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Greifer Wardec and the problem

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Nick Bison
Bison Industrial Inc
Cat Scratch Fevers
#61 - 2012-05-27 00:43:40 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
You mean remove trolls which keep claiming that 72% of the eve population are in hisec, while completely ignoring the fact that 50% of those 72% are null/lowsec alts?

I can live with that.


Maybe remove the null/lowsec alts from HiSec.

Yeah, we can all live with that.

Nothing clever at this time.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2012-05-27 00:49:36 UTC
I guess hisec didn't want that moongoo, PI-materials or ABCM-sourced minerals anyways.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#63 - 2012-05-27 01:03:06 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
I guess hisec didn't want that moongoo, PI-materials or ABCM-sourced minerals anyways.


- T1 ships and caps are just fine.

- Hi sec produces enough PI-materials to cover its needs. Just see how prices tanked due to oversupply.

- Gun mining works for high end minerals, grav sites also give a bit. No need for morphite since no moongoo = no T2 ships anyway.

- There is moongoo in low sec as well. And high ends. Just saying.

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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2012-05-27 01:22:42 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
- Hi sec produces enough PI-materials to cover its needs. Just see how prices tanked due to oversupply.

Do you have any numbers to back this up? Because personally I'd hazard a guess that nullsec is the main PI provider, and hisec is used more for factory planets.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
- Gun mining works for high end minerals, grav sites also give a bit. No need for morphite since no moongoo = no T2 ships anyway.

There's still gunmining somewhere? I thought that had been mostly nerfed, or at least gave much less minerals than you'd get from straight mining. As to no morphite consumption, true enough, I should've remembered that.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
- There is moongoo in low sec as well. And high ends. Just saying.

It would be interesting to see if there'd be more people willing to go for the lowsec moons if nullsec were to boicott hisec, to be honest. It'd still be vastly insufficient to cover demand, though.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#65 - 2012-05-27 06:12:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Lord Zim wrote:

Do you have any numbers to back this up? Because personally I'd hazard a guess that nullsec is the main PI provider, and hisec is used more for factory planets.


Feel free to read the material I posted on MD some days ago.
Also, hi sec indeed used to be heavily factory based but the PI tax affected its viability a lot.


Lord Zim wrote:

There's still gunmining somewhere? I thought that had been mostly nerfed, or at least gave much less minerals than you'd get from straight mining. As to no morphite consumption, true enough, I should've remembered that.


Feel free to read the material and graphs I posted on MD some days ago.
In particular, meta 3 and 4 have been heavily affected by the recent meta zero removal. Feel free to check the post(s) on this topic on MD, expecially about how / why they are tanking (it looks like their drop rate increased).


Lord Zim wrote:

It would be interesting to see if there'd be more people willing to go for the lowsec moons if nullsec were to boicott hisec, to be honest. It'd still be vastly insufficient to cover demand, though.


WH? Don't really care, I have all of 5-6 T2 ships and am not concerned so much.
Even the most produced T2 ship - Hulk - is not so essential.
I have tested covetor vs Hulk on some of my alts and covetor gets up to -15% yield vs a similarly fitted Hulk. Nothing too dramatic.

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#66 - 2012-05-27 08:55:09 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Even the most produced T2 ship - Hulk - is not so essential.
I have tested covetor vs Hulk on some of my alts and covetor gets up to -15% yield vs a similarly fitted Hulk. Nothing too dramatic.

The covetor is pretty good for its price.

But you see... ~max yield~ is what gets the miners going <3 <3
Luv to use tech-requiring ships.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Ziranda Hakuli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2012-05-27 19:48:25 UTC
Looks like we are slowly digressing from the original Topic. hence the name "Greifer Wadec and the problem"

so many good ideas some not so good a few tweaks on others and the like.

Basicaly i think the idea has pretty much came to War Target playing the station game and a few ideas for solutions
1> Wartargets under fire are not able to dock into the station.
2> Disengaging from battle this is known to happen but should take longer then the 1 minute. lets go for 5
3> Kicked out from station 30km would be a cluster **** so its not hard to do a random range when undocking so lets go 15-30km or roulette if CCP re-skins the stations with multiple exits/Entrance.

I know it was mentioned earlier in the discussion about the freighters jump freighters and the like should remain able to dock as it is with the normal set up CCP has right now.......UNLESS your a war target then you deserve to get blown up.

Lets see if we can manage to get a few more good ideas and possible tweaking and see what we can manage to get
Kyshonuba
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#68 - 2012-05-29 18:00:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyshonuba
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:
Looks like we are slowly digressing from the original Topic. hence the name "Greifer Wadec and the problem"

so many good ideas some not so good a few tweaks on others and the like.

Basicaly i think the idea has pretty much came to War Target playing the station game and a few ideas for solutions
1> Wartargets under fire are not able to dock into the station.
2> Disengaging from battle this is known to happen but should take longer then the 1 minute. lets go for 5
3> Kicked out from station 30km would be a cluster **** so its not hard to do a random range when undocking so lets go 15-30km or roulette if CCP re-skins the stations with multiple exits/Entrance.

I know it was mentioned earlier in the discussion about the freighters jump freighters and the like should remain able to dock as it is with the normal set up CCP has right now.......UNLESS your a war target then you deserve to get blown up.

Lets see if we can manage to get a few more good ideas and possible tweaking and see what we can manage to get


or .....

Lets see, if this kind of Dock/Undock Wargame starts to annoy more player, which will then start similar threads. Roll

or .......

make a new thread in "Features & Ideas Discussion" or in "Assembly Hall" and see if you gain further attention.
I think those subforums have lesser "spam-content" so your concern wont be burried in a mere hour.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#69 - 2012-05-29 18:07:08 UTC
Nick Bison wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
You mean remove trolls which keep claiming that 72% of the eve population are in hisec, while completely ignoring the fact that 50% of those 72% are null/lowsec alts?

I can live with that.


Maybe remove the null/lowsec alts from HiSec.

Yeah, we can all live with that.



Actually....


If I sent money to a known criminal or terrorist with that knowledge and knowing support for more terrorist or criminal activity I would be in big trouble.

So... how can a high sec grinder send ISK to a -10 bandit without some security loss or fines?


Wonder what would happen (besides an ocean of tears)?

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Ziranda Hakuli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2012-05-29 19:24:39 UTC
Kyshonuba wrote:
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:
Looks like we are slowly digressing from the original Topic. hence the name "Greifer Wadec and the problem"

so many good ideas some not so good a few tweaks on others and the like.

Basicaly i think the idea has pretty much came to War Target playing the station game and a few ideas for solutions
1> Wartargets under fire are not able to dock into the station.
2> Disengaging from battle this is known to happen but should take longer then the 1 minute. lets go for 5
3> Kicked out from station 30km would be a cluster **** so its not hard to do a random range when undocking so lets go 15-30km or roulette if CCP re-skins the stations with multiple exits/Entrance.

I know it was mentioned earlier in the discussion about the freighters jump freighters and the like should remain able to dock as it is with the normal set up CCP has right now.......UNLESS your a war target then you deserve to get blown up.

Lets see if we can manage to get a few more good ideas and possible tweaking and see what we can manage to get


or .....

Lets see, if this kind of Dock/Undock Wargame starts to annoy more player, which will then start similar threads. Roll

or .......

make a new thread in "Features & Ideas Discussion" or in "Assembly Hall" and see if you gain further attention.
I think those subforums have lesser "spam-content" so your concern wont be burried in a mere hour.


We both know that posting a thread in "Features & Ideas Discussion" is a place where suggestions go to die. so i went and finally posted it in "Assembly Hall" and see what will happen.

Thank you
Less Bludmoon
Pain for Glory
#71 - 2012-05-31 19:38:49 UTC
I'm in favor of a longer timer or spit farther from a station(if undock location is randomized) whilst under wardec.

While fundamentally meant to solve a High Sec problem, it would be nice to have some kind of perks to war decs in a low or null sec conflicts other than just pursuing them into high sec. Adding a couple ups and downs to being in a war dec might entice people of the null to pay the ISK for a dec, if it would help them in some way.

Or if not, maybe just make it an Empire Space thing. Giving PvP corps more action, and low lives more to think about.
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2012-06-01 02:23:36 UTC
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:
Looks like we are slowly digressing from the original Topic. hence the name "Greifer Wadec and the problem"

so many good ideas some not so good a few tweaks on others and the like.

Basicaly i think the idea has pretty much came to War Target playing the station game and a few ideas for solutions
1> Wartargets under fire are not able to dock into the station.
2> Disengaging from battle this is known to happen but should take longer then the 1 minute. lets go for 5
3> Kicked out from station 30km would be a cluster **** so its not hard to do a random range when undocking so lets go 15-30km or roulette if CCP re-skins the stations with multiple exits/Entrance.

I know it was mentioned earlier in the discussion about the freighters jump freighters and the like should remain able to dock as it is with the normal set up CCP has right now.......UNLESS your a war target then you deserve to get blown up.

Lets see if we can manage to get a few more good ideas and possible tweaking and see what we can manage to get

You again? I thought we pointed out how bad your ideas were before.

OK - lets do this really slowly...

1) Target is being shot cannot dock whilst 2) a target who is trying to disengage can dock, but only after 5 minutes if they have aggressed.

See the fail in your logic? Freighter cannot shoot, so should be able to immediately dock as per YOUR logic for 2). However due to 1), they cannot.

Alternatively, a person is kicked out as per 3). WT gets a point and start shooting whilst person burns back to station. But they can't dock due to 1)

2) Random undocks will make instra warping a nightmare. Select the wrong one and you don't instra warp, you align to something on the other side of the station and get pointed...
BTW - How many large cargo handling space stations have you seen with multiple exits? Babylon 5? Nope. Stardock (Star Trek)? Nope.
Ziranda Hakuli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2012-06-02 03:30:17 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:
Looks like we are slowly digressing from the original Topic. hence the name "Greifer Wadec and the problem"

so many good ideas some not so good a few tweaks on others and the like.

Basicaly i think the idea has pretty much came to War Target playing the station game and a few ideas for solutions
1> Wartargets under fire are not able to dock into the station.
2> Disengaging from battle this is known to happen but should take longer then the 1 minute. lets go for 5
3> Kicked out from station 30km would be a cluster **** so its not hard to do a random range when undocking so lets go 15-30km or roulette if CCP re-skins the stations with multiple exits/Entrance.

I know it was mentioned earlier in the discussion about the freighters jump freighters and the like should remain able to dock as it is with the normal set up CCP has right now.......UNLESS your a war target then you deserve to get blown up.

Lets see if we can manage to get a few more good ideas and possible tweaking and see what we can manage to get

You again? I thought we pointed out how bad your ideas were before.

OK - lets do this really slowly...

1) Target is being shot cannot dock whilst 2) a target who is trying to disengage can dock, but only after 5 minutes if they have aggressed.

See the fail in your logic? Freighter cannot shoot, so should be able to immediately dock as per YOUR logic for 2). However due to 1), they cannot.

Alternatively, a person is kicked out as per 3). WT gets a point and start shooting whilst person burns back to station. But they can't dock due to 1)

2) Random undocks will make instra warping a nightmare. Select the wrong one and you don't instra warp, you align to something on the other side of the station and get pointed...
BTW - How many large cargo handling space stations have you seen with multiple exits? Babylon 5? Nope. Stardock (Star Trek)? Nope.


I think that's the idea or did you miss the train on this and yes i know it would be interesting without the insta warp undock thing.
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2012-06-02 03:33:34 UTC
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:
Har Harrison wrote:
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:
Looks like we are slowly digressing from the original Topic. hence the name "Greifer Wadec and the problem"

so many good ideas some not so good a few tweaks on others and the like.

Basicaly i think the idea has pretty much came to War Target playing the station game and a few ideas for solutions
1> Wartargets under fire are not able to dock into the station.
2> Disengaging from battle this is known to happen but should take longer then the 1 minute. lets go for 5
3> Kicked out from station 30km would be a cluster **** so its not hard to do a random range when undocking so lets go 15-30km or roulette if CCP re-skins the stations with multiple exits/Entrance.

I know it was mentioned earlier in the discussion about the freighters jump freighters and the like should remain able to dock as it is with the normal set up CCP has right now.......UNLESS your a war target then you deserve to get blown up.

Lets see if we can manage to get a few more good ideas and possible tweaking and see what we can manage to get

You again? I thought we pointed out how bad your ideas were before.

OK - lets do this really slowly...

1) Target is being shot cannot dock whilst 2) a target who is trying to disengage can dock, but only after 5 minutes if they have aggressed.

See the fail in your logic? Freighter cannot shoot, so should be able to immediately dock as per YOUR logic for 2). However due to 1), they cannot.

Alternatively, a person is kicked out as per 3). WT gets a point and start shooting whilst person burns back to station. But they can't dock due to 1)

2) Random undocks will make instra warping a nightmare. Select the wrong one and you don't instra warp, you align to something on the other side of the station and get pointed...
BTW - How many large cargo handling space stations have you seen with multiple exits? Babylon 5? Nope. Stardock (Star Trek)? Nope.


I think that's the idea or did you miss the train on this and yes i know it would be interesting without the insta warp undock thing.

Did you miss the point where I explained how the concepts were mutually exclusive meaning you could NEVER dock???
What happens if they aren't under actual fire, just receiving aggression. E.g. Being pointed? What if the ship doing it can orbit you faster than you can fly. You can't dock to break the lock and you can't warp away or burn out of range... Do you SEE the issue here and why the ideas presented as is are dumb and don't work? If not, I give up trying to explain it a third time...
Ziranda Hakuli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2012-06-02 03:41:17 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:
Har Harrison wrote:
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:
Looks like we are slowly digressing from the original Topic. hence the name "Greifer Wadec and the problem"

so many good ideas some not so good a few tweaks on others and the like.

Basicaly i think the idea has pretty much came to War Target playing the station game and a few ideas for solutions
1> Wartargets under fire are not able to dock into the station.
2> Disengaging from battle this is known to happen but should take longer then the 1 minute. lets go for 5
3> Kicked out from station 30km would be a cluster **** so its not hard to do a random range when undocking so lets go 15-30km or roulette if CCP re-skins the stations with multiple exits/Entrance.

I know it was mentioned earlier in the discussion about the freighters jump freighters and the like should remain able to dock as it is with the normal set up CCP has right now.......UNLESS your a war target then you deserve to get blown up.

Lets see if we can manage to get a few more good ideas and possible tweaking and see what we can manage to get

You again? I thought we pointed out how bad your ideas were before.

OK - lets do this really slowly...

1) Target is being shot cannot dock whilst 2) a target who is trying to disengage can dock, but only after 5 minutes if they have aggressed.

See the fail in your logic? Freighter cannot shoot, so should be able to immediately dock as per YOUR logic for 2). However due to 1), they cannot.

Alternatively, a person is kicked out as per 3). WT gets a point and start shooting whilst person burns back to station. But they can't dock due to 1)

2) Random undocks will make instra warping a nightmare. Select the wrong one and you don't instra warp, you align to something on the other side of the station and get pointed...
BTW - How many large cargo handling space stations have you seen with multiple exits? Babylon 5? Nope. Stardock (Star Trek)? Nope.


I think that's the idea or did you miss the train on this and yes i know it would be interesting without the insta warp undock thing.

Did you miss the point where I explained how the concepts were mutually exclusive meaning you could NEVER dock???
What happens if they aren't under actual fire, just receiving aggression. E.g. Being pointed? What if the ship doing it can orbit you faster than you can fly. You can't dock to break the lock and you can't warp away or burn out of range... Do you SEE the issue here and why the ideas presented as is are dumb and don't work? If not, I give up trying to explain it a third time...


You seem to have mis read something. WAR TARGETS.......you know that thing called a WarDEc. where someone in another corp/alliance decides to declare war on your corp.

Do i need to keep going on or do i need to restart the thread just for you cause you just annoyed my smartass side. hey i know look at the topic and read it a few times till you understand THE TITLE

its a drunk night
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2012-06-02 06:42:03 UTC
Dude - WAR TARGETS!!!!

Guess what. It makes no difference? The point stands that you have now given a griefing mechanic with no counter except trying a logoffski, at which point they can just decide to gank and pod you while you are offline after scanning you down!!!

Or are you going to tell me people don't undock industrials/freighters/mining barges and other such ships in war????

CCP is NOT going to implement your stupid ideas as they open up too many options for griefing and pulling douch acts...
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#77 - 2012-06-02 06:47:54 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
you have now given a griefing mechanic with no counter except trying a logoffski

Dropping in to say: insta-warp spots.

But yes, OP's idea is still bad.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#78 - 2012-08-29 01:10:24 UTC
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:
So i been seeing a slight problem with what CCP wants to do for this summer of burning ships and the like. Greifers are running amok it looks like. they wardec a corp/alliance that out numbers them 10 to 1 and station spin when the defenders show up with 2 or 3 ships to shoot them or play the station game of undocking get shot at redock or engage for a shots then do the disengage thing and dock back up doing this multiple times. this 30 seconds of disengaging needs to change something i think everyone would enjoy the idea.

As the idea
1> The aggressor(declared war) corp/alliance should have a 5 minute timer before they can re dock
2> Defender Corp would have the 30 second disengaging timer
3> If War is declared mutual then its 5 minute timer for all parties.

this way folks can destroy the aggressing corp/alliance would have to actually commit to a fight and not play the station docking game.



No, just bring back 'kick out stations'.

When you undock, you start out at least 15K from the station.

That way, anyone who undocks commits to the fight.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#79 - 2012-08-29 01:13:59 UTC
Been what? About a month now since the last necroban?

Mr Epeen Cool
ISD TYPE40
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#80 - 2012-08-29 03:45:50 UTC
Because Necro is bad.

[b]ISD Type40 Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]