Jita Park Speakers Corner

She is not gonna take you seriously rev, because you didn't use any youtube links in your reply post. She is gonna sit there confused until you link some more billy madison or punch drunk love youtube clips, to help her to understand better.

But she did say this though: "I'd also like to see the ore on low sec SERIOUSLY improved to the point that we see miners trying out their new skiffs in less safe areas to make some better rewards for taking those higher risks (except for spodumain)"

Which is what ya wanted. But she is just saying this with no back up or serious promise ability I suppose, so its hard to accept her statement.

^ Yeah better way of putting it.

In a personal way she supported you rev, but not in a factual way. That is mostly me as well.

As I have said before in other posts if you remove PvP completely from eve, Industry and trade would slow down to a crawl.
But if you remove industry or trade for the game there can be no PvP.

All elements of this game drive the others with no exceptions. If less people PvP then demand for ships and modules shrinks so it impacts whether the profits of mining and industry to the point of slave labour rates. If not enough people mine the prices of ships rise to high to be used in PvP and in the middle of this is the traders trying to make profits, but profits are made through volume, so no volume no need to trade.

You are aware you just said that PvPers build ships, mine ect.. arnt you?

You do realize that was not the type of person I was talking about right?

I was talking about the PvPers who seem to believe industry is beneath them, you know like some people believe water comes out of a tap.

Anyway I am perfectly comfortable in sneering at the PvP crowd who give the carebears a hard time. The ones who sneer at carebears are not likely to go carebearing themselves and if they do and someone brings it up I would be happy to ridicule that person for a month of Sundays.

It requires all types of players to make EvE what it is, not just the PvPers who are mostly in the instant gratification crowd.

As to being the driving force again it requires all the types of players not just pvpers, you would not get much pvp done if there were no ships around to pvp in.

It's not about what you think or your miners think right now.

This is more to do with what people said would be changed during and even before voting week... I can understand there are mining changes underway. I can even understand that it might be difficult to get CCP to look at this stuff now.

However, I will point out that I was contacting present CSM's (at least 4 I can think of) and had agreement that these things needed fixing, and had assurances that they'd be looked at - before they were voted in.

And now... nothing but rhetoric and circular logic.

While the good relationship with CCP is important for the CSM to function, it is not the main goal (no matter how advantageous or nice it is) of the CSM.

I really disliked Mittani and he didn't even perceive the mining industry needed any changes at all, but at least he knew how to get stuff done.

BTW Seleene is in the chairman sticky above agreeing in theory that these things along with many others are "no brainers" and that's making u look silly Issler.

Some things in life are about what you say you're going to do, others are about what you actually do. The difference between the two is called a "lie".

Unless it's a mistake, but then I'm being assured all is going as planned ?!

Once again, this isn't bait - merely logic.

Do you speak japanese by chance?

Also they are pretty new to the game as well. Be hard to make it to CSM.

I am a bit older then the japanese, and look at how Rev was like when he learned how new I was. I doubt they would stand much chance at all. But then again, that was from Rev, so maybe they do stand a good chance.

Yeah well no goons are on CSM though.

Also the russians on the CSM, I heard helped to translate the minutes into russian. I imagine the japanese CSM would do the same. If you don't speak japanese, could be a bit boring.

Forgot about the blocks as well. Suppose they could get a person on ,who knows.

To be honest had Seleene said that instead of you, I would've been totally answered as far as my questions.

This makes more sense to me and I would be far more understanding, instead I get their poor attempts at politicking the situation.

Just for the sake of full disclosure, I will never be running for CSM as I don't feel it necessary.

However, I do think this is a bit of a debacle from my perspective. I guess we'll see what happens for CSM 8.

Oh I don't know, I think people CAN get good things happening by being voted into the CSM. However, I also think that CCP is still leading them around by the nose.

I like most of the work CCP does, but I also understand that without people pointing out the "little inconsistencies" those inconsistencies will continue indefinitely.

This is what I count on the CSM to do. Noone on CSM should need to tell CCP that the POS need to be reworked or that barges needed some help. However, they should be looking for and offering ideas on the small details to ACTUALLY help the people that follow particular types of gameplay - whether it be t2 manufacturing, mining, bounty hunting or whatever.

Installing a system based solely on theoretical ideas of what those people are ACTUALLY doing in the game day to day, is only going to create MORE inconsistencies.

The Unified Inventory should've shown this with flying colours. The system was installed, but people couldn't work it the way they wanted because theory and practice didn't match up.

Similar problems exist in systems that perhaps have less users using them - but I would put to people that less people are using them because they are unworkable, not because people don't want to do those things.

Unlike the inventory, those systems haven't been seen to in a long long time. They have remained unworkable to many - but not everyone. So there are inconsistencies in peoples' perspectives.

Totally agree, but I mean just LOOK at Issler's comments above.

No mention is made of whether it's a large or small mining corp.
No mention is made of whether it's an empire, wormhole, 0.0 or lowsec corp.
No mention is made about the skillpoints of those miners or if they actually DO scan sites down or use a POS refinery.

Instead a stupidass comment is made "my miners say there is no such problem" therefore there must be no such problem.
Rodyas comes up with better logic than that.

This is the kind of dumb politicking and one dimensional linear thinking I'm talking about.

Now take into account that if I run a corp only a couple of jumps into lowsec that allows miners with low SP to join. How do I pay them and still do logistics and perhaps even make a buck on the side?

-25% refinery and a 5% tax means -30% to the newb pilots that might join - not exactly a great start to the profession.

And keep in mind that 5% isn't worth 1) the logistics/risk of moving several peoples ore in lowsec or 2) POS fuel.

Also that if in 0.0 in a rented system your only advantage is that you have high end ores in grav sites - however something like 75% (by m3) of the total ore in the grav site is spodumain. Which you're wonderfully paying the rent/Pos Fuel and risk to mine.

Increasing the number of miners of course (which might be one way of increasing the profit to pay for that POS fuel) increases things like contracts by miners to the corp each day, which then goes into the management of those contract - hopefully fixed in the new "treaty system" but I notice this isn't specified in the minutes. Managing 50 contracts a day and having to manually do the arithmetic takes HOURS.

It might be great sitting in empire running such a corp, because u don't need ALL of these systems functioning at the same time together to be working.

However, I do put to Issler that this is what makes lowsec so empty these days.
One of the platforms many people in the current CSM got voted in on.
Not to mention just "mining in general" that she herself got voted in on.
It also effects wormhole people quite a lot.

This whole thing enters into all kinds of subjects from running a corp to new player experience, but now after they have been voted in - it cannot find a champion to fix it despite the many champions that said they WOULD before and during voting week last time.

I keep comparing this to mittens Titan hotfix, because he had that done through skype within a couple of weeks - no summit required. As none of this was even brought up AT the summit, one wonders how many years off these changes are now...

We don't need more people involved in the development process AT THE EXPENSE of players being represented to CCP.

All in all a pretty sad state of affairs.