These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

chance *dice roles* have no place in eve
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-08-28 15:54:28 UTC
as title.

Make a game that rewards a player for knowledge, fitting, expirience and precision.....


Then add chance based dice roles to HUGELY powerful things like ECM and not so life critical things like salvaging and invention.

Sorry, call me a freak, but i just dont think that is "eve"

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Gabrielle Lamb
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-08-28 15:58:45 UTC
It's called Calculated Risk, and proper ECM usage recuires both skill, experience and knowledge. Predicting what ships you're most likely to meet, what ships are most importaint to jam, which ones are easier / harder to jam, overloading jammers for extra strength when recuired and so on. It's not all that different from shooting with autocannons.
Alara IonStorm
#3 - 2012-08-28 15:59:12 UTC
Gun Damage works on a chance dice role.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#4 - 2012-08-28 16:40:11 UTC
We are talking about contested rolls

I don't think its unreasonable for a computer to sometimes fail in the tracking of a small target or for a ECM module to struggle breaking through the defences of a ECCM module..

Why on EARTH should chance not come into it?

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-08-28 17:22:26 UTC
chance based is fine when skilled for and played against one or a few players.

the issue is when a dice roll is played by many numbers (multiple players with multiple modules) the chance of success rockets up, this is why ecm drones are even great 1v1 because you get 5 rolls every x seconds.

Im just calling for a fix where stacking takes effect on rolls as well as module stacks.

Look at all other EW, i put 2 modules lets say damps on a target and a gang friend puts to on, the target enjoys a 4 module stack meaning probably around 2-3 effective ness. now if we said we were using ecm i get 2 rolls my friend gets 2 rolls, a hit from any of us is 100% for every module, not the stacking penalized 4 down to 2-3 and also i might ass with less effect.

Salvaging and invention suffer the same thing, however running alot of jobs or using multiple modules like ECM, makes for a better success.

I just feel that this isnt very "eve".

Disagree, thats fine, this is a discussion about it after all.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-08-28 17:24:40 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
We are talking about contested rolls

I don't think its unreasonable for a computer to sometimes fail in the tracking of a small target or for a ECM module to struggle breaking through the defences of a ECCM module..

Why on EARTH should chance not come into it?


ecm is vs sensor strength, an eccm module only makes your chance to be jammed per ecm module less, still any single success will jam you for the 20 seconds, so if everyone in a gang were to use ecm drones AND one ecm module, your chances absoulty sky rocket, this goes simply promotes zee blob with tedious yet powerful ew on their enemy.

ever had 10 peoples ecm drones on you? It sucks.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
notha atfast
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-08-28 17:35:38 UTC
If all of their ECM drones are on you...they are not using DPS drones and they are not on anyone else in your fleet. Call it taking one for the team :D

It no worse than focusing alpha strikes. They just happened to make you their primary for ECM.
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#8 - 2012-08-28 17:50:56 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
as title.

Make a game that rewards a player for knowledge, fitting, expirience and precision.....


Obviously, EVE punishes anyone who's bad at statistics.
Bluestream3
the Goose Flock
#9 - 2012-08-28 18:55:31 UTC
Yes, streamline everything! Remove every single thing that is different from the 'normal' game mechanics. Then, surely we'll get a fun game to play.

This is, IMO, the kind of thinking that ruins games today.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#10 - 2012-08-28 18:57:00 UTC
Exploited Engineer wrote:
Muad 'dib wrote:
as title.

Make a game that rewards a player for knowledge, fitting, expirience and precision.....


Obviously, EVE punishes anyone who's bad at statistics.


If only life were as unforgiving....
Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#11 - 2012-08-28 18:59:42 UTC
Random numbers are very frustrating in any situation where the law of large numbers has not yet begun to take effect. (I believe that is what it is called). Basically in small sample sizes such as 5-10 invention jobs, one falcon jamming you and your three freinds, your falcon failing to jam either of the non eccm equipped logis three cycles in a row and you and your friends dying are all very annoing.

This is what makes dice rolls, bad. Firing guns tends to have so many dice rolls that actual value will almost always approach expected over the course of several fights to the point it can almost be ignored.

Or small sizes bite, when you get "unlucky", rule when you get "lucky" and you will always rember being unlucky longer than being lucky.

Is there a better answer, sometimes yes, sometimes no. I kind of wish invention was just adjusted to a set cost/time per unit and based on thne current expected values (your skills/base item/decryptor would modify invention time cost, so I could get more consistent results.
Kosetzu
The Black Crow Bandits
Northern Coalition.
#12 - 2012-08-28 19:50:08 UTC
Airto TLA wrote:
I kind of wish invention was just adjusted to a set cost/time per unit and based on thne current expected values (your skills/base item/decryptor would modify invention time cost, so I could get more consistent results.


I really wish that were the case. They have at least admitted that the system isn't working as they want it to... Nobody knows when it will be addressed though.

As for the general modules rolls, removing them would be make game simpler than WoW even... Which is not what most of eve wants I'd say. Certain rolls might seem a bit too likely too work just as others seem to be very unlikely.

Like already stated in this thread you always remember the times it does not go your way. ECM drones might need some tweaking, and multiple jams having a reduced chance of hitting might work... But ECM is not like other forms of EWAR and such, and should not be treated as such either.

Everything has optimals and falloffs, but the effect of optimal/falloff is very different from module to module. You only need one ECM cycle to land for a full jam, it's not like you can get double effects from it and therefore it does not need a diminishing effect. What would that even be, being semi-jammed? Going down to max 1 targeted or something? Diminishing returns on other forms of EWAR is there because it can be applied multiple times on the same ship and still have an effect.
Griznatch
Distinguished Gentleman's Boating Club
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#13 - 2012-08-28 21:32:50 UTC
But what about the all the money I spent on this big bag of snazzy looking dice?

I used to have a clever sig but I lost it.
NotTheSmartestCookie
Shooting Blues Everyday
Gimme Da Loot
#14 - 2012-08-28 21:48:31 UTC
Airto TLA wrote:
Random numbers are very frustrating in any situation where the law of large numbers has not yet begun to take effect. (I believe that is what it is called). Basically in small sample sizes such as 5-10 invention jobs, one falcon jamming you and your three freinds, your falcon failing to jam either of the non eccm equipped logis three cycles in a row and you and your friends dying are all very annoing.

This is what makes dice rolls, bad. Firing guns tends to have so many dice rolls that actual value will almost always approach expected over the course of several fights to the point it can almost be ignored.

Or small sizes bite, when you get "unlucky", rule when you get "lucky" and you will always rember being unlucky longer than being lucky.

Is there a better answer, sometimes yes, sometimes no. I kind of wish invention was just adjusted to a set cost/time per unit and based on thne current expected values (your skills/base item/decryptor would modify invention time cost, so I could get more consistent results.


Being jammed by a Falcon while setting up invention jobs would be very annoying.

Making New Eden a better place 8 rounds of Void at a time.

Funny, smartest, pretty and relevant. Pick 3.

Proud shareholder in Halaima MinerBumping
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2012-08-29 00:48:44 UTC
EVE isn't a fighting game. Just like every MMO, you don't win just because you hit the right buttons in the right order the fastest. Chance makes things more fun, more interesting, and more balanced.
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-08-29 01:24:36 UTC
The roll of the die is what makes turrets that much more exciting to use than missiles.

Great hit! Miss! Great hit! WRECKING HIT! Miss, you fail!

-or-

Hit. Hit. Hit. Hit. Hit. Another hit. Hit. Hit.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#17 - 2012-08-29 16:05:06 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
The roll of the die is what makes turrets that much more exciting to use than missiles.


Yes. Even when shooting captial guns at a shuttle orbiting at 1km, there's a 1% chance of hitting ... and this will be a wrecking hit for 3x damage.
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-08-29 17:36:12 UTC
Exploited Engineer wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
The roll of the die is what makes turrets that much more exciting to use than missiles.


Yes. Even when shooting captial guns at a shuttle orbiting at 1km, there's a 1% chance of hitting ... and this will be a wrecking hit for 3x damage.


Seeing how the shell is probably ten, if not more, times the size of the shuttle...

Yeah.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-08-29 17:38:16 UTC
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-08-29 17:48:16 UTC
Dorian Wylde wrote:
EVE isn't a fighting game. Just like every MMO, you don't win just because you hit the right buttons in the right order the fastest. Chance makes things more fun, more interesting, and more balanced.


are you saying that fitting experience with pvp and a good ship dont matter at all if you click the correct order of stuff?

stupid.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
12Next page