EVE General Discussion

New guy starts playing.

For whatever reason he decides that mining is fun, and that's what he chooses to do.

After a couple of days, he gets frustrated flying from belt to belt in the starter system, only to find them all gone because they were mined out by older players flying barges and exhumers in the starter systems. Some of these older players, look just like new players in retreivers because it takes very little time to get into one.

1) That guy in the retriever gets popped and reoports it under the premise that he's a new player, even though it's an alt of a guy that's been playing the game for 6 years. Guy that popped him had a legit kill because the guy ins't really a new player, but gets banned because an older player took advantage of a rule he was aware of and gamed the system.

2) New player decided he wants to see what it's like to shoot another player, or maybe someone was telling him about can flipping and tried to give it a go. He's only a few days old and in the rookie system, he has no idea that he's about to break a rule. Guy he baits is familliar with the rule, and reports him. There have actually been insidences of new players getting into trouble for doing these things, and on an almost daily basis I'm telling people in NPC corp chat, with my alt, that they can't engage in pvp or can flipping in the starting system; new and old players alike.

3) The new guy I was talking about, who got tired of not finding any belts to mine in the rookie system, he decides, like a good EVE player, to move. He gets blown up the following day in a high sec, nonrookie system, and quits.


This is why you code rules. Stating rules and expecting people to follow them, or even know about them when you don't tell them the rules, is not the way to do it.

Code in a designation for each new ACCOUNT, that expires after a set amount of time, or when the player does something specifically to cancel the new player tag. Have a warning pop up that proceeding with such action will eliminate the tag. The tage doesn't have to prevent new players from getting shot at, you don't actually have anything locked out. It would only be a tag that other players will see, so that they know it's a person they aren't supposed to shoot at.

It is not hard. Other games use it for exactly the same reason CCP has the stated rules, so new players have a fair chance of learning mechanics without being harrassed. The thresholds for removing the tag are not complicated, they aren't infinite, they aren't even abundant.

A) enter a low sec system.

B) Target, and then aggress another player

C) Put X amount of estimated ISK worth of cargo into a ship and undock.

D) 30 days pass.

The problem is not "who is a rookie" it's who is a rookie in a rookie system. Get rid of the rediculous system wide designation, and just make a stupid tag that each new account gets. New players do not stay in just the designated systems, they don't know abou the rule, and the rule allows older players to get other people in trouble that aren't aware fo the rule.

A tag that says "this guy is off limits for now" is much easier to see, and understand. People who shoot them, bait them, or harrass them in any way will do so knowing that they aren't supposed to. It doesn't leave room for peopel to do something accidentally that everything in the game allows you to do, and what most people think they're supposed to be able to do.

^^^ Dissagreeing with this is simply moronic. If CCP's emphasis is to create an enviroment that will allow new players to get adjusted to the game, then stating rules is not the way to do it. If you're putting effort into improving the new player experience, then do it right, and stop half assing it with this stupid "don't touch a new player in these systems" that most people aren't even aware of.

New players need to be protected for a PERIOD OF TIME, not an undefined period of time in specific systems that people aren't aware of.

Trial account...

Nothing is perfect. It's code, code is exploitable, it happens all the time. You can't just say, no we're not going to do it because of this or that that someone might find a way around. If that was the case you might as well just turn EVE off.

And it's not hard, and CCP is putting effort forth already to improve the new player experience. It's an ongoing developmental process. If they're working on improving that aspect of the game, than stuff like this should be a part of it.

Edit: What they're doing now is fine for NOW. It can't remain as the ongoing policy. It's not effecitve enough, WAY to exploitable, AND NO ONE KNOWS ABOUT IT.

Coding it is how you make sure EVERYONE is aware.

I have a recipe for everyone now.

This is how you make non-uniform cookies.

Take one part individual and mix it with one part discresion, and a sprinke of 1st and 2nd party. Bake for a bit and enjoy.

What you get is a rule that isn't uniform, because individuals are responcible for translating the rule.

One guy gets popped by another guy.
One GM says ok, it's a ban.
Another GM says ok, it's a warning.

One GM says, well it was out of the rookie system, but you're only a few days old so ban.
Another says, well you're not in the rookie system, but you're only a few days old so I'll warn him.
Another says, well your not in the rookie system so I can't help you.

A coded rule means the devs don't decide based on what they feel is justifiable under the rules.
blow someone up with a tag, and you get banned. Period.

Joke?
Do you know how many people live in the rookie systems?
On average only 40 people at any given time mine the same system as my alt, and belts are gone by the evening. You thnk no one is mining in a rookie system? You can into them in the monrings and see the barges and exhumers eating the belts. WTF.


When did I say add more rules.
It IS the rule. If you've followed what GM's have been saying, you'd know that the rule isn't just applied to stated systems. They have the right to use their descretion in all high sec systems when it comes to rookies. Blow a new player up in a system not listed and you can be banned. It's entirely up to the GM.

All I'm saying is, instead of stating on a webpage that no one sees, put a frigging tag on new players that everyone sees.

Crime watch is already working on new rules for high sec agression, this should be a part of it.



How do you make a judgment call when you don't know a rule exists? This isn't life, it's a game. People do what mechanics allow them to do, and new players are allowed to shoot other players, and some have gotten in trouble for shooting other rookie players.

On an almost daily basis, while playing my alt, some new guy asks how can flipping works after it happens to them. It's suprising how many of them end up going, Oh, I can use that to shoot other people without getting blown up by concord? Or just the new guy that wants to see if they can blow up another player before concord gets them, not knowing they can't do that in the system they're in.

PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THE RULE EXISTS.
I don't give a **** if it's a greifer or not. It's not right to penelize people for NOT KNOWING that they can be banned for doing something the game provides them all of the mechanics to do.

It's the equivilent of CCP putting a rule on the wiki that says it's now a bannable offense to shoot a POS in high sec. All the mechanics are there to do so.

Sorry, but that's a really weak excuse to NOT do something.

How often do you think people get conned into going into low sec?

Not code — codify, and they did indeed say that they would never codify it, and that was separate to the lack of dev time. Unfortunately, the rules need to be codified to be turned into something that can be put into code.

…the play on words is not intentional and rather unfortunate, but that was the gist of it.

Also, the same reasoning for not making the internal policies official is applicable for not turning them into game mechanics, and since they're so opposed to the former, it seems rather unlikely that they'd go for the latter. Yes, it's a pretty BS stance, but that's the hand we've been dealt and why the discussion has focused on providing them with a better policy that still lets them retain the same degree of GM discretion.

I demand CCP codify rules properly. GM discretion is a joke, especially when GMs often don't even understand the mechanics of the game properly.

It's the shooting of rookies outside of the declared rookie systems that are being enforced at the moment. That is what he is referring to, not the killing of rookies in labelled systems.

They couldn't use it to protect themselves any more then they already do.

Tagging every new account under 30 days isn't a big deal, it's effectively what they're currently doing with the stated rule, except that most people aren't even aware of it. Nor does the rule only apply to the rookie systems and SoE systems, a GM has already stated that they use their descretion outside of those systems as well.

I don't think people understand what's happening here.

The GM's said that if the harrasment of rookie players didn't stop, they would expand the number of systems the rule applies to, and they did. That means that there wasn't sufficient adhearence to the rule, and they felt they needed to expand it to provide more protection to new players, exactly like they said they would.

This is not an issue of judment.
I have never done the SoE missions. I could, if I wanted, start a new account and do those missions. I am not a rookie, even with a new account. It is not possible for any player to know if any other player with a new account is a rookie, or an alt of a someone that has been playing for some time. Not even a GM has the means to determine this.

I could actually get people in trouble by reporting them if they messed with one of my alts, that's not really cool.

People already use disposable alts to do things in high sec, it's a moot point to worry about. There's nothing a vet can do with an alt that is taged as a new player that can't be compensated for.

Along the way they should change some things with the way trials work. If you have an active account, you shouldn't be able to register a trial account with the same email. There's simply no reason that anyone playing already needs a trial period other than to get a couple extra weeks of free playtime. If people want 30 disposable alts to get themselves rookie protection to do inconsiquential crap in high sec, fine, make them create 30 different emails.


Now, I keep seeing people say that a rookie tag would be easy to expoit, no one says how.
Please, explain to me what good it would do a vet player?

I rather like the current system, although it could use some coding as the Goon suggested. GM's need the flexibility to ban people who break the rules. For example, a newb a week old starts can flipping and killing the day old newbs. The GM can give him a warning and let him know he will get banned if he does it again. Likewise, if a newb hauls 40 plex and gets suicide ganked, the GM can look at the character and the circumstances and decide that its a clean kill, that the person is really not a newb. The GM can also ban people who can flip and should know better. Its a matter of discretion that is needed. GM's can look at patterns of behavior too. They can see if someone is blowing up multiple newb ships and can get a good idea as to whether or not to ban them.

I know I got blown up ratting in a starter system. I took from a can dropped by another player and he killed me. I also shot back to no effect. No big loss, I just got back in another rookie ship and kept playing. For me, the GM didn't need to do anything because I didn't know what a petition was, which is a problem. I was mad for a minute and kept playing. Luckily for me I didn't have a multimillion isk ship which was a huge amount of isk to me back then.