These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Rookie System Page Update

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Pipa Porto
#201 - 2012-08-30 06:48:06 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
And Ding, off goes a light at The Hall of Justice GM HQ, allowing them to look into the situation, ban the bad guy, and help the newbie, limiting griefers to one bite at the apple and likely making their lives so miserable that they quit screwing with rookies.


Yeah, like creating trial accounts is difficult solution for the ban you just got...


Ever heard of an IP address? Or the fact that EVE sends CCP a Hardware profile of your computer? Get banned on enough trials and it's easy enough for CCP to just ban your main. You should read the whines the anti-botter blog's fished up.

Quote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Learn to read the OP. GMs are enforcing the nebulous rookie protection rules in systems that are not rookie systems.


Problem: you don't know all SoE epic arc systems.
Solution: go and do that epic arc and write down all systems you run missions.
Solution for griefers: force noobs or older players to tell you all the systems related to SoE epic arc "or else..."

Problem solved!

Btw, SoE epic arc is part of tutorial process.


Ok, so you'll be able to show the ruling where CCP has said that all of the SOE Epic Arc systems are Rookie systems and subject to Rookie System protections, right?

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems

Quote:
This is the list of systems that are considered Rookie systems.

.....

Sisters of EVE Epic Arc
Agent Systems
Arnon


Looks pretty clear to me. Arnon is a Rookie System, the rest are not.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#202 - 2012-08-30 06:50:33 UTC
Tesal wrote:
I rather like the current system, although it could use some coding as the Goon suggested. GM's need the flexibility to ban people who break the rules. For example, a newb a week old starts can flipping and killing the day old newbs. The GM can give him a warning and let him know he will get banned if he does it again. Likewise, if a newb hauls 40 plex and gets suicide ganked, the GM can look at the character and the circumstances and decide that its a clean kill, that the person is really not a newb. The GM can also ban people who can flip and should know better. Its a matter of discretion that is needed. GM's can look at patterns of behavior too. They can see if someone is blowing up multiple newb ships and can get a good idea as to whether or not to ban them.

I know I got blown up ratting in a starter system. I took from a can dropped by another player and he killed me. I also shot back to no effect. No big loss, I just got back in another rookie ship and kept playing. For me, the GM didn't need to do anything because I didn't know what a petition was, which is a problem. I was mad for a minute and kept playing. Luckily for me I didn't have a multimillion isk ship which was a huge amount of isk to me back then.



So you're saying that players engaging in valid gameplay against targets that may be valid aren't allowed to know if their target is valid until after they've acted against that target? And the result of unknowingly picking an invalid target is account affecting?

Sounds like a great plan.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#203 - 2012-08-30 07:28:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Pipa Porto wrote:
Ever heard of an IP address?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_server

Pipa Porto wrote:
Or the fact that EVE sends CCP a Hardware profile of your computer?


"My computer is unique." Lol

Pipa Porto wrote:
Get banned on enough trials and it's easy enough for CCP to just ban your main.


And before that happens you send all your stuff to one of your other characters and continue whatever you were doing...
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#204 - 2012-08-30 07:58:00 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Btw, SoE epic arc is part of tutorial process.

Since when?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Matriarch Prime
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#205 - 2012-08-30 08:04:16 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Tesal wrote:
I rather like the current system, although it could use some coding as the Goon suggested. GM's need the flexibility to ban people who break the rules. For example, a newb a week old starts can flipping and killing the day old newbs. The GM can give him a warning and let him know he will get banned if he does it again. Likewise, if a newb hauls 40 plex and gets suicide ganked, the GM can look at the character and the circumstances and decide that its a clean kill, that the person is really not a newb. The GM can also ban people who can flip and should know better. Its a matter of discretion that is needed. GM's can look at patterns of behavior too. They can see if someone is blowing up multiple newb ships and can get a good idea as to whether or not to ban them.

I know I got blown up ratting in a starter system. I took from a can dropped by another player and he killed me. I also shot back to no effect. No big loss, I just got back in another rookie ship and kept playing. For me, the GM didn't need to do anything because I didn't know what a petition was, which is a problem. I was mad for a minute and kept playing. Luckily for me I didn't have a multimillion isk ship which was a huge amount of isk to me back then.



So you're saying that players engaging in valid gameplay against targets that may be valid aren't allowed to know if their target is valid until after they've acted against that target? And the result of unknowingly picking an invalid target is account affecting?

Sounds like a great plan.


Sound reasonable enough when you realize that established players have no business in a noob system, unless the are helping noobies. Its not like you are going to run across a bunch of valid targets in the restricted systems. Baiting is questionable tactic to begin with. You want to pvp, go to null, or flag yourself for factional warfare.

I can't understand this notion to preserve edgecase asshatery at all cost as if it added valuable gameplay.

I like big guns. I can not lie. You other suckas can't deny. When I warp in, with an itty bity sig, with an arty in your face, you get sprung. You want to pull out your debuffs, 'cause you want to loot my stuff...deep, in a worm with nary, an escape but you can't stop staring. 'Cause, Oh crap!, Baby's got Point!
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#206 - 2012-08-30 08:06:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Btw, SoE epic arc is part of tutorial process.

Since when?


I haven't played EVE from 2003 so I don't know when tutorial system I used (second half of 2010) was created.
Pipa Porto
#207 - 2012-08-30 08:09:57 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
~~Pipa Porto~~"Ever heard of an IP address?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_server

~~Pipa Porto~~"Or the fact that EVE sends CCP a Hardware profile of your computer?"

"My computer is unique." Lol

~~Pipa Porto~~"Get banned on enough trials and it's easy enough for CCP to just ban your main.

And before that happens you send all your stuff to one of your other characters and continue whatever you were doing...


Your computer is identifiable as unique. Remember, CCP has access to your computer because you installed their software on it. Virtual machines will only do so much. Again, I direct you to the Nosy gamer.

For Example.

Since all your characters are connected to your computer, transferring things between your banned accounts is going to be kind of difficult.

And again,

Pipa Porto wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Btw, SoE epic arc is part of tutorial process.


Ok, so you'll be able to show the ruling where CCP has said that all of the SOE Epic Arc systems are Rookie systems and subject to Rookie System protections, right?


Gonna show that ruling?

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Matriarch Prime
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#208 - 2012-08-30 08:17:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Matriarch Prime
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems

Quote:
Sisters of EVE Epic Arc

Agent Systems
Arnon


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1476543#post1476543

GM Homonoia wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
Ok, this seems to be getting out of hand and our rulings are pulled out of context. So let me state this in the most simple terms possible.

1. New PLAYERS are protected by CCP in the systems listed here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems
2. No one is protected in systems outside of this list.
4. If new PLAYERS keep getting harassed the list of systems may be expanded.
7. In general do NOT mess around with new PLAYERS; anyone else is fair game.

The above guidelines are not up for discussion and they will not be further clarified. If you need further clarification you are probably doing something you should not be doing.



You just said in (2) that nobody is protected outside of rookie systems. Then you went on to say in (7), "Even though they're not protected outside of those systems, don't mess with them anywhere else, either " which, as a GM edict, could be interpreted as policy. So now you have two policy points that directly contradict each other, and (4) is the cherry on top - "or else".

You couldn't make it through a brief synopsis of your position without contradicting both yourself and policy as it is currently known. This should probably be taken as an indication that you need to rethink things.


We do not want you to mess with them, that does not mean we come down with the ban hammer if you do so outside the mentioned systems. Not everything is black and white. These points do not conflict; 4 and 7 simply mean that if the situation OUTSIDE those systems gets too bad we will take further action. Thus INSIDE the systems it isn't allowed period, OUTSIDE those systems it is allowed, but we may evaluate if things get out of hand.

I like big guns. I can not lie. You other suckas can't deny. When I warp in, with an itty bity sig, with an arty in your face, you get sprung. You want to pull out your debuffs, 'cause you want to loot my stuff...deep, in a worm with nary, an escape but you can't stop staring. 'Cause, Oh crap!, Baby's got Point!
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#209 - 2012-08-30 08:19:14 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Your computer is identifiable as unique. Remember, CCP has access to your computer because you installed their software on it. Virtual machines will only do so much. Again, I direct you to the Nosy gamer.

For Example.

Since all your characters are connected to your computer, transferring things between your banned accounts is going to be kind of difficult.


So, you don't have any idea what anonymous proxy is... And like changing that "computer profile" is going to be very difficult...

Pipa Porto wrote:
Gonna show that ruling?


Go and do the tutorial. At the end of your tutorial it tells you to go to Arnon and contact Sister Alitura.
Pipa Porto
#210 - 2012-08-30 08:21:40 UTC
Matriarch Prime wrote:
Sound reasonable enough when you realize that established players have no business in a noob system, unless the are helping noobies. Its not like you are going to run across a bunch of valid targets in the restricted systems. Baiting is questionable tactic to begin with. You want to pvp, go to null, or flag yourself for factional warfare.

I can't understand this notion to preserve edgecase asshatery at all cost as if it added valuable gameplay.



Except that, as detailed in the OP, the list of systems where these nebulous rules is increasing, and that Arnon (on the list) certainly has plenty of reasons for established players to visit.

Beyond that, EVE's not about opt-in PVP. Who are you to say what's legitimate gameplay.

Remember, we have one rule that's specific and clear "Can Baiting in Rookie Systems is bad," and that works pretty well.

For some reason, there's this idea that non-specific rules prohibiting unspecified behavior against unspecified players in unspecified systems is a good thing in a game where all of the behaviors that are possibly covered by these non-specific rules are perfectly legal against the players not covered by the rule and in areas not covered by the rule.

In other words, it is perfectly legal to shoot a non-rookie in a rookie system, or shoot a rookie in a non-rookie system. But, you can't tell who's who or where's where before you pull the trigger.

I've been advocating a very simple, very clear rule. No "messing with" people in Rookie systems at all. Where does that look like I'm trying to preserve any asshatery? An unclear rule provides those edgecase asshats a shield in the fuzziness of the rules because, as you said, real newbies don't know enough to file the petition needed to get the ball rolling under the current rules.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#211 - 2012-08-30 08:23:48 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Gonna show that ruling?


Go and do the tutorial. At the end of your tutorial it tells you to go to Arnon and contact Sister Alitura.


Ok, so quote the part of that that says that all SOE systems are protected as rookie systems.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#212 - 2012-08-30 08:24:52 UTC
Matriarch Prime wrote:

GM Homonoia wrote:
1. New PLAYERS are protected by CCP in the systems listed here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems
2. No one is protected in systems outside of this list.



Exactly.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Matriarch Prime
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#213 - 2012-08-30 08:27:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Matriarch Prime
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1467833#post1467833

Quote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
Tl;dr We are extending our rookie griefing rules to the system of Arnon.

See our wiki page on this subject: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems

History lesson
A long long time ago in a galaxy right here in the EVE universe we had a lot of new players who undocked for the very first time and were trying to figure out how to fly their ships. There was also a small group of players that wanted to pad their kill mails in the easiest way possible by preying upon those people who had not yet found the trigger to their civilian guns. This last group moved into the rookie starter systems and started killing our new recruits. This is not cool and so us game masters decided that messing with these newest and most helpless players was not allowed. A ban was put into place for griefing rookies in their starter systems.

Of course, these predators decided that rules should be followed to the letter and the spirit behind these rules can be ignored at will and moved to the career agent systems to do the exact same thing. Unfortunately this forced us to extend the ban on griefing rookies to these systems as well.

Present day
Now these scavengers of corpses have moved to the Sisters of EVE epic arc systems to do the exact same thing once again. This is forcing us to extend this ban to the Arnon system as well. Let me state very clearly that we do so with great reluctance. We do NOT like to impose rules and limitations like these upon the sandbox and we do not do so lightly. These measures are always debated hotly within our department and can often take multiple months of deliberation to make absolutely sure we are doing the right thing.

Let me state this very clearly here. We do NOT want experienced players to mess with rookies barely a week in. We are sure that you have worthier targets than these players who are still learning the ropes. If this behavior does not stop we may extend this rule to all systems that are covered in the Sisters of EVE epic arc. These systems are:

- Tar
- Harerget
- Hatakani
- Hek
- Lustrevik
- Tanoo
- Lisudeh
- Sosh
- Manarq
- Chainelant

If there is a ban on griefing rookies in these systems, will there also be a ban on stuff like hulk mining? And I presume anyone flying a BS/T3 is fair game right?

Not that I personally ever set foot in high sec, but I wouldn't want to see these systems become a safe haven for people who aren't rookies.


My post very clearly mentions rookies. We want everyone to let new players acclimate to the game before they are thrown in with the sharks. By all means, gank, steal from, scam and whatever else you want to experienced players. They should know the crack of the whip.


The whole arc will be protected IF it becomes a problem. You may risk a ban if you wish.

I like big guns. I can not lie. You other suckas can't deny. When I warp in, with an itty bity sig, with an arty in your face, you get sprung. You want to pull out your debuffs, 'cause you want to loot my stuff...deep, in a worm with nary, an escape but you can't stop staring. 'Cause, Oh crap!, Baby's got Point!
Matriarch Prime
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#214 - 2012-08-30 08:34:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Matriarch Prime
Pipa Porto wrote:
Matriarch Prime wrote:
Sound reasonable enough when you realize that established players have no business in a noob system, unless the are helping noobies. Its not like you are going to run across a bunch of valid targets in the restricted systems. Baiting is questionable tactic to begin with. You want to pvp, go to null, or flag yourself for factional warfare.

I can't understand this notion to preserve edgecase asshatery at all cost as if it added valuable gameplay.



Except that, as detailed in the OP, the list of systems where these nebulous rules is increasing, and that Arnon (on the list) certainly has plenty of reasons for established players to visit.

Beyond that, EVE's not about opt-in PVP. Who are you to say what's legitimate gameplay.

Remember, we have one rule that's specific and clear "Can Baiting in Rookie Systems is bad," and that works pretty well.

For some reason, there's this idea that non-specific rules prohibiting unspecified behavior against unspecified players in unspecified systems is a good thing in a game where all of the behaviors that are possibly covered by these non-specific rules are perfectly legal against the players not covered by the rule and in areas not covered by the rule.

In other words, it is perfectly legal to shoot a non-rookie in a rookie system, or shoot a rookie in a non-rookie system. But, you can't tell who's who or where's where before you pull the trigger.

I've been advocating a very simple, very clear rule. No "messing with" people in Rookie systems at all. Where does that look like I'm trying to preserve any asshatery? An unclear rule provides those edgecase asshats a shield in the fuzziness of the rules because, as you said, real newbies don't know enough to file the petition needed to get the ball rolling under the current rules.


I think the vagueness makes it an effective policy, since history has shown a willingness on the part of individuals to try and game the letter of the policy, which has only let to a "arms race" between those individuals and the GMs. The ruling makes it clear that you kill noobies outside protect systems. But do so at your own risk.

The ket part to note, and it is mention specificly, that the spirit of the policy is the rule, not the list of systems. And as such, changes will be made to ensure that the spirit is complied.

So, players can leave thier asshatery at the door when it comes to noobs. Which is the most sensible policy.

I like big guns. I can not lie. You other suckas can't deny. When I warp in, with an itty bity sig, with an arty in your face, you get sprung. You want to pull out your debuffs, 'cause you want to loot my stuff...deep, in a worm with nary, an escape but you can't stop staring. 'Cause, Oh crap!, Baby's got Point!
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#215 - 2012-08-30 08:34:30 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Ok, so quote the part of that that says that all SOE systems are protected as rookie systems.


I think you just got pwned.
William Walker
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#216 - 2012-08-30 09:03:54 UTC
All of this could have been avoided if you were in Nullsec. I told you!

ヽ(⌒∇⌒)ﾉ へ(゜∇、°)へ (◕‿◕✿)
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#217 - 2012-08-30 09:08:43 UTC
William Walker wrote:
All of this could have been avoided if you were in Nullsec. I told you!


I thought all griefers are alts of nullbears...
Pipa Porto
#218 - 2012-08-30 09:30:41 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Ok, so quote the part of that that says that all SOE systems are protected as rookie systems.


I think you just got pwned.


Pipa Porto wrote:
Matriarch Prime wrote:

GM Homonoia wrote:
1. New PLAYERS are protected by CCP in the systems listed here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems
2. No one is protected in systems outside of this list.



Exactly.



Whatever you say.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Pipa Porto
#219 - 2012-08-30 09:36:42 UTC
Matriarch Prime wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:
Matriarch Prime wrote:
Sound reasonable enough when you realize that established players have no business in a noob system, unless the are helping noobies. Its not like you are going to run across a bunch of valid targets in the restricted systems. Baiting is questionable tactic to begin with. You want to pvp, go to null, or flag yourself for factional warfare.

I can't understand this notion to preserve edgecase asshatery at all cost as if it added valuable gameplay.



Except that, as detailed in the OP, the list of systems where these nebulous rules is increasing, and that Arnon (on the list) certainly has plenty of reasons for established players to visit.

Beyond that, EVE's not about opt-in PVP. Who are you to say what's legitimate gameplay.

Remember, we have one rule that's specific and clear "Can Baiting in Rookie Systems is bad," and that works pretty well.

For some reason, there's this idea that non-specific rules prohibiting unspecified behavior against unspecified players in unspecified systems is a good thing in a game where all of the behaviors that are possibly covered by these non-specific rules are perfectly legal against the players not covered by the rule and in areas not covered by the rule.

In other words, it is perfectly legal to shoot a non-rookie in a rookie system, or shoot a rookie in a non-rookie system. But, you can't tell who's who or where's where before you pull the trigger.

I've been advocating a very simple, very clear rule. No "messing with" people in Rookie systems at all. Where does that look like I'm trying to preserve any asshatery? An unclear rule provides those edgecase asshats a shield in the fuzziness of the rules because, as you said, real newbies don't know enough to file the petition needed to get the ball rolling under the current rules.


I think the vagueness makes it an effective policy, since history has shown a willingness on the part of individuals to try and game the letter of the policy, which has only let to a "arms race" between those individuals and the GMs. The ruling makes it clear that you kill noobies outside protect systems. But do so at your own risk.

The ket part to note, and it is mention specificly, that the spirit of the policy is the rule, not the list of systems. And as such, changes will be made to ensure that the spirit is complied.

So, players can leave thier asshatery at the door when it comes to noobs. Which is the most sensible policy.


So define newbies so we can leave our asshatery at the door. Because right now, a player cannot tell who is a newbie and who is not a newbie.

Otherwise, the new policy is anybody will be banned for doing previously valid actions to anyone at any time. Great policy.

Suicide that tasty Industrial in Jita? Nope, might be a newbie.
Suicide the Retriever in the belt? Nope, might be a newbie.

All because newbie isn't defined, nor are the locations where they enjoy protection. Hek is on that new proposed list.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#220 - 2012-08-30 09:37:57 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Whatever you say.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1476543#post1476543

GM Homonoia wrote:
1. New PLAYERS are protected by CCP in the systems listed here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems
2. No one is protected in systems outside of this list.
4. If new PLAYERS keep getting harassed the list of systems may be expanded.
7. In general do NOT mess around with new PLAYERS; anyone else is fair game.


Also this part is important:

GM Homonoia wrote:
We do not want you to mess with them, that does not mean we come down with the ban hammer if you do so outside the mentioned systems. Not everything is black and white. These points do not conflict; 4 and 7 simply mean that if the situation OUTSIDE those systems gets too bad we will take further action. Thus INSIDE the systems it isn't allowed period, OUTSIDE those systems it is allowed, but we may evaluate if things get out of hand.