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Dual Ancillary Shield Booster Everything
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Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2012-08-28 23:41:15 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Garreth Vlox wrote:

Are you even reading my posts?

If he can't shoot you then who ******* cares how long he can tank you?
He has to reload the device.
Once he runs out he is ****** and you can't die while holding him if he can't shoot.


I agree that you can do this to a Ferox. It's my biggest concern with people doing it on a Ferox. You cannot, however, do this to ships that don't require capacitor to fire. Furthermore, a nos is usually a pretty decent counter to non-overwhelming neuts. But no, the point of the exercise was to see how long he could hold up.

And the answer to that is 2600 DPS for 4 minutes and 20 seconds.

-Liang


The point of your exercise was to prove that they can't be countered because they are overpowered.

I just gave you the counter but you are so busy hating it all you can do is say well fine it works on a ferox but not another boat, you're right I'd have to use a different plan to kill a non cap using gun ship, but there's ways to do that too if you actually look for a way to do it. Yes they need to be adjusted, so does EVERY MOD EVER ADDED TO THE GAME, its called development. But just because it gives you a very specific advantage does not in any way make it overpowered or in need of a nerf.

I get that you despise this mod, I think everyone reading this thread has figured that out, but if you would stop crying about the unfairness and look at it logically you will see it is like everything else in the entire game it has its upside and its downside.

The LULZ Boat.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#62 - 2012-08-28 23:45:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Garreth Vlox wrote:

The point of your exercise was to prove that they can't be countered because they are overpowered.

I just gave you the counter but you are so busy hating it all you can do is say well fine it works on a ferox but not another boat, you're right I'd have to use a different plan to kill a non cap using gun ship, but there's ways to do that too if you actually look for a way to do it. Yes they need to be adjusted, so does EVERY MOD EVER ADDED TO THE GAME, its called development. But just because it gives you a very specific advantage does not in any way make it overpowered or in need of a nerf.


I do believe you weren't on vent so you claiming why we did a particular test is pretty hilarious. Again: the point of the exercise was for him to find out how long he could hold out in a practical PVP environment. And if it were simply development I wouldn't really mind. However, all that's really happened has been ASBs becoming yet another near must-have mod.

They need toned down, and they will be toned down.

Quote:

I get that you despise this mod, I think everyone reading this thread has figured that out, but if you would stop crying about the unfairness and look at it logically you will see it is like everything else in the entire game it has its upside and its downside.


Sure, it has down sides. His poor Ferox only tanked 700k effective damage before we called it off as obvious he was going to go down. :( :( :(

-Liang

Ed: Also, the only thing that I hate about this mod is that it removes almost all other choices from small gang combat. Fit ASB or go home.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2012-08-28 23:59:21 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Garreth Vlox wrote:

The point of your exercise was to prove that they can't be countered because they are overpowered.

I just gave you the counter but you are so busy hating it all you can do is say well fine it works on a ferox but not another boat, you're right I'd have to use a different plan to kill a non cap using gun ship, but there's ways to do that too if you actually look for a way to do it. Yes they need to be adjusted, so does EVERY MOD EVER ADDED TO THE GAME, its called development. But just because it gives you a very specific advantage does not in any way make it overpowered or in need of a nerf.


I do believe you weren't on vent so you claiming why we did a particular test is pretty hilarious. Again: the point of the exercise was for him to find out how long he could hold out in a practical PVP environment. And if it were simply development I wouldn't really mind. However, all that's really happened has been ASBs becoming yet another near must-have mod.

They need toned down, and they will be toned down.

Quote:

I get that you despise this mod, I think everyone reading this thread has figured that out, but if you would stop crying about the unfairness and look at it logically you will see it is like everything else in the entire game it has its upside and its downside.


Sure, it has down sides. His poor Ferox only tanked 700k effective damage before we called it off as obvious he was going to go down. :( :( :(

-Liang


I could take this conversation until riiiiiiiiight here: "practical PVP environment"

Not a single part of the discussion we have had represents what live unexpected pvp works like, besides my post about fitting ships that complement each other. Every other comment has been something to do with the theory of that tank for that boat in a very specialized controlled setting against a known number of enemies, and assuming it was not in a WH where the effects of the system change everything.

Also: "I do believe you weren't on vent so you claiming why we did a particular test is pretty hilarious." You first few comments referencing test were about how that test showed the mod was overpowered. I can only claim to know what you tell me.

The LULZ Boat.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#64 - 2012-08-29 00:20:01 UTC
Garreth Vlox wrote:

I could take this conversation until riiiiiiiiight here: "practical PVP environment"

Not a single part of the discussion we have had represents what live unexpected pvp works like, besides my post about fitting ships that complement each other. Every other comment has been something to do with the theory of that tank for that boat in a very specialized controlled setting against a known number of enemies, and assuming it was not in a WH where the effects of the system change everything.

Also: "I do believe you weren't on vent so you claiming why we did a particular test is pretty hilarious." You first few comments referencing test were about how that test showed the mod was overpowered. I can only claim to know what you tell me.


I'm not sure what part of having 2 gank canes and a nano Ishtar in typical PVP setups beating on you doesn't look like a PVP environment? Furthermore, why should the reason we were doing this test have any bearing on whether the outcome illustrates just how overpowered the module is?

At any rate: 2600 DPS for 4 minutes and 20 seconds. The module is overpowered, and it will be adjusted.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2012-08-29 00:33:34 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Garreth Vlox wrote:

I could take this conversation until riiiiiiiiight here: "practical PVP environment"

Not a single part of the discussion we have had represents what live unexpected pvp works like, besides my post about fitting ships that complement each other. Every other comment has been something to do with the theory of that tank for that boat in a very specialized controlled setting against a known number of enemies, and assuming it was not in a WH where the effects of the system change everything.

Also: "I do believe you weren't on vent so you claiming why we did a particular test is pretty hilarious." You first few comments referencing test were about how that test showed the mod was overpowered. I can only claim to know what you tell me.


I'm not sure what part of having 2 gank canes and a nano Ishtar in typical PVP setups beating on you doesn't look like a PVP environment? Furthermore, why should the reason we were doing this test have any bearing on whether the outcome illustrates just how overpowered the module is?

At any rate: 2600 DPS for 4 minutes and 20 seconds. The module is overpowered, and it will be adjusted.

-Liang


How is it not an accurate PVP enviroment? ... let me think...

What are the chances someone fighting you solo won't call in his gang buddy or tell his friend to burn down for some free kills cause he's "holding his tank for 4+ minutes"?

You have the chance of other players jumping into the fight and changing the odds.

Rats can warp in an add DPS to one side or the other.

You didn't have to catch and tackle your friend you just started shooting at each other from optimal ranges for your setups. And unless that ishtar is Micro fitted its not tackling anything so then you have a BC trying to tackle a BC, 50/50 at best unless the guy getting tackled wants to be tackled or is just plain dumb.

Your entire argument is based on the module you letting you tank for 4 minutes which you have stated several times is over powered and not fair.

You are letting your tunnel vision focus on the mod, not what it does and what that means in anything other than 1 on 1 2 on 2 fights.

And you keep referring to the 4 minute tank time and then saying its not all your talking about. If its not all your talking about stop repeating it every other post and prove it.

We have both stated the mod needs work, I would like to see it adjusted meaning minor changes, you seem to want CCP to hit it with the nerf bat till its as useless as as a shield booster in PVP.

I'm not against saying your right or we have different ideas on how to change the mod I just want to see you say something other than bla bla bla 4 minute tank bla bla bla nerf it.

The LULZ Boat.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#66 - 2012-08-29 00:45:05 UTC
Garreth Vlox wrote:

What are the chances someone fighting you solo won't call in his gang buddy or tell his friend to burn down for some free kills cause he's "holding his tank for 4+ minutes"?


You seem to have figured out why we were testing his tank. Amazing.

Quote:

You didn't have to catch and tackle your friend you just started shooting at each other from optimal ranges for your setups. And unless that ishtar is Micro fitted its not tackling anything so then you have a BC trying to tackle a BC, 50/50 at best unless the guy getting tackled wants to be tackled or is just plain dumb.


Sometimes people don't really mind getting tackled. That's usually me - but that particular fit was meant for kiting with drone damage mods.

Quote:

Your entire argument is based on the module you letting you tank for 4 minutes which you have stated several times is over powered and not fair.

You are letting your tunnel vision focus on the mod, not what it does and what that means in anything other than 1 on 1 2 on 2 fights.

And you keep referring to the 4 minute tank time and then saying its not all your talking about. If its not all your talking about stop repeating it every other post and prove it.


No, my entire argument is that it lets people do things that kinda break the game. Your defense of "just wait for the minute reload" argument just doesn't hold any water when people are out there tanking 2600 DPS for 4 minutes in a BC. The module itself is so powerful that in small gangs it's very much becoming "Fit ASB or go home". A T2 fit/T1 rigged dual ASB Myrmidon is better in every single way than a triple rep deadspace fit/T2 rigged Myrmidon.

CCP Fozzie was exactly correct when he said that it improved the active tanking situation somewhat. After all, more people are active tanking than ever before. However, it also became a Must Fit Module and people are fitting them to literally everything. Hell I am fitting them to literally everything.

ASB Executioners, ASB Atrons, ASB Cyclones, ASB Feroxes, ASB Drakes, ASB Talsoes, ASB Oracles, ASB Hyperions, ASB ******* everything. And so is everyone else.

Quote:

We have both stated the mod needs work, I would like to see it adjusted meaning minor changes, you seem to want CCP to hit it with the nerf bat till its as useless as as a shield booster in PVP.

I'm not against saying your right or we have different ideas on how to change the mod I just want to see you say something other than bla bla bla 4 minute tank bla bla bla nerf it.


I want CCP to hammer it with the nerfbat, yes. That's because the entire concept behind the ASB is utterly broken. It tanks better than a deadspace rep, eliminates the need for a cap booster, renders you immune to neuts, frees up a slot, and is super easy on fittings. I've ranted about this problem at length. It needs changed pretty dramatically.

Also, saying that it's as useless as a shield booster in PVP is... well, funny. I've got 5 PVP videos out that feature active tanking and kicking the **** out of gangs that both outnumber us as well as outship us. I KNOW how effective active tanking was - and even old style active tanking is far more effective than you really give it credit for.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Klown Walk
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#67 - 2012-08-29 00:45:11 UTC
And how much dps does your friend do with 2 x-large boosters?, I could probably tank it with a single medium armor rep.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#68 - 2012-08-29 00:53:46 UTC
Klown Walk wrote:
And how much dps does your friend do with 2 x-large boosters?, I could probably tank it with a single medium armor rep.


You know, I'm not really sure what kind of DPS he was putting out. It wasn't a dual XL setup so I'd estimate he's putting out 400-500 DPS. I'd have to see if I have the fit saved somewhere and run it through EFT.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2012-08-29 01:10:10 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Garreth Vlox wrote:

What are the chances someone fighting you solo won't call in his gang buddy or tell his friend to burn down for some free kills cause he's "holding his tank for 4+ minutes"?


You seem to have figured out why we were testing his tank. Amazing.

Quote:

You didn't have to catch and tackle your friend you just started shooting at each other from optimal ranges for your setups. And unless that ishtar is Micro fitted its not tackling anything so then you have a BC trying to tackle a BC, 50/50 at best unless the guy getting tackled wants to be tackled or is just plain dumb.


Sometimes people don't really mind getting tackled. That's usually me - but that particular fit was meant for kiting with drone damage mods.

Quote:

Your entire argument is based on the module you letting you tank for 4 minutes which you have stated several times is over powered and not fair.

You are letting your tunnel vision focus on the mod, not what it does and what that means in anything other than 1 on 1 2 on 2 fights.

And you keep referring to the 4 minute tank time and then saying its not all your talking about. If its not all your talking about stop repeating it every other post and prove it.


No, my entire argument is that it lets people do things that kinda break the game. Your defense of "just wait for the minute reload" argument just doesn't hold any water when people are out there tanking 2600 DPS for 4 minutes in a BC. The module itself is so powerful that in small gangs it's very much becoming "Fit ASB or go home". A T2 fit/T1 rigged dual ASB Myrmidon is better in every single way than a triple rep deadspace fit/T2 rigged Myrmidon.

CCP Fozzie was exactly correct when he said that it improved the active tanking situation somewhat. After all, more people are active tanking than ever before. However, it also became a Must Fit Module and people are fitting them to literally everything. Hell I am fitting them to literally everything.

ASB Executioners, ASB Atrons, ASB Cyclones, ASB Feroxes, ASB Drakes, ASB Talsoes, ASB Oracles, ASB Hyperions, ASB ******* everything. And so is everyone else.

Quote:

We have both stated the mod needs work, I would like to see it adjusted meaning minor changes, you seem to want CCP to hit it with the nerf bat till its as useless as as a shield booster in PVP.

I'm not against saying your right or we have different ideas on how to change the mod I just want to see you say something other than bla bla bla 4 minute tank bla bla bla nerf it.


I want CCP to hammer it with the nerfbat, yes. That's because the entire concept behind the ASB is utterly broken. It tanks better than a deadspace rep, eliminates the need for a cap booster, renders you immune to neuts, frees up a slot, and is super easy on fittings. I've ranted about this problem at length. It needs changed pretty dramatically.

Also, saying that it's as useless as a shield booster in PVP is... well, funny. I've got 5 PVP videos out that feature active tanking and kicking the **** out of gangs that both outnumber us as well as outship us. I KNOW how effective active tanking was - and even old style active tanking is far more effective than you really give it credit for.

-Liang


A) And you still haven't figured out why this number is funny. it takes a minute to reload one of these things and I have seen 4 guys turn a BC to dust in less than 45 seconds, so after he uses it and it empties and reloads it, you have 60 seconds to ruin his day, but your crap fleet comp and apparent misfits make that impossible. You have great long term DPS in that fleet but no short duration High dps to burn down a ship with a tank.

B) Killmails showing this would be interesting to see, cause the only hyp killmails I have seen with an ASB resulted in the guy dieing comically fast. And no "EVERYONE" is not using them. I, in fact have not put a single ASB on a single ship I own on any of my 3 shield tanking chars. so .. no everyone is the wrong word.

C) We have been over both of those points and they aren't accurate, the only time cap doesn't matter is if you are using projectile guns and don't care if you have no cap at all (including the cap needed to run resist mods, ewar, tackle, and oh yeah that prop mod that IS used by "everyone". so yeah cap still matters. Better than a deadspace? Yeah for how many cap boosters you have loaded. and as soon as you run out... oops. guess its not better than a rep that can be run for a lot longer than 30 seconds.

D) If a gang out numbers you by enough to matter and they still can't win with numbers, ships and firepower I want to know where they live so I can "visit" it sounds like a fun place to pvp. If you can take an inferior ship in an inferior fleet with inferior firepower into a fight AND win then something is being done very, very wrong by the guys with all the advantages that matter.

The LULZ Boat.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#70 - 2012-08-29 01:31:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Mars Theran
Garreth Vlox wrote:

I could take this conversation until riiiiiiiiight here: "practical PVP environment"

Not a single part of the discussion we have had represents what live unexpected pvp works like, besides my post about fitting ships that complement each other. Every other comment has been something to do with the theory of that tank for that boat in a very specialized controlled setting against a known number of enemies, and assuming it was not in a WH where the effects of the system change everything.

Also: "I do believe you weren't on vent so you claiming why we did a particular test is pretty hilarious." You first few comments referencing test were about how that test showed the mod was overpowered. I can only claim to know what you tell me.


Okay, I had to hold you up on this bit. The rest of your banter back and forth with Liang was pretty standard fare, but you actually suggested that a pratical PvP environment in EVE involved unexpected PvP. We all know this isn';t the case unless you are a disconnected loner wandering about on your own.

Everybody else has people probing ships and checking fits before any live combat actually takes place. Most have time to fly to a station and change their fits to easily destroy that poor unexpecting loner on his own out there. If you're in a fleet, the expectation is simple: more people to tank, more people to shoot; everybody is going to buffer and dps with pretty predictable fits.

If you're skirmishing in a small gang; then expect that the gang will quickly recon and decide to fight or evade based on what they see there. Nothing unexpected ever really happens in a practical PvP environment unless you're a noob.

That said, I'm still pretty much a noob, but even I know that I'm missing something and most people who do it regularly aren't.

Also,

"..you're right I'd have to use a different plan to kill a non cap using gun ship."

"It's called planning maybe you should make one next time."

That was you btw, proving my point.
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2012-08-29 01:37:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Garreth Vlox
Mars Theran wrote:
Garreth Vlox wrote:

I could take this conversation until riiiiiiiiight here: "practical PVP environment"

Not a single part of the discussion we have had represents what live unexpected pvp works like, besides my post about fitting ships that complement each other. Every other comment has been something to do with the theory of that tank for that boat in a very specialized controlled setting against a known number of enemies, and assuming it was not in a WH where the effects of the system change everything.

Also: "I do believe you weren't on vent so you claiming why we did a particular test is pretty hilarious." You first few comments referencing test were about how that test showed the mod was overpowered. I can only claim to know what you tell me.


Okay, I had to hold you up on this bit. The rest of your banter back and forth with Liang was pretty standard fare, but you actually suggested that a pratical PvP environment in EVE involved unexpected PvP. We all know this isn';t the case unless you are a disconnected loner wandering about on your own.

Everybody else has people probing ships and checking fits before any live combat actually takes place. Most have time to fly to a station and change their fits to easily destroy that poor unexpecting loner on his own out there. If you're in a fleet, the expectation is simple: more people to tank, more people to shoot; everybody is going to buffer and dps with pretty predictable fits.

If you're skirmishing in a small gang; then expect that the gang will quickly recon and decide to fight or evade based on what they see there. Nothing unexpected ever really happens in a practical PvP environment unless you're a noob.

That said, I'm still pretty much a noob, but even I know that I'm missing something and most people who do it regularly aren't.


Wut? yeah, no kidding you're a noob and while its sounds like it I don't mean that in a bad way but it is an apt label. That kind of warfare happens between alliance blocks who have time due to the distance between them to scan down the opponent check his fit and change ships. No gang 20 jumps home who suddenly finds a gate camp on the other side has any time to do a single thing you just listed. As far as recon the opponent that jumped into you. That involves the FC on your side counting ships and noting ships types and deciding whether or not to run like hell. If you are the one doing the jumping in and you don't like your odds you decide whether to suicide engage to get a "gud fight" or you run before their scout tells them you're their and they jump you.

Edit 1) that's accurate i'll give you that. But to this day I have yet to encounter a solo pvper, friendly or otherwise who will sit still long enough to be scanned down in a system let a lone let you scan his fit.

Edit 2) try pvping a few hundred more times and then try to tell me that. I used to think the same thing. First time someone cynos 3 moms on top of your 10 BC gang fit to kite **** you will change your mind I know I did.

The LULZ Boat.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#72 - 2012-08-29 01:49:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Mars Theran
Garreth Vlox wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:
Garreth Vlox wrote:

I could take this conversation until riiiiiiiiight here: "practical PVP environment"

Not a single part of the discussion we have had represents what live unexpected pvp works like, besides my post about fitting ships that complement each other. Every other comment has been something to do with the theory of that tank for that boat in a very specialized controlled setting against a known number of enemies, and assuming it was not in a WH where the effects of the system change everything.

Also: "I do believe you weren't on vent so you claiming why we did a particular test is pretty hilarious." You first few comments referencing test were about how that test showed the mod was overpowered. I can only claim to know what you tell me.


Okay, I had to hold you up on this bit. The rest of your banter back and forth with Liang was pretty standard fare, but you actually suggested that a pratical PvP environment in EVE involved unexpected PvP. We all know this isn';t the case unless you are a disconnected loner wandering about on your own.

Everybody else has people probing ships and checking fits before any live combat actually takes place. Most have time to fly to a station and change their fits to easily destroy that poor unexpecting loner on his own out there. If you're in a fleet, the expectation is simple: more people to tank, more people to shoot; everybody is going to buffer and dps with pretty predictable fits.

If you're skirmishing in a small gang; then expect that the gang will quickly recon and decide to fight or evade based on what they see there. Nothing unexpected ever really happens in a practical PvP environment unless you're a noob.

That said, I'm still pretty much a noob, but even I know that I'm missing something and most people who do it regularly aren't.


Wut? yeah, no kidding you're a noob and while its sounds like it I don't mean that in a bad way but it is an apt label. That kind of warfare happens between alliance blocks who have time due to the distance between them to scan down the opponent check his fit and change ships. No gang 20 jumps home who suddenly finds a gate camp on the other side has any time to do a single thing you just listed. As far as recon the opponent that jumped into you. That involves the FC on your side counting ships and noting ships types and deciding whether or not to run like hell. If you are the one doing the jumping in and you don't like your odds you decide whether to suicide engage to get a "gud fight" or you run before their scout tells them you're their and they jump you.

Edit 1) that's accurate i'll give you that. But to this day I have yet to encounter a solo pvper, friendly or otherwise who will sit still long enough to be scanned down in a system let a lone let you scan his fit.

Edit 2) try pvping a few hundred more times and then try to tell me that. I used to think the same thing. First time someone cynos 3 moms on top of your 10 BC gang fit to kite **** you will change your mind I know I did.


I've encountered plenty of people who scan ships in the time it takes to leave a gate. What do you think they are doing out there anyway?

500-1100 mm scan resolution is fast enough to get nearly anything.

Besides that, they wouldn't be ganking if they thought they might lose, and any risk has to have a reward to compensate for the risk itself. Just ganking someone isn't generally done, unless you already know what they've got in their cargo, or know they can't possibly tank your gang long enough to kill one of you.

There is very little risk in PvP when it really boils down to it, unless you happen to be solo or skirmishing. Evn skirmishing doesn't usually involve a lot of risk when you've got the ability to look at a ship and tel if it's got T2 guns, know the make and weaknesses, and which standard tank is being used without ever needing a scanner.

Couple that with local spikes, knowledge of territory, and the ability to see who and how many pilots in any system, as well as being able to see how many pilots in adjacent and travel systems before ever going through them, or even near them.. Where is the unexpected?
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2012-08-29 01:52:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Garreth Vlox
Mars Theran wrote:
Garreth Vlox wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:
Garreth Vlox wrote:

I could take this conversation until riiiiiiiiight here: "practical PVP environment"

Not a single part of the discussion we have had represents what live unexpected pvp works like, besides my post about fitting ships that complement each other. Every other comment has been something to do with the theory of that tank for that boat in a very specialized controlled setting against a known number of enemies, and assuming it was not in a WH where the effects of the system change everything.

Also: "I do believe you weren't on vent so you claiming why we did a particular test is pretty hilarious." You first few comments referencing test were about how that test showed the mod was overpowered. I can only claim to know what you tell me.


Okay, I had to hold you up on this bit. The rest of your banter back and forth with Liang was pretty standard fare, but you actually suggested that a pratical PvP environment in EVE involved unexpected PvP. We all know this isn';t the case unless you are a disconnected loner wandering about on your own.

Everybody else has people probing ships and checking fits before any live combat actually takes place. Most have time to fly to a station and change their fits to easily destroy that poor unexpecting loner on his own out there. If you're in a fleet, the expectation is simple: more people to tank, more people to shoot; everybody is going to buffer and dps with pretty predictable fits.

If you're skirmishing in a small gang; then expect that the gang will quickly recon and decide to fight or evade based on what they see there. Nothing unexpected ever really happens in a practical PvP environment unless you're a noob.

That said, I'm still pretty much a noob, but even I know that I'm missing something and most people who do it regularly aren't.


Wut? yeah, no kidding you're a noob and while its sounds like it I don't mean that in a bad way but it is an apt label. That kind of warfare happens between alliance blocks who have time due to the distance between them to scan down the opponent check his fit and change ships. No gang 20 jumps home who suddenly finds a gate camp on the other side has any time to do a single thing you just listed. As far as recon the opponent that jumped into you. That involves the FC on your side counting ships and noting ships types and deciding whether or not to run like hell. If you are the one doing the jumping in and you don't like your odds you decide whether to suicide engage to get a "gud fight" or you run before their scout tells them you're their and they jump you.

Edit 1) that's accurate i'll give you that. But to this day I have yet to encounter a solo pvper, friendly or otherwise who will sit still long enough to be scanned down in a system let a lone let you scan his fit.

Edit 2) try pvping a few hundred more times and then try to tell me that. I used to think the same thing. First time someone cynos 3 moms on top of your 10 BC gang fit to kite **** you will change your mind I know I did.


Try again?? And since you haven't figured it out yet you have to enter something in your sig once you make one you can't blank it.

The LULZ Boat.
Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2012-08-29 01:56:43 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:
Garreth Vlox wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:
Garreth Vlox wrote:

I could take this conversation until riiiiiiiiight here: "practical PVP environment"

Not a single part of the discussion we have had represents what live unexpected pvp works like, besides my post about fitting ships that complement each other. Every other comment has been something to do with the theory of that tank for that boat in a very specialized controlled setting against a known number of enemies, and assuming it was not in a WH where the effects of the system change everything.

Also: "I do believe you weren't on vent so you claiming why we did a particular test is pretty hilarious." You first few comments referencing test were about how that test showed the mod was overpowered. I can only claim to know what you tell me.


Okay, I had to hold you up on this bit. The rest of your banter back and forth with Liang was pretty standard fare, but you actually suggested that a pratical PvP environment in EVE involved unexpected PvP. We all know this isn';t the case unless you are a disconnected loner wandering about on your own.

Everybody else has people probing ships and checking fits before any live combat actually takes place. Most have time to fly to a station and change their fits to easily destroy that poor unexpecting loner on his own out there. If you're in a fleet, the expectation is simple: more people to tank, more people to shoot; everybody is going to buffer and dps with pretty predictable fits.

If you're skirmishing in a small gang; then expect that the gang will quickly recon and decide to fight or evade based on what they see there. Nothing unexpected ever really happens in a practical PvP environment unless you're a noob.

That said, I'm still pretty much a noob, but even I know that I'm missing something and most people who do it regularly aren't.


Wut? yeah, no kidding you're a noob and while its sounds like it I don't mean that in a bad way but it is an apt label. That kind of warfare happens between alliance blocks who have time due to the distance between them to scan down the opponent check his fit and change ships. No gang 20 jumps home who suddenly finds a gate camp on the other side has any time to do a single thing you just listed. As far as recon the opponent that jumped into you. That involves the FC on your side counting ships and noting ships types and deciding whether or not to run like hell. If you are the one doing the jumping in and you don't like your odds you decide whether to suicide engage to get a "gud fight" or you run before their scout tells them you're their and they jump you.

Edit 1) that's accurate i'll give you that. But to this day I have yet to encounter a solo pvper, friendly or otherwise who will sit still long enough to be scanned down in a system let a lone let you scan his fit.

Edit 2) try pvping a few hundred more times and then try to tell me that. I used to think the same thing. First time someone cynos 3 moms on top of your 10 BC gang fit to kite **** you will change your mind I know I did.


I've encountered plenty of people who scan ships in the time it takes to leave a gate. What do you think they are doing out there anyway?

500-1100 mm scan resolution is fast enough to get nearly anything.

Besides that, they wouldn't be ganking if they thought they might lose, and any risk has to have a reward to compensate for the risk itself. Just ganking someone isn't generally done, unless you already know what they've got in their cargo, or know they can't possibly tank your gang long enough to kill one of you.

There is very little risk in PvP when it really boils down to it, unless you happen to be solo or skirmishing. Evn skirmishing doesn't usually involve a lot of risk when you've got the ability to look at a ship and tel if it's got T2 guns, know the make and weaknesses, and which standard tank is being used without ever needing a scanner.


That may be true in high sec. But out here in Null-sec? Let's just say a few of the rules change.

The LULZ Boat.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#75 - 2012-08-29 01:57:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Mars Theran
wrong key, so sue me. ..and I'm quite aware of the sig; that's why it's there.

edit: high-sec, lowsec, and actually nullsec and wormhole space too. NPC Null particulalry, but Alliance Null too.

Just because this toon doesn't have a history doesn't mean I haven't been there; though a bit might have changed since I had. Your Alliance for example, wasn't around, unless I've just never heard of it till now. Haven't bothered to check the details.

..actually, having checked your toon; it wasn't around until some time after either. I noticed you made similar assumptions while jumping on Liang Nurens head too. ..not in a bad way; I've seen real trolls and I know the difference. ;)
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Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2012-08-29 02:14:01 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:
wrong key, so sue me. ..and I'm quite aware of the sig; that's why it's there.

edit: high-sec, lowsec, and actually nullsec and wormhole space too. NPC Null particulalry, but Alliance Null too.

Just because this toon doesn't have a history doesn't mean I haven't been there; though a bit might have changed since I had. Your Alliance for example, wasn't around, unless I've just never heard of it till now. Haven't bothered to check the details.

..actually, having checked your toon; it wasn't around until some time after either. I noticed you made similar assumptions while jumping on Liang Nurens head too. ..not in a bad way; I've seen real trolls and I know the difference. ;)



Ok, then explain how a drag bubble on any random gate, celestial, or warp route is "not risky pvp." Explain how a cyno being lit and cynoing in a mom, or titan, or the slightly more realistic black ops squad of damping TPing bombers is "not risky pvp" Explain how gate guns that will soon be able to kill a carrier are "not risky pvp" Explain how a WH that changes how effective your fittings are is "not risky pvp" Explain how 5 guys that can't be seen on Dscan or scanned with probes can land 30 km from you without you knowing and drop bombs that give you 10 seconds to think and then act to defend yourself is "not risky pvp" Explain how a cloaky ship that can scram you from up to 60-70ish km (depending on skills, mods, and boost factors) while his buddy webs you down from the same distance if not a little farther is "not risky pvp"

As you may have noticed I have a slight problem with that phrase for more than just the basic reason that is an oxymoron.

Just because you didn't bother using eve gate to read my corp history doesn't mean I wasn't there either.

Also this is now officially a WIDOT thread.

The LULZ Boat.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#77 - 2012-08-29 04:36:47 UTC
Garreth Vlox wrote:

A) And you still haven't figured out why this number is funny. it takes a minute to reload one of these things and I have seen 4 guys turn a BC to dust in less than 45 seconds, so after he uses it and it empties and reloads it, you have 60 seconds to ruin his day, but your crap fleet comp and apparent misfits make that impossible. You have great long term DPS in that fleet but no short duration High dps to burn down a ship with a tank.


I'm sorry, do you really think that 2600 DPS is not high DPS when applied to a single battlecruiser?

Quote:

B) Killmails showing this would be interesting to see, cause the only hyp killmails I have seen with an ASB resulted in the guy dieing comically fast. And no "EVERYONE" is not using them. I, in fact have not put a single ASB on a single ship I own on any of my 3 shield tanking chars. so .. no everyone is the wrong word.


Sure, but ASB usage is already very high and is getting higher by the day. But I suppose you can always rely on your old buffer fits. The more people that do that the higher my advantage will be as a chronic ASB user.

Quote:

C) We have been over both of those points and they aren't accurate, the only time cap doesn't matter is if you are using projectile guns and don't care if you have no cap at all (including the cap needed to run resist mods, ewar, tackle, and oh yeah that prop mod that IS used by "everyone". so yeah cap still matters. Better than a deadspace? Yeah for how many cap boosters you have loaded. and as soon as you run out... oops. guess its not better than a rep that can be run for a lot longer than 30 seconds.


Look, I know you've got that 1 minute reload on the brain, but 2600 DPS for 4 minutes and 20 seconds straight. To put that in perspective: That T2 fit/T1 rig fit both has superior longevity and raw tank capacity to a Myrmidon with triple B-Type reps, T2 rigs, a Legion booster, and Strong Exile. And that's totally neglecting the raw capacitor requirement of a triple rep setup.

Quote:

D) If a gang out numbers you by enough to matter and they still can't win with numbers, ships and firepower I want to know where they live so I can "visit" it sounds like a fun place to pvp. If you can take an inferior ship in an inferior fleet with inferior firepower into a fight AND win then something is being done very, very wrong by the guys with all the advantages that matter.


You seem to have misunderstood what was going on, but whatever. Feel free to drop by Amamake. Bring some nice loot!

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#78 - 2012-08-29 04:41:13 UTC
Garreth Vlox wrote:
That may be true in high sec. But out here in Null-sec? Let's just say a few of the rules change.


You know, I went and checked out your KB history based on the "out here in null sec". It perfectly confirmed what I suspected: you aren't impressed with the ASB because you regularly fly in gangs big enough that no active tank can ever matter. And really, that's ok - but do try to restrict your commentary to parts of the game you have a clue about.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Soundwave Plays Diablo
Doomheim
#79 - 2012-08-29 05:33:01 UTC
They are absolute garbage for pve. I have heard a lot of people use them for PvP, but not wormholes. What?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#80 - 2012-08-29 05:35:12 UTC
Soundwave Plays Diablo wrote:
They are absolute garbage for pve. I have heard a lot of people use them for PvP, but not wormholes. What?


I could see them being conditionally useful in wormholes, but they'd be overall pretty weak if you have to engage in a site.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.