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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Trying to Make Everyone the Same

Author
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#21 - 2012-08-30 18:48:11 UTC
Since the Amarr and Caldari have said their peace, I feel compelled to do the same. I am not a minmatar loyalist in the traditional sense of the word. I do not care for the government of the republic, nor any Empire. However, I was raised within minmatar culture, watching minmatar news on minmatar holovision.

The minmatar culture was practically wiped out during the days of darkness. Many matari will try to argue that it has been recovered, that the culture is vibrant and strong, and the old way survive still. No. What survives now is fragments. Relics of a bygone age. The Minmatar people have lost more of their history then not. 700 years of slavery has a way of erasing things. The minmatar today are not the minmatar of the past. If one of those minmatar from before the day of darkness could see what has become of their people today, even were all of them free, they would weep for the lost art and culture and science, the heroes forgotten, their works erased.

The current culture is something else. After the day of darkness, the matari picked up the pieces they could, and began exploring what they could of their past. Modern Standard Matari, the language spoken by the majority of the population, is a testament to that. Much energy has gone to taking those few pieces we have of a very complex puzzle and filling in the blanks. But I believe the end result is a completely different image then it was originally.

So what is that new image of? It isn't pretty. It is a culture driven by war, and warriors. By battlecries and shouts for blood and vengeance. Quick to anger, quick to take revenge, long to forgive. And it is that culture that is impressed upon anyone imigrating into the Republic from the Empire or elsewhere. It is one of xenophobia, paranoia, fear, and hatred of anything 'not matari.' Many will try to disagree, say that we welcome our foreign brothers and sisters with open arms and all that. Its a lie. We dump them into slums and refugee camps. Every day there is sectarian violence committed against those of any religious faith other then the sort of hardline Matari warmongering anti-amarrianism. We have become a culture defined by trying to be not-Amarrian, and we have gone so far in the other direction that we have imposed our own form of authoritarianism. Mob rule. Those in power, in wealthy and predominant clans, don't share. They only bring into the fold those of the mindset they share. One of cultural supremecy and domination. Done not even in the name of religion, but in simply in their minds, 'fixing' the damage done by the Amarrians. Those they don't like, end up dead in alleyways. Trampled in mobs, begging for scraps on streetcorners, or living in overcrowded refugee camps, eating barely edible slop while huge portions of our GDP go towards a war that cannot be won. We are so focused on rescuing the slaves, that we don't care if the slaves we've already rescued starve to death. Those who have accepted the Amarrian culture are treated as either victims who must be inherently broken and need to be fixed, or treated like they are not 'really' Matari at all, since 'no real Matari would belong to the Amarrian faith.'

People talk about the oppression in the Empire, how the dissenting opinion is suppressed, how those who disagree with the majority opinion are silenced, and talk about how we're better then that, how we're somehow more civilized. The Minmatar Republic is a savage nation. The Amarrians created exactly the thing they were most afraid of.
Urthel Drengist
Doomheim
#22 - 2012-08-30 19:09:18 UTC
Saede Riordan wrote:
Since the Amarr and Caldari have said their peace, I feel compelled to do the same. I am not a minmatar loyalist in the traditional sense of the word. I do not care for the government of the republic, nor any Empire. However, I was raised within minmatar culture, watching minmatar news on minmatar holovision.

The minmatar culture was practically wiped out during the days of darkness. Many matari will try to argue that it has been recovered, that the culture is vibrant and strong, and the old way survive still. No. What survives now is fragments. Relics of a bygone age. The Minmatar people have lost more of their history then not. 700 years of slavery has a way of erasing things. The minmatar today are not the minmatar of the past. If one of those minmatar from before the day of darkness could see what has become of their people today, even were all of them free, they would weep for the lost art and culture and science, the heroes forgotten, their works erased.

The current culture is something else. After the day of darkness, the matari picked up the pieces they could, and began exploring what they could of their past. Modern Standard Matari, the language spoken by the majority of the population, is a testament to that. Much energy has gone to taking those few pieces we have of a very complex puzzle and filling in the blanks. But I believe the end result is a completely different image then it was originally.

So what is that new image of? It isn't pretty. It is a culture driven by war, and warriors. By battlecries and shouts for blood and vengeance. Quick to anger, quick to take revenge, long to forgive. And it is that culture that is impressed upon anyone imigrating into the Republic from the Empire or elsewhere. It is one of xenophobia, paranoia, fear, and hatred of anything 'not matari.' Many will try to disagree, say that we welcome our foreign brothers and sisters with open arms and all that. Its a lie. We dump them into slums and refugee camps. Every day there is sectarian violence committed against those of any religious faith other then the sort of hardline Matari warmongering anti-amarrianism. We have become a culture defined by trying to be not-Amarrian, and we have gone so far in the other direction that we have imposed our own form of authoritarianism. Mob rule. Those in power, in wealthy and predominant clans, don't share. They only bring into the fold those of the mindset they share. One of cultural supremecy and domination. Done not even in the name of religion, but in simply in their minds, 'fixing' the damage done by the Amarrians. Those they don't like, end up dead in alleyways. Trampled in mobs, begging for scraps on streetcorners, or living in overcrowded refugee camps, eating barely edible slop while huge portions of our GDP go towards a war that cannot be won. We are so focused on rescuing the slaves, that we don't care if the slaves we've already rescued starve to death. Those who have accepted the Amarrian culture are treated as either victims who must be inherently broken and need to be fixed, or treated like they are not 'really' Matari at all, since 'no real Matari would belong to the Amarrian faith.'

People talk about the oppression in the Empire, how the dissenting opinion is suppressed, how those who disagree with the majority opinion are silenced, and talk about how we're better then that, how we're somehow more civilized. The Minmatar Republic is a savage nation. The Amarrians created exactly the thing they were most afraid of.


That was an interesting post, to say the least.....not that i agree completely with the conclusion but still, it was interesting

Urthel Drengist

C.E.O and Founder of Drengist Intergalactic Liberal Enterprises Ltd. [L.I.D.E.L ] 

Emile Belfleur
Solar Zouaves
#23 - 2012-08-30 19:43:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Emile Belfleur
Captain Khross,

We were in a union, and you were establishing colonies in secret. We maintained that since you were, after all, a partner in that union, those colonies were part of the union, too. You disagreed. A sovereignty dispute. Is this not historical fact?

Of course we (meaning the Federation) subject everyone under our jurisdiction to our government. It wouldn't be much of a government if we didn't, now would it? Don't your people enforce your own laws within your jurisdiction?

It also seems you vastly exaggerate the prevalence of uniform law in the Federation. Only Federal law is universal, and there is plenty of variety in local laws. Gererique law is clearly not Duripant law, for example.

As for your belief in the existence of any such thing as "silent minorities" in the Federation, that only makes it abundantly clear to me that you've never actually lived here. If the minorities are silent, where do all the lobbyists, activists and beggars come from, who our elected representatives are forced to deal with on a daily basis? If the minorities were silent, perhaps our senators would actually be able to do their jobs, undisturbed by a hundred thousand non-elected voices screaming in their ears. Although, if the ILF represent a silent minority in your view, perhaps we just disagree on the definition of "silence".

Now, before you get the idea that we are totally opposed to each other here, let me also point out that I sympathize completely with the Caldari people's professed desire to be left alone - as long as you return the favor. I think that when you decided to withdraw from the Federation in the first place, you should have been allowed to do so peacefully - with your colonies, and without any violence on either side. I personally think the decision to contest your withdrawal, and with military force, no less, was a disgraceful one. It's also possible that things would have been less messy down the line if the Intaki had been expelled at the same time, though that is a different discussion.

I concede that our Federation has had an irritating tendency to get involved in outside matters. We should never have attacked you Caldari for leaving. We should never have involved ourselves in the Matari revolution. We should never have gone to war against Sansha's Nation.

What I won't agree with is the notion that our interference, no matter how unwarranted, has ever resulted in the destruction of or significant damage to the culture of whichever people whose business we have interfered with. The sole exception to this might be Sansha's Nation, though that was in its infancy still at the time, and we were hardly the only ones involved.
Azdan Amith
Doomheim
#24 - 2012-08-30 20:16:19 UTC
Paul Oliver wrote:
But your god is imaginary so how is that supposed to work?

(sorry couldn't resist)


That you believe God is imaginary is simply further proof of your need for him.

I am aware you couldn't resist, you've displayed your lack of self control quite flamboyantly the past week.

Paul Oliver wrote:
Anyways I'm sure many think I'm the last person that should be saying this but could we please TRY to keep the arguing to a minimum atleast in this feed so we can have more dialogue like Emile Belfleur's?


Arguing can lead to a great deal of insight as well, for those that seek to understand others and are prompted to cross-check the information used in those arguments for factual basis or not. While I typically frown on ad hominem and personal attacks, arguing over history can lead to truth being displayed for those whom may not have known it before.

~Archon Azdan Amith,  Order of Light's Retribution

Horak Thor
Angry Mustellid
#25 - 2012-08-30 20:29:04 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Horak Thor wrote:

As for not lieing rodj, where does your information come from about the Ealur not wanting to be free? No doubt you watched some documentary on an Imperial broadcasted Holoreel, need i remind you to take such breainwashing propoganda ridden nonsense also with a pinch of salt.


What I actually said was that they are unsuited to freedom and in no need of "rescue" so please stop trying to put words into my mouth.

Quote:

And who decided the Ealur were genetically unsuited to freedom? Is it the Amarr's right to decide this? the Ealur survived perfectly fine for millenia on there own. Again brainwashed ignorance.


If you had done even the most basic of research you would know that the Ealur are incapable of being freed and would struggle to survive being let free, much like a stray dog released into the wild would quickly be devoured by wolves.


Its written by the Amarr you fool, look at what we had to do to become free, you clearly want to hold onto your slaves.

.....

Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#26 - 2012-08-30 20:33:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Paul Oliver
Azdan Amith wrote:
Paul Oliver wrote:
But your god is imaginary so how is that supposed to work?

(sorry couldn't resist)


That you believe God is imaginary is simply further proof of your need for him.


I did put something vulgar here but ya know what, whatever man.

I'm not gonna fall for it this time. Sorry for the disruption.
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
Horak Thor
Angry Mustellid
#27 - 2012-08-30 20:36:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Horak Thor
Saede Riordan wrote:
Since the Amarr and Caldari have said their peace, I feel compelled to do the same. I am not a minmatar loyalist in the traditional sense of the word. I do not care for the government of the republic, nor any Empire. However, I was raised within minmatar culture, watching minmatar news on minmatar holovision.

The minmatar culture was practically wiped out during the days of darkness. Many matari will try to argue that it has been recovered, that the culture is vibrant and strong, and the old way survive still. No. What survives now is fragments. Relics of a bygone age. The Minmatar people have lost more of their history then not. 700 years of slavery has a way of erasing things. The minmatar today are not the minmatar of the past. If one of those minmatar from before the day of darkness could see what has become of their people today, even were all of them free, they would weep for the lost art and culture and science, the heroes forgotten, their works erased.

The current culture is something else. After the day of darkness, the matari picked up the pieces they could, and began exploring what they could of their past. Modern Standard Matari, the language spoken by the majority of the population, is a testament to that. Much energy has gone to taking those few pieces we have of a very complex puzzle and filling in the blanks. But I believe the end result is a completely different image then it was originally.

So what is that new image of? It isn't pretty. It is a culture driven by war, and warriors. By battlecries and shouts for blood and vengeance. Quick to anger, quick to take revenge, long to forgive. And it is that culture that is impressed upon anyone imigrating into the Republic from the Empire or elsewhere. It is one of xenophobia, paranoia, fear, and hatred of anything 'not matari.' Many will try to disagree, say that we welcome our foreign brothers and sisters with open arms and all that. Its a lie. We dump them into slums and refugee camps. Every day there is sectarian violence committed against those of any religious faith other then the sort of hardline Matari warmongering anti-amarrianism. We have become a culture defined by trying to be not-Amarrian, and we have gone so far in the other direction that we have imposed our own form of authoritarianism. Mob rule. Those in power, in wealthy and predominant clans, don't share. They only bring into the fold those of the mindset they share. One of cultural supremecy and domination. Done not even in the name of religion, but in simply in their minds, 'fixing' the damage done by the Amarrians. Those they don't like, end up dead in alleyways. Trampled in mobs, begging for scraps on streetcorners, or living in overcrowded refugee camps, eating barely edible slop while huge portions of our GDP go towards a war that cannot be won. We are so focused on rescuing the slaves, that we don't care if the slaves we've already rescued starve to death. Those who have accepted the Amarrian culture are treated as either victims who must be inherently broken and need to be fixed, or treated like they are not 'really' Matari at all, since 'no real Matari would belong to the Amarrian faith.'

People talk about the oppression in the Empire, how the dissenting opinion is suppressed, how those who disagree with the majority opinion are silenced, and talk about how we're better then that, how we're somehow more civilized. The Minmatar Republic is a savage nation. The Amarrians created exactly the thing they were most afraid of.


This is more eloquently written than i could ever possibly have achieved.

The irreversible damage done to the matari is something i have been trying to put into words, but since i am one of those that hate and cannot for the life of me stop i suppose i couldnt.

The Amarrians dont seem to realize we were not always like this, 900 years free of war before the first slave raids began, Free of crime? no but not one nation or tribe raised arms against another for 900 years.

I fear it will take 9 millenia before the same can be said again.

But i believe we had to become this way to gain our freedom.

.....

Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#28 - 2012-08-30 20:37:05 UTC
Paul Oliver wrote:
Anyways I'm sure many think I'm the last person that should be saying this but could we please TRY to keep the arguing to a minimum atleast in this feed so we can have more dialogue like Emile Belfleur's?

Paul Oliver wrote:
,,!,, kiss it fundie

I see.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#29 - 2012-08-30 20:38:43 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
Paul Oliver wrote:
Anyways I'm sure many think I'm the last person that should be saying this but could we please TRY to keep the arguing to a minimum atleast in this feed so we can have more dialogue like Emile Belfleur's?

Paul Oliver wrote:
,,!,, kiss it fundie

I see.

I was trolled and I took it back. Can't say I didn't try.
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#30 - 2012-08-30 20:55:22 UTC
Horak Thor wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
Horak Thor wrote:

As for not lieing rodj, where does your information come from about the Ealur not wanting to be free? No doubt you watched some documentary on an Imperial broadcasted Holoreel, need i remind you to take such breainwashing propoganda ridden nonsense also with a pinch of salt.


What I actually said was that they are unsuited to freedom and in no need of "rescue" so please stop trying to put words into my mouth.

Quote:

And who decided the Ealur were genetically unsuited to freedom? Is it the Amarr's right to decide this? the Ealur survived perfectly fine for millenia on there own. Again brainwashed ignorance.


If you had done even the most basic of research you would know that the Ealur are incapable of being freed and would struggle to survive being let free, much like a stray dog released into the wild would quickly be devoured by wolves.


Its written by the Amarr you fool, look at what we had to do to become free, you clearly want to hold onto your slaves.


You asked for evidence and I supplied it - as I nearly always do.

I notice that you haven't supplied a single shred of it to support your views on this thread.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Amaki Mai
Doomheim
#31 - 2012-08-30 20:55:42 UTC
Horak Thor wrote:

This is more eloquently written than i could ever possibly have achieved.

The irreversible damage done to the matari is something i have been trying to put into words, but since i am one of those that hate and cannot for the life of me stop i suppose i couldnt.

The Amarrians dont seem to realize we were not always like this, 900 years free of war before the first slave raids began, Free of crime? no but not one nation or tribe raised arms against another for 900 years.

I fear it will take 9 millenia before the same can be said again.

But i believe we had to become this way to gain our freedom.


But you aren't free, you hold yourselves hostage with chains forged of your hate. And this time you're the slaves of people who don't even the objective of uplifting you and your term of servitude is without end.

The only slaves you can reclaim by force are those within the lawless warzone. The very terms of the fighting ensure that the regular Navy can't take part in it and so, therefore, isn't vulnerable to be targeted. Captain Riordan paints a very bleak picture of the fate of those you DO manage to capture and return to the Republic and I'm sure that picture is part of the reason that the Ammatar Mandate didn't do what you expected when their leaders turned traitor.
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#32 - 2012-08-30 21:06:09 UTC
Horak Thor wrote:
The Amarrians dont seem to realize we were not always like this, 900 years free of war before the first slave raids began, Free of crime? no but not one nation or tribe raised arms against another for 900 years.


I find myself struggling to believe this was the case.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#33 - 2012-08-30 21:39:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Mr. Belfleur,

I would say the fundamental issue the Caldari had, and continue to have with the Federation is not a dispute with the average Federal citizen but rather with the hypocrisy of the Senate and those elites who hold power. It is they who like cowards hide behind the masks of democracy and freedom and use their power to advance their own agendas to the detriment of other societies and people. The tragedy here is in the nature of government and in the Federation, the degree of centralization of power in its government and institutions means the average citizen becomes powerless to defend their rights and interests against those who wield power in authority. This was the crux of the issue behind the first war between the State and Federation, and the continued corruption of the Federal government by vested and private interests and their never ending pursuit of economic wealth and power is the cause of the current conflict.

There is no blinkered hatred against the Gallente as a people, culture or ethnicity but rather against the Gallente as a government that serves their interests above all else. Distinctions are made between the majority in the Federation, who in being weak and powerless are not to be held responsible for the actions and decisions of the elite few in positions of governance and authority who abuse it to serve their own ends. It is they, who in not wishing to listen to reason, in not willing to compromise, in not wanting accord with the Caldari State who submit the Federation to continued war and conflict where others are held hostage and must suffer and pay the price for the decisions of the few living comfortable lives away from struggle and hardship.

Those citizens in the Federation who are willing to listen to reason, are willing to compromise, and want to discuss accord with the Caldari State in good faith are to be extended the hand of friendship and mutual benefit.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-08-30 22:15:23 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Stitcher wrote:
You do, however, speak much that is demonstrably false


Feel free to try coming up with a demonstration of that.


Rodj Blake wrote:
The Ealurians... are genetically unsuited to freedom.


The genetic code of an organism (and persons by definition fall in that category, so please nobody take issue with it) is not a code like a programming code, but rather is the root molecule of a complex causal tree of sophisticated chemical reactions that result in an assortment of proteins, which assemble into cell structures and, in turn, cells which in turn form whole critters.

While this process can and does give an organism certain basic instincts such as "this is good to eat" and "run away from that smell", the concepts of freedom and slavery are both vastly more complicated than could be coded for genetically, let alone an innate preference for one over the other. Ergo, it is impossible for somebody to be "genetically unsuited" to freedom. Ergo, you have uttered a falsehood.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Azdan Amith
Doomheim
#35 - 2012-08-30 22:17:57 UTC
Horak Thor wrote:


The Amarrians dont seem to realize we were not always like this, 900 years free of war before the first slave raids began, Free of crime? no but not one nation or tribe raised arms against another for 900 years.


I have actually never read about a prolonged period of peace between the tribes prior to our arrival, I would be interested in seeing the source for this information.

~Archon Azdan Amith,  Order of Light's Retribution

Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#36 - 2012-08-30 22:32:26 UTC
Azdan Amith wrote:
Horak Thor wrote:


The Amarrians dont seem to realize we were not always like this, 900 years free of war before the first slave raids began, Free of crime? no but not one nation or tribe raised arms against another for 900 years.


I have actually never read about a prolonged period of peace between the tribes prior to our arrival, I would be interested in seeing the source for this information.



This is the only official CONCORD backed data. A lot of knowledge has been lost, but I do believe its fairly safe to say that a civilization spanning three solar systems and most of the planetary bodies within those solar systems would require a good deal of peace and economic prosperity to develop. The Matari were in fact an interstellar culture before the Amarrians arrived, that sort of development simply cannot occur in an environment where nations are constantly at war with one another.
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#37 - 2012-08-30 22:39:57 UTC
I'm afraid I disagree. A society can discover spaceflight and colonize planets while engaging in wars or other hostilities. The Eular are an excellent example of how nothing but peace leads to technological stagnation even in an environment with abundant resources.

Moreover, even if I accepted that peace was generally necessary to do these things, the specific claim was that the Minmatar had 900 years with not a single war or battle fought.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Arnulf Ogunkoya
Clan Ogunkoya
Electus Matari
#38 - 2012-08-30 22:52:45 UTC
Azdan Amith wrote:
Horak Thor wrote:


The Amarrians dont seem to realize we were not always like this, 900 years free of war before the first slave raids began, Free of crime? no but not one nation or tribe raised arms against another for 900 years.


I have actually never read about a prolonged period of peace between the tribes prior to our arrival, I would be interested in seeing the source for this information.


I could refer you to the relevant papers at various archeology departments.

However as the institutions involved are Federal or Republican I doubt you would accept them as evidence.

((I am not going to link to the timeline as it's unclear how much is IC and how much is OOC knowledge. I'm assuming some of it will show up in the IC studies though.))

The problem being the Empire had little interest in our history except where it helped it control and/or change us.

Regards, Arnulf Ogunkoya.

Faelan Maris
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-08-30 23:06:10 UTC
Captain Belfleur, you seem to have a decent grasp of the history of the break between our respective people, but I believe if you look at the deeper context you will realize that the Federation you live in today is a far different place than the one we Caldari faced 200 years ago. At that time power was held by the ethnic Gallente and used to limit the political and economic clout of the other member races. We had token representation in the Senate but no real ability to sway decisions. The more tolerant and open Federation you enjoy today is the result of centuries of long and hard-fought political and legal challenges by the other ethnicities that chose to stay. The Intaki probably deserve most of the credit, but the Mannar should not be forgotten, and neither should the courage of your own people to accept the changes with grace. Domestic backlash against the long and wasteful war between our peoples played a part too. The more recent integrations of the Jin-Mei and those Minmatar that chose the Federation over the Republic have brought their own challenges but those seem to be proceeding with less rancor.

It is my belief that had we been facing the modern Gallente Federation, then we would have come to accommodation rather than a bloody break. However we did not, and we chose a different path, to the lament of so many millions down the centuries.
Azdan Amith
Doomheim
#40 - 2012-08-30 23:37:00 UTC
I would agree that some level of cooperation was necessary to span three systems and develop interstellar travel but not that it precludes you from internal conflict for 900 years, Miss Riordan.

Mister Ogunkoya,

I wouldn't have asked for the sources if I wasn't interested in where the information was obtained from.

~Archon Azdan Amith,  Order of Light's Retribution