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The Case for Removing Learning Implants

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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#221 - 2012-08-31 11:14:34 UTC
Roime wrote:
I wasn't aware that you have to switch clones before PVPing. Probably because nothing forces you.

I can only assume you're deliberately being obtuse at this point.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#222 - 2012-08-31 11:18:50 UTC
No, I think you are.

1. No game mechanic forces you to have a separate clone with implants you can't afford to replace
2. No game mechanic prevents you from PVPing in whatever implants

The problem is not in learning implants. It's in your RL head.

Once again: Don't plug in what you can't afford to lose.



.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#223 - 2012-08-31 11:20:55 UTC
Having an upgraded clone is not a necessity. Clones cost money, and there is the risk of losing your clone in PvP. By the logic of 'learning implants are a good risk/reward', upgraded medical clone costs are good risk/reward.

Remember that a clone represents solid SP while a set of implants represent potential SP. Both cost money. Therefore both are paying ISK for SP with the potential for losing it in combat.

Since SP is the only thing that cannot be directly bought and only earned through time, learning implants should be considered a necessity if you consider an upgraded clone to be a necessity.

If you support the removal of medical clone costs, you should support the removal of learning implants, I think
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#224 - 2012-08-31 11:29:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
So instead of people changing their mentality in regards to investments and risk, you want to change the mechanic to remove that mentality. Odd.

Its also strange to see all the whining about high sec being too safe and CCP making Eve less risk based, yet here people are complaining about risk. Also remember it's been mostly 0.0/pvp players complaining about high sec, yet here it seems to be the same group complaining about learning implants. Double standards much? You want more risk for others but less risk for yourself.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#225 - 2012-08-31 11:30:52 UTC
Upgraded clone prevents you from losing SP, nobody neglects to upgrade their clone if possible.

Reducing clone costs, not removing them. Idk, maybe make them as cheap as learning implants, for example?







.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#226 - 2012-08-31 11:31:09 UTC
Roime wrote:
1. No game mechanic forces you to have a separate clone with implants you can't afford to replace

Most newbies want to get into new stuff quickly, and as such are highly encouraged to get implants to reach that goal faster. And once they have implants which cost multiple times what their ship costs, chances are they're also going to be encouraged to avoid PVP.

Roime wrote:
2. No game mechanic prevents you from PVPing in whatever implants

Except the mechanic which prevents you from disconnecting those implants from your head.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Frying Doom
#227 - 2012-08-31 11:31:42 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Having an upgraded clone is not a necessity. Clones cost money, and there is the risk of losing your clone in PvP. By the logic of 'learning implants are a good risk/reward', upgraded medical clone costs are good risk/reward.

Remember that a clone represents solid SP while a set of implants represent potential SP. Both cost money. Therefore both are paying ISK for SP with the potential for losing it in combat.

Since SP is the only thing that cannot be directly bought and only earned through time, learning implants should be considered a necessity if you consider an upgraded clone to be a necessity.

If you support the removal of medical clone costs, you should support the removal of learning implants, I think

I support the lowering of the clone costs. They are an impediment to PvP that cannot be escaped. Learning implants can, I have jump clones some with implants some without. If I believe I will enter combat and don't wish to risk those implants I don't.

I personally have not used a clone with implants in the last 6 months because I do not wish to risk their loss.

My problem with removing implants is that people are then loosing their gain. So for hi-sec dwellers they are loosing a gain they had over Null/lo-sec/Wh dwellers, without gaining anything and without the Null/lo-sec/WH dwellers loosing anything.

It is just an example of making Null, lo-sec and Wormholes safer. EvE works on risk vs reward. If you risk the implants you gain the extra SP than you would if you chose not to risk them by changing jump clones.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#228 - 2012-08-31 11:33:43 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
It is just an example of making Null, lo-sec and Wormholes safer.

ITT: "encouraging more PVP" == "making null/low/WH safer".

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Pipa Porto
#229 - 2012-08-31 11:39:12 UTC
Roime wrote:
Upgraded clone prevents you from losing SP, nobody neglects to upgrade their clone if possible.

Reducing clone costs, not removing them. Idk, maybe make them as cheap as learning implants, for example?


So... 4 times as expensive as they are now? A set of +3s is around 4 times as expensive as what my clone costs atm. A pair of +4s also happens to be about 4 times as expensive as what my clone costs atm. That's the 13m ~70m SP Clone, by the way, not exactly a newbie clone. Or just twice as expensive, to represent a pair of +3s?

Upgrading your medical clone preserves SP. Plugging Learning Implants in preserves potential SP. Same thing. Both disincentivize PvP.

TBH, I'd have no problem with removing the medical clone system in its entirety, as SP doesn't correlate with income at all like CCP expected. Just let everyone keep their SP and figure out a new ISK sink to replace it.

Let your pod costs be about the stuff that actually gives you an in game advantage, like hardwirings and pirate implants.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#230 - 2012-08-31 11:41:27 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Roime wrote:
1. No game mechanic forces you to have a separate clone with implants you can't afford to replace

Most newbies want to get into new stuff quickly, and as such are highly encouraged to get implants to reach that goal faster. And once they have implants which cost multiple times what their ship costs, chances are they're also going to be encouraged to avoid PVP.


Sounds a bit like newbies being highly encouraged to be cap stable, avoid lowsec and not train Thermodynamics, aka bad advice.

Please try to understand that some people being stupid and bad at EVE is not a reason to change a game mechanic.

Roime wrote:
2. No game mechanic prevents you from PVPing in whatever implants

Except the mechanic which prevents you from disconnecting those implants from your head.[/quote]

You still don't get it? Implants don't prevent PVP. Plugging in stuff that you can't afford to lose does. Exactly the same thing as investing in a 15-billion Tengu and then staying docked because you can't afford to lose it, or buy another ship.

I lose about 10-11 days per year for not wearing +5s. Boo ******* hoo, that means a 30% loss in a single level 5 skill. Hardly something worth ruining your everyday PVP fun, is it?

EVE is all about choices, make ones that make the game better for you.



.
Pipa Porto
#231 - 2012-08-31 11:41:33 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
I support the lowering of the clone costs. They are an impediment to PvP that cannot be escaped. Learning implants can, I have jump clones some with implants some without. If I believe I will enter combat and don't wish to risk those implants I don't.


Medical Clone costs can be escaped easily. Just don't upgrade your clone, and boom. Cost escaped. Sure, it costs you some SP, but so does "escaping" the cost of learning implants.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Josef Djugashvilis
#232 - 2012-08-31 11:42:44 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Tiberius Sunstealer wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Sure they are.

x-1+1=x

But that has nothing to do with clones as they do not take away SP then give SP back on death.


Unimproved Clone > X-1=x[1]
Improved Clone > X-1+1=X-0=x[2]

I don't know how to do subscripts, so the bracketed numbers are subscripts.

0 and -1+1 are mathematically equivalent. When you die normally, you lose SP. Not losing SP and Instantly gaining the SP you lost back are equivalent in the same way (call it gaining SP that you could have lost, if you like).

It's just a different way of looking at it. In the stock market, a Stop Loss order stops you from losing money when the stock price is falling. You can look at the order as not letting you lose money, or as gaining money that you could have lost. It's the same thing.

In the other direction, you lose money every time you miss an opportunity to gain money. Your balance stays the same, but you lost the opportunity to increase it. You can look at it as not gaining money or as losing money that you could have gained. It's the same thing.


Hells bells, I never knew it was so complicated, when I get podded it just costs me plain old fashioned uncomplicated iskWhat?

This is not a signature.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#233 - 2012-08-31 11:44:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Roime wrote:
Please try to understand that some people being stupid and bad at EVE is not a reason to change a game mechanic.

Worked for miners.

Roime wrote:
Implants don't prevent PVP.

Yes, they do.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Frying Doom
#234 - 2012-08-31 11:45:19 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
It is just an example of making Null, lo-sec and Wormholes safer.

ITT: "encouraging more PVP" == "making null/low/WH safer".

If you remove implants from the game but give the bonus, those people living in Null/lo-sec and WH space are therefore receiving the benefits of those implants without having to risk there loss.

So therefore removing the possible loss = "making null/low/WH safer"
if something is as profitable as was but with less risk attached, I would think that would almost be a text book example of safer.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#235 - 2012-08-31 11:49:24 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:


Medical Clone costs can be escaped easily. Just don't upgrade your clone, and boom. Cost escaped. Sure, it costs you some SP, but so does "escaping" the cost of learning implants.


You can't really compare potential loss to normal losses. Losing the potential means you are not any better nor are you worse off, where as actually losing something means you are only worse off.

Pipa Porto wrote:

Let your pod costs be about the stuff that actually gives you an in game advantage, like hardwirings and pirate implants.


So lets promote risk aversion while making it more expensive for those who take risks?

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Dajli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#236 - 2012-08-31 12:26:59 UTC
Ivy Romanova wrote:
well the thing is
CCP is trying to split the gamer population.. giving it a more defined definition.
High sec : Safe zone for the anti-social and timid nerds
Low sec : Low life that gets bullied in school and now is trying to make up for it, and incursion runners too.
Null sec : For the gladiators and intellectuals of the society , trying to make a name for themselves by exploring the riches of the unknown.

So... EVEN if people buys your argument, the very aim of it alone would make the chances of it actually being implemented VERY slim



Lol, Low sec: For neckbeards and child molesters. There, it's fixed now.
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#237 - 2012-08-31 12:53:31 UTC
Arec Bardwin wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I still think that allowing people to clone jump within the same station without a timer would be a better way of taking care of the "risk averse PVPer" problem.
A sensible proposal. +1

This! I want this so bad..

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#238 - 2012-08-31 12:56:12 UTC
Sarah Schneider wrote:
Arec Bardwin wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I still think that allowing people to clone jump within the same station without a timer would be a better way of taking care of the "risk averse PVPer" problem.
A sensible proposal. +1

This! I want this so bad..


I wouldn't mind the idea, hell even remove the timer or lower it to 1 hour. However only if they either remove the ability to jump outside of a region or increase the timer to 4+ days.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#239 - 2012-08-31 13:30:48 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
It is just an example of making Null, lo-sec and Wormholes safer.

ITT: "encouraging more PVP" == "making null/low/WH safer".

If you remove implants from the game but give the bonus, those people living in Null/lo-sec and WH space are therefore receiving the benefits of those implants without having to risk there loss.

So therefore removing the possible loss = "making null/low/WH safer"
if something is as profitable as was but with less risk attached, I would think that would almost be a text book example of safer.


You're right, only the hiseccers would risk losing nonexistent learning implants.

Or are you saying that the risk shouldn't exist for them in any case?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Kheeria
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#240 - 2012-08-31 13:34:23 UTC
rodyas wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Oh its the talk drivel stance.
Well, maybe if you gave your OP a bit of context and actually discussed the topic you decided on, it would be so drivel-like.

Quote:
Actually the article is just more Null tears about making their lives even easier so no I did not quote it. As I said not really worth the read.
Strange that you spent so much time on it, then.
Anyway, so what is this “case for removing learning implants” of yours?



eh, they just want to add +10 learning implants, saying how long it takes to lvl for capitals and supers. They are flying in null sec, so they feel that they should be flying these ships, and get them faster then most pilots. I suppose its fair if you think about it.

I seriously want what you're smoking.