EVE General Discussion

Hang on let's just take a step back and look at the situation.

We have essentially two types of players in EVE: Those who fly in High Sec and those who fly in low/null.

There are a lot of differences between low and null but the fact is you can still be killed in pretty much any ship pretty much anywhere.

I can't really believe that High Sec players play in High sec purely because of the implants thing, they play there because they don't like PvP. What difference does it make to High Sec players if all the implants were removed and EVERYONE got +5s to their attributes? I mean you can go "boo hoo nasty nullsec players are facing less risk" but so what? Your game is to sit in High Sec and chug along happily knowing you're relatively safe from attack. MY game is to fly in a totally different region of space welping my corp mates fleets. My game and the game of any newbie would be significantly better in null, any newbie in High Sec would have to fork out for implants in the first place and as long as anyone who owns implants is reimbursed for them they are in the position they were anyway, plus a boat load of isk.

In conclusion:

1) Remove learning implants
2) Reimburse anyone who owned implants for the money they spent
3) All players start with +5 or +4 to all base attributes

This results in:

1) Newbies in both high sec and low sec get into the game faster (increased subscribers?)
2) Nullsec players can advance their skills at the same rate as their high sec brethren, meaning there is next to no reason to take part in PvP
3) High Sec players are in the exact same position as before.

To be honest all this "BOOOOO nullsec players would have a better game but this doesnt really effect me" stuff sounds plain spiteful. It would be like if there was some sort of Quaffe T-shirt that only high sec players could wear was then given to Nullsec players. If you like the t-shirt carry on wearing it, but saying you dont want another group of players to have it "because we have it and it's ours" despite the fact it has literally no impact on your own personal game is spiteful at best.

Or those who don't want to take the risk of losing implants don't use them in the first place. The problem with doing a blanket removal and adding +5 to all attributes is that people will still be wanting a mechanic to increase training speed at a cost. Then you will be back to square one.

Like I said earlier, change your mentality when it comes to implants not the mechanic.

Sure you can. Are you worse off for skipping work on a day you don't spend money? After all, you're only losing potential earnings.

So you can absolutely compare potential and actualized losses. The way I know that is that not upgrading your clone is only a potential loss of SP until you're pod gets destroyed, while plugging in learning implants gives you actual SP until you're pod gets destroyed. In other words, you can easily reverse the terms so that we're talking the potential losses from not upgrading your clone vs actual gains (and thus actual losses) from using (or not using) learning implants.

Just because they feel different psychologically (and believe me, I'm as guilty as anyone of treating them differently), potential loss and failing to work for potential gain are equivalent.



Nope. I said let's let people risk their money for in game advantages (hardwirings) they want to play with, rather than forcing them to risk their money for metagame advantages (SP) as well.

Oh hey Doom, have you found the article where themittani.com didn't post accurate numbers? Because it sure looks like you got called out on your bullshit and are now trying to brush it under the carpet.

I have posted this once before, but I might as well re-post it:

Seriously, it is the answer to all your disagreements (I know a strong statement, but hear me out).

The first part of the probelm is that the cost of your pod and/or your implants stop you from engaging in PvP. The second part of the problem is that people want to keep the learning implants as a means to keep their advantage over others, risk vs rewards and all that stuff.


The solution: Disposable clones!

A disposable clone is a clone you can jump into when you are about to engagage in PvP. The clone does not support any implants or drugs what-so-ever, has a limited lifespan (the biological raw material was of low quality and falls apart eventually). Thus when you what to do some nice PvP, without having to clone jump back and forth you just activate a disposable clone at your current station and fly off in your nice little ship. Once you are dead you wake up in your old "normal" clone.

The price for the disposable clone and the time limit is something CCP can decide on, giving numbers here would just take the focus away from the idea.


Why is this good?

People can PvP without risking their nice little implants and an expensive clone. However using the disposable clone means that you can not plugg in any implants or use any drugs. Thus the risk vs reward is still there: You can still choose to use a normal clone with implants if you want the advanatge. If you get caught while doing PvE you will most likely be in your normal clone and loose the implants as you normally would.

Would this get people to do more PvP? Absolutely!
Would it get more people into low and null? Yes!
Do you still keep the risk vs reward dilemma? Yes
Do you keep all the implants for the poeple that like to invest in +5 implants? Yes

Problem solved! Now please send my your iskies as a payment for this marvelous idea!

Your first point is valid. You are however admitting to be a person to be totally against removing the learning implants. Others wants them gone. I am giving a middle way here. Besides the point still holds. You CAN use the implants if you can afford to lose them. My idea just makes it easier not to use them (an equally effectiv idea would be to remove the timer on clone jumping, but that would just bring lots and lots of other problems instead)

My 3rd and 4th points does not contradict as you can still choose to risk your implants if you so do choose: Imagine doing PvE stuff such as mining in null sec. Most people would keep their normal clone to use their learning implants while they mine. They are thus risking their implants as they normally would. People that know they are about to jump into a big fight with bubbles everywhere would most likely choose the disposable clone yes, but I am hoping that you should still consider my idea "better" than just removing the implants totally.

Yes I do agree that your idea is better then a blanket removal. However what you are suggesting isn't really risk. you have almost complete control over when that risks occurs. The whole basis of risk is that you don't have a choice, that's what makes it what it is. I see what you doing by taking the middle ground however I still don't see it as being needed. This is Eve **** happens and people die, you need to have the mentality that its going to happen and plan accordingly, not change the mechanics to suit those who don't want to.

This I can agree on: implementing a disposable clone will reduce the risk vs reward aspect of PvP (but not totally removing it).

However! There is already a mechanism for this: clonejumping. Sadly the mechanics is best suited for experienced players and players with plenty of time to log in to eve as I stated in my post just above this one.

I do plan accordingly, at the momenet I have a bad internet commention and a bad computer that once in a while crashes (all due to temporarily living in a different country) thus I do not venture into low that often and null almost not at all at the moment. I do not want to risk my implants in low just to get disconnected at a gate somewhere and come back to my fresh clone and I do not have the time to log on every night to manage my clone jumping. If I could jump into a disposable clone I would travel much more often into low and null (looking for PvP and PvE, with the involuntary PvP that comes with that). I could only imagine that many other players is in the same situation.

No, we don't agree. Plugging in implants has a variety of effects on your character, but it's ones own aversion to risk that prevents them from PVPing while those implants are plugged in and most certainly not the implants themselves.

The risk averse in EVE should not be coddled. Even less so when those who are risk averse hang out in areas of the game that increase risk or expect risk at every corner.

Instead of making a disposable clone just allow JC in the same station and lower the cooldown(but don't remove it). The issue I have with disposable is that from the sounds of it there is no cooldown. There should be some risk when flying in a implanted clone even if that means you choose to sit a fight out if your that risk adverse. While it may suck for them that's the risk they take.