be yours but not salvage, that doesn't make sense. Something's that PASSIVE and should be ACTIVE:

When they steal your loot they ACTIVELY have an aggression countdown for theft. When they steal your salvage NOTHING happens - therefore the result is entirely passive. Like I said, its loose loose, either shoot and get ganked or let them have it and watch your hard work get taken right from under your nose. Dishonorable, weak, lame, and generally poor.



To counter Ninja

if you fly a marauder you already have the option to salvage as you go.
if you choose to fly a different class of battleship bring a friend in a noctis to salvage as you go.
(a well skilled noctis pilot makes ninja's shed silent tears)

IIRC CCP ruled that salvage is chance based and it is not an actual item until the salvager runs the cycle.
This means that there is no loot to steal or drop, salvager puts it directly in the cargo hold then it becomes an item.

The loot belongs to the one created the wreck the salvage belongs to who ever puts a salvager on that wreck.


You complain that they fly in groups ... Why don't you. What is stopping you to get a noctis alt looting and salvaging as you go.
You complain about not getting money yet no ninja can take your mission payout away from you ... What you are really bitching about is that you are not making 100% expected profit. Yet you are still making more isk than it cost to you in ammo.

Your EXPECTED profit should only be the mission payout without bonus. Everything else is gravy (bonus, loot, salvage)

Pros of ninja(if you wish to look at it as such)

-easy profession to get into as a newb
-they are the only check to an isk faucet that is LV4


This is only for me (i can be strange)
-They bring a new dimension to an otherwise boring part of eve (especially if you are all skilled up that you can't incur losses)


If you are going to shoot at them... WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU STAY in your mission ship.
Take a shot at them and if they warp out so should you and ship up/down to a pvp ship, (careful you might enjoy this part even if you lose a ship)


Fly safe
Din Chao
#23 - 2012-08-31 16:13:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Din Chao
Tyrton wrote:
If you are going to shoot at them... WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU STAY in your mission ship.
Take a shot at them and if they warp out so should you and ship up/down to a pvp ship, (careful you might enjoy this part even if you lose a ship)

This. Turn the table. And it's way more fun than whining on the forums.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2012-08-31 16:15:08 UTC
Posting in a retro-thread.
Uris Vitgar
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-08-31 16:17:06 UTC
As a player who got hooked on the game with ninja salvaging, salvaging a wreck belonging to someone else should constitute stealing under the aggession mechanics. Apart from anything else you won't make much money just salvaging these days anyway, the loot is where it's all at, so you might as well give the flag straight away to encourage ninjas to be less afraid of it.

Quote:
They want you to try to defend yourself so that they can exploit a game mechanic and have people warp in and kill you, which you would have absolutely no defense against.


If you bothered to learn the mechanics of the game you would kick yourself for realising how utterly stupid that statement is. In a "mission flipping" situation, absolutely every advantage belongs to the mission runner, the trick relies on them being clueless idiots at almost every step.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#26 - 2012-08-31 16:18:17 UTC
Quote:
OP, did you know that in 0.0 the ONLY way for you to make money to survive is to kill rats while there are no bad people in local ...


I think it's time to pack your bags, you're in over your head.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Samoth Egnoled
Caldari Provisions
#27 - 2012-08-31 16:26:30 UTC
MetalDev wrote:
Yes, they're annoying, yes they're carebears who prey on mission runners, and yes most of them are cowards and won't fight 1v1. These things we know.

But I thought of it like this. If you pop an NPC and the wreck contains loot - they can steal it. Stealing constitutes taking items from a container that do not belong to you. Salvaged components are items. Salvaged components are contained within a wreck. And yet when someone is salvaging your wrecks and not looting them, they don't get any punishment for it. What it comes down to is them using a module to take your items from a container that you created by destroying an enemy. Anywhere else in EVE this is illegal and results in an aggression countdown. Why not with salvaging? Because some Dev somewhere wrote "CONCORD considers wrecks to be communal junk, anyone can have junk"? Seems legit...

And then of course we move on to everyone's favorite - the real reason its an exploit. Let's say you choose to fight back. I've one shotted many a T1 frigate or destroyer and gotten away with it. 99.9% of the time they either return with a PVP fit ship and a few friends, or all of their friends who were waiting warp in and gank you, you loose everything. My point here is there's nothing - literally nothing you can do about it. You can attack - you might pop one or maybe two of them, but you'll be ganked, scrammed, and pop goes your ship. You loose.

Or you can give in, just let them have all your loot and salvage. They'll make lots of money, you'll have wasted a lot of time and lost isk. You loose. It seems a poorly balanced system where the people making their isk legitimately have absolutely no recourse or defense against having people blatantly steal from them. They want you to try to defend yourself so that they can exploit a game mechanic and have people warp in and kill you, which you would have absolutely no defense against. Balance the system, make it a fair fight.




Now essentially i agree that salvaging a wreck that isnt yours should cause the agression timer, But i am a greifer and i believe in the circle of greif... if goes a little like this...

Carebears get ganked for stupid reasons in high sec -> carebears whine on the forums and get ccp to make changes to the game pissing pvpers off -> PVP'rs use the new game mechanics to greif the carebears.

Also assuming that you here missioning in high sec, His buddies cant help other than neutral remote reps, your corp mates CAN help you. If you fall for it you deserve to get ganked IMO
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#28 - 2012-08-31 16:27:52 UTC
You have a lot of options:

1) Ignore them. If they're spoiling for a fight, simply continuing your mission as if they aren't there will be an effective way to bore them into messing with someone else.

2) Shoot your wrecks. If they're after salvage, blow up any wreck they approach. It's a clear message that they won't profit and they won't get fights. Again, they'll go in search of easier targets.

3) Learn to PVP and keep a PVP ship in your mission system. Dock up, come back, and shoot them. Even if you lose, at least you put up a good fight and had some fun (hint: Eve isn't about never losing ships).

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
betoli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2012-08-31 16:31:39 UTC
MetalDev wrote:

Salvaged components are contained within a wreck. And yet when someone is salvaging your wrecks and not looting them, they don't get any punishment for it.


Let's say you choose to fight back. I've one shotted many a T1 frigate or destroyer and gotten away with it.


How did you one shot them when they had no timer. You seem to be claiming that you can already do the thing your asking for - which of course is untrue...

It does strike me as odd that people who normally advocate PVP situations being encouraged don't support an aggression timer for ninjas. Bit of hypocrasy going on methinks.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#30 - 2012-08-31 16:34:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
I don't know what's more funny.

That people still ninja salvage since it's a completely worthless profession and pointless from both an ISK and tears perspective.

Or that people are actually getting butthurt that someone is in their mission hoovering up the least valuable stuff.

Mr Epeen Cool
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#31 - 2012-08-31 16:42:06 UTC
Renan Ruivo wrote:
OP, did you know that in 0.0 the ONLY way for you to make money to survive is to kill rats while there are no bad people in local ...

and that there are some bad people who will then decide to jump in those systems and stay there .. like ... forever? And cloaked, so that nobody can kill them?! Now people can't make money!!


So really ... there are far worse exploits to deal with!!


By the way, the post above has used Sarcasm. Lighten up ^^

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Virgil Travis
Non Constructive Self Management
#32 - 2012-08-31 16:44:07 UTC
MetalDev wrote:
The exploit is abusing a game mechanic to gain an unfair advantage over a player. Someone stupidly said "you have to earn salvage" - if it wasn't for my guns blowing up that ship, there would be no salvage to collect. Therefore, I earned it. It's mine. Funny how loot can be yours but not salvage, that doesn't make sense. Something's that PASSIVE and should be ACTIVE:

When they steal your loot they ACTIVELY have an aggression countdown for theft. When they steal your salvage NOTHING happens - therefore the result is entirely passive. Like I said, its loose loose, either shoot and get ganked or let them have it and watch your hard work get taken right from under your nose. Dishonorable, weak, lame, and generally poor.


Wrong, wrong and wrong. They don't STEAL your salvage, first off it's not your salvage until it's in your cargo and secondly it's not stealing since CONCORD views salvage as being open for anyone to remove.

You leave with nothing, good day sir!

Unified Church of the Unobligated - madness in the method Mamma didn't raise no victims.
Adalynne Rohks
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2012-08-31 16:46:50 UTC
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Not sure if troll...



or genuine butthurt.


Oh, believe me... The butthurt is very much genuine. Smile
Grek Forto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-08-31 16:50:23 UTC
Per CCP Mitnal:
CCP Mitnal wrote:
"Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."

Per GM Faolchu :
GM Faolchu wrote:
Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.

Per Senior GM Ytterbium :
GM Ytterbium wrote:
Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.

Per CCP Prism X :
CCP Prism X wrote:
Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.

Per CCP Incognito :
CCP Incognito wrote:
Had a chat with some designers this evening.
Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private.
They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.

(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#35 - 2012-08-31 16:53:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
I don't think OP knows what carebear means.

MetalDev wrote:
99.9% of the time they either return with a PVP fit ship and a few friends, or all of their friends who were waiting warp in and gank you, you loose everything. My point here is there's nothing - literally nothing you can do about it. You can attack - you might pop one or maybe two of them, but you'll be ganked, scrammed, and pop goes your ship. You loose.

And to add insult to injury, they salvage your wreck too. Aww :<

Oh god.
betoli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2012-08-31 16:53:23 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:

Or that people are actually getting butthurt that someone is in their mission hoovering up the least valuable stuff.

Mr Epeen Cool


depends on the NPC faction - some are not so less valuable.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#37 - 2012-08-31 16:57:58 UTC
betoli wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Or that people are actually getting butthurt that someone is in their mission hoovering up the least valuable stuff.

Mr Epeen Cool
depends on the NPC faction - some are not so less valuable.
Oh, I don't know. It's pretty much equally awful at this point. The days of 1M+ trit bars and armour plates are long gone…

…of course, the funny part is that back when salvage was worth something, the salvage whines mainly came from MRs in Caldari space, which consistently had the least valuable salvage. P
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2012-08-31 17:04:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Tippia wrote:
…of course, the funny part is that back when salvage was worth something, the salvage whines mainly came from MRs in Caldari space, which consistently had the least valuable salvage. P


Risking to state the obvious, but of course those with the least will whine the most when even that is taken away from them.

Funny part on that side, though ... and i believe that's somehow related ... is that from all those pods i have killed,
only those pilots have complained that didn't actually lose much anyway. (less than a handfull complainers anyway)

And these weren't noobs, so it's not the money-issue.
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#39 - 2012-08-31 17:06:22 UTC
Tippia wrote:
betoli wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Or that people are actually getting butthurt that someone is in their mission hoovering up the least valuable stuff.

Mr Epeen Cool
depends on the NPC faction - some are not so less valuable.
Oh, I don't know. It's pretty much equally awful at this point. The days of 1M+ trit bars and armour plates are long gone…

…of course, the funny part is that back when salvage was worth something, the salvage whines mainly came from MRs in Caldari space, which consistently had the least valuable salvage. P


What is really funny is that the "professional" ninja salvager makes more ISK per hour than most mission runners (some days up to 80m/h), while using 1/10th of the skill points.


You don't see real ninja salvagers at work, only what they (don't) leave behind. They have "ninja" attached to their chosen profession for a reason ...

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
No More Heroes
Boomer Humor
Snuffed Out
#40 - 2012-08-31 17:09:06 UTC
MY LOOT Evil

Seriously though, the "evil" or "bad" professions in this game like ninja looters and pirates need to be guarded at all costs. It is the existence of these occupations that sets Eve Online apart from any other game out there today.

.