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Another Tech 2 Battle Ship??
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Dorian Tormak
RBON United
#21 - 2012-08-30 15:37:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Dorian Tormak
Hakaimono wrote:
Fix Marauders and Black Ops and this won't need to be discussed.
If anything, a second class of t2 destroyers and t2 battlecruisers would be nice, but not until a good time as passed after the racial split of the skills.
For dessies, I would like to see a min-marauder of some kind. Less gank, more tank and cargo plus utility slots.
For BCs, another pilot and myself we discussing the idea of an off-grid AOE mortar boat.

I agree they should fix Marauders and Black Ops.

I agree there should be a second class of Tech 2 Destroyers and Battlecruiser but I think it should come after they introduce Tier 2 Destroyers Pirate

I disagree that the next Tech 2 Destroyer should fill a role like the Marauders. That is a role that, logically, should be filled by a Tech 2 cruiser, since those are the real predecessors to Battleships, while the Destroyers are the predecessors to Battlecruisers. Maybe when they change HACs, they should keep the PvP ones like the Vagabond good at what they do (only buffed), and change the Muninn (and others of it's tier) to operate in a smaller Marauder type role. Just a suggestion off the top of my head, I stand by the rest of my post.

Holy Satanic Christ! This is a Goddamn Signature!
MushroomMushroom
State War Academy
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-08-30 15:45:22 UTC  |  Edited by: MushroomMushroom
The problem with a generally better T2 battleship variant is that there are no bigger subcap ships to balance it. AFs can be all around better then t1 frigs because they are balanced by the increased cost, higher SP requirements, and most importantly, that there are are many larger hulls that in the right circumstance will tear an AF apart. Same for HACs and other T2 cruisers (with possible exception of T3s), there are plenty of counters to most of them. Command ships have been nerfed to the point that they aren't really desirable outside of the command link role.

So what counters the new, more powerful, general purpose, T2 battleship?
Gabrielle Lamb
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2012-08-30 15:48:43 UTC
The only T2 BS variant I can personally see working would be a T2 Logistics battleship / mini-carrier. Either capable of fielding 5 heavy drones and having a Drone Damage bonus (for all races), using normal large remote repair. Or a "Marauder" setup where you get 4 double damage Large weapons, 4 large RR modules. But without the Marauders range bonuses.
Renier Gaden
Immortal Guides
#24 - 2012-08-30 17:38:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Renier Gaden
I like the T2 Logistics Battleship (Mini Carrier) suggestion.

I also like the T2 Command Battleship suggestion. Damage output on the Command Battleship should be no more than the T1 (maybe less), only add Links, and make it tougher so it can stay in the fight longer. If this proves to be too OP, then tone down the damage a bit more. This hull would be designed for the FC and/or target caller to fly.

I also like the (off topic) mortar suggestion, although I would implement it differently.
- It would be like a bomb, except that you could set the distance (time) it travels before it explodes, and the explosion radius would be smaller than a bomb (maybe 5km). The smaller area of effect would be to offset the increased targeting versatility. I also like the idea of allowing non-cloaky Destroyers to fit 1 of these models. It would be like a real-life mortar: easy to take out if you get close to it, tricky to aim at a distance, but devastating if it hits. Probably restrict it to Stealth Bombers and Destroyers. It would be OP fit on something tanky.

Edit: As for off grid use of the Mortar, you can use the Align To option to align to a fleet member in a cloaky ship near your target in order to aim, and use your directional scan to get the distance. If they don’t notice your incoming mortar shell show up on their overview you might get a hit even from off grid.
Dorian Tormak
RBON United
#25 - 2012-08-30 17:45:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Dorian Tormak
Gabrielle Lamb wrote:
The only T2 BS variant I can personally see working would be a T2 Logistics battleship / mini-carrier. Either capable of fielding 5 heavy drones and having a Drone Damage bonus (for all races), using normal large remote repair. Or a "Marauder" setup where you get 4 double damage Large weapons, 4 large RR modules. But without the Marauders range bonuses.

Why does there have to be a counter? That's stupid.

Edit

Oops, meant to quote this dude:


MushroomMushroom wrote:
The problem with a generally better T2 battleship variant is that there are no bigger subcap ships to balance it. AFs can be all around better then t1 frigs because they are balanced by the increased cost, higher SP requirements, and most importantly, that there are are many larger hulls that in the right circumstance will tear an AF apart. Same for HACs and other T2 cruisers (with possible exception of T3s), there are plenty of counters to most of them. Command ships have been nerfed to the point that they aren't really desirable outside of the command link role.

So what counters the new, more powerful, general purpose, T2 battleship?

Holy Satanic Christ! This is a Goddamn Signature!
Shane Joven
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2012-08-31 00:52:20 UTC
Dorian Tormak wrote:
Sigras wrote:
The problem is with your perception that the HACs are just "better cruisers" or the assault ships are just "better frigates" so you want "better battleships"

The HACs and assault ships are specialized ships (as all T2 ships are) with specialized roles (as all T2 ships should have). What would the specialized role for your new "heavy combat ship" be? and please dont say "being a better battleship"


If the HACs and AS are "specialized" as you say than the T2 Battleships would be specialized in the same way, just on BS level. Please tell me what the role of a HAC is and then I will tell you what the role of a Marauder should be.


I like this comment a lot.

I like the mini carrier idea also, sort of like a combat oriented Orca that so many people dearly want.
MushroomMushroom
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-08-31 01:10:29 UTC
Dorian Tormak wrote:
Gabrielle Lamb wrote:
The only T2 BS variant I can personally see working would be a T2 Logistics battleship / mini-carrier. Either capable of fielding 5 heavy drones and having a Drone Damage bonus (for all races), using normal large remote repair. Or a "Marauder" setup where you get 4 double damage Large weapons, 4 large RR modules. But without the Marauders range bonuses.

Why does there have to be a counter? That's stupid.

Edit

Oops, meant to quote this dude:


MushroomMushroom wrote:
The problem with a generally better T2 battleship variant is that there are no bigger subcap ships to balance it. AFs can be all around better then t1 frigs because they are balanced by the increased cost, higher SP requirements, and most importantly, that there are are many larger hulls that in the right circumstance will tear an AF apart. Same for HACs and other T2 cruisers (with possible exception of T3s), there are plenty of counters to most of them. Command ships have been nerfed to the point that they aren't really desirable outside of the command link role.

So what counters the new, more powerful, general purpose, T2 battleship?

Because a ship without any counter is OP. While blobbing can overcome rock/paper/scissors mechanics, those mechanics go a very long way towards balancing the blob. If you provide a ship that lacks any counter, how do you respond when your enemy brings more of them then you have?
Dorian Tormak
RBON United
#28 - 2012-08-31 05:20:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Dorian Tormak
MushroomMushroom wrote:
Because a ship without any counter is OP. While blobbing can overcome rock/paper/scissors mechanics, those mechanics go a very long way towards balancing the blob. If you provide a ship that lacks any counter, how do you respond when your enemy brings more of them then you have?

You run away, if there aren't any counters for them.

The same way there aren't any counters for pirate faction battleships, rite?

RITE?

Holy Satanic Christ! This is a Goddamn Signature!
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#29 - 2012-08-31 08:45:44 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
I would like to see Tier 3 Fleet Battleships with short range jump drives.



Me wants. Twisted


Because there isn't quite enough hotdropping in Eve already...


The amount of hotdropping that goes on is....minuscule. You clearly have 30 guys who regularly devote 2-3 hours a night to sitting around waiting for a target to get their bombers BLOPs dropped onto, and find out there is no target, or the target is too tough, etc. Yet they keep coming back to join you in this fruitless exercise night in and night out, because they are DUMB as dogturds.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Moonlit Raid
Doomheim
#30 - 2012-08-31 09:01:46 UTC
Shane Joven wrote:
Well, their isn't a defined roll of the Assault ship or HAC. Just a more expensive all around good frig/cruiser.

When choosing to advance from a Tier 1 Battle ship its limited mostly to Faction bought ships of pirate and Navy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON9TE9tA-4s

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.
Kaomi Zorbaz
Claint Industries
#31 - 2012-08-31 13:25:38 UTC
Navy issue Abaddon? Sign me up!
MushroomMushroom
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-08-31 14:35:58 UTC
Dorian Tormak wrote:

You run away, if there aren't any counters for them.

The same way there aren't any counters for pirate faction battleships, rite?

RITE?


In my experience, pirate faction battleships are very rare in anything bigger then small gang warfare. While they can be extremely powerful on a per ship basis, they are very expensive, typically easy to hit targets. Theorycraft a faction BS gang vs 50-75% the isk value of nado fleet and some suicide tackle, is not likely to end well for the faction BSes.
Dorian Tormak
RBON United
#33 - 2012-08-31 16:04:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Dorian Tormak
MushroomMushroom wrote:
Dorian Tormak wrote:

You run away, if there aren't any counters for them.

The same way there aren't any counters for pirate faction battleships, rite?

RITE?


In my experience, pirate faction battleships are very rare in anything bigger then small gang warfare. While they can be extremely powerful on a per ship basis, they are very expensive, typically easy to hit targets. Theorycraft a faction BS gang vs 50-75% the isk value of nado fleet and some suicide tackle, is not likely to end well for the faction BSes.

Okay, so we have now established that.

Now, what would be the difference between those and a useful Tech 2 Battleship? I imagine it should be similar to the differences between pirate frigates and Assault Ships. The Tech 2s might lose out on mobility and | or utility, but should gain in outright tank and damage (and maybe damage projection as well).

So what is wrong with that? Other than :butthurt:

Holy Satanic Christ! This is a Goddamn Signature!
Moonlit Raid
Doomheim
#34 - 2012-08-31 16:37:25 UTC
There isn't a single post on this entire forum that isn't teeming with butthurt.

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.
Dorian Tormak
RBON United
#35 - 2012-08-31 18:07:39 UTC
Moonlit Raid wrote:
There isn't a single post on this entire forum that isn't teeming with butthurt.

Perhaps it is CCP that is butt-hurt, and we are simply a reflection of their aching sphincters.

Anyway, all my posts are absolutely 100% butt-hurt free.

Holy Satanic Christ! This is a Goddamn Signature!
Shane Joven
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-08-31 20:21:16 UTC
MushroomMushroom wrote:
Dorian Tormak wrote:

You run away, if there aren't any counters for them.

The same way there aren't any counters for pirate faction battleships, rite?

RITE?


In my experience, pirate faction battleships are very rare in anything bigger then small gang warfare. While they can be extremely powerful on a per ship basis, they are very expensive, typically easy to hit targets. Theorycraft a faction BS gang vs 50-75% the isk value of nado fleet and some suicide tackle, is not likely to end well for the faction BSes.


Their expensive and rarely seen because of the way they are acquired. You can't build them in Null.
Kurfin
Kippers and Jam Developments
#37 - 2012-09-01 16:26:41 UTC
When the Marauders are overhauled it would be good a second marauder for each race with the secondary weapon systems used, torps for Amarr & Minnie, drones for Gallente and rails for Caldari.

Though one potential new role, capital killer. Similar to tier 3 BCs, oversized weapons so unable to effectively take on something there own size, but you'd need fewer to take down a cap than regular BSs. Handy for taking on your enemy on their home, cyno jammed, turf.
Seraph Minayin
Accounts Payable.
#38 - 2012-09-01 17:59:32 UTC
Shane Joven wrote:
MushroomMushroom wrote:
Dorian Tormak wrote:

You run away, if there aren't any counters for them.

The same way there aren't any counters for pirate faction battleships, rite?

RITE?


In my experience, pirate faction battleships are very rare in anything bigger then small gang warfare. While they can be extremely powerful on a per ship basis, they are very expensive, typically easy to hit targets. Theorycraft a faction BS gang vs 50-75% the isk value of nado fleet and some suicide tackle, is not likely to end well for the faction BSes.


Their expensive and rarely seen because of the way they are acquired. You can't build them in Null.


What? Of course you can build faction/pirate BSs in Null...

Lemming Fleet - First Admiral
Shane Joven
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2012-09-01 18:06:14 UTC
Seraph Minayin wrote:
Shane Joven wrote:
MushroomMushroom wrote:
Dorian Tormak wrote:

You run away, if there aren't any counters for them.

The same way there aren't any counters for pirate faction battleships, rite?

RITE?


In my experience, pirate faction battleships are very rare in anything bigger then small gang warfare. While they can be extremely powerful on a per ship basis, they are very expensive, typically easy to hit targets. Theorycraft a faction BS gang vs 50-75% the isk value of nado fleet and some suicide tackle, is not likely to end well for the faction BSes.


Their expensive and rarely seen because of the way they are acquired. You can't build them in Null.


What? Of course you can build faction/pirate BSs in Null...


What I mean is you can crank out other Tech 2 ships, pirate ships require LP points
Kasutra
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#40 - 2012-09-01 19:32:13 UTC
Shane Joven wrote:
What I mean is you can crank out other Tech 2 ships, pirate ships require LP points

You can get LP in null.

You can also just get the blueprints in a drop.

I have no idea what you're talking about.
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