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Dual Ancillary Shield Booster Everything
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#41 - 2012-08-28 19:48:37 UTC
Garreth Vlox wrote:
If that thrasher has the same "1 slot tank" then you are ******. It works both ways.


Yeah, but not everyone has picked up on the Magic 1 Slot Tank. I'll figure something out once they do. Probably pecking at them for a few hours from 20km.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2012-08-28 20:49:01 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Garreth Vlox wrote:
If that thrasher has the same "1 slot tank" then you are ******. It works both ways.


Yeah, but not everyone has picked up on the Magic 1 Slot Tank. I'll figure something out once they do. Probably pecking at them for a few hours from 20km.

-Liang


LOL everyone knows what that thing does, and as shown in all of the killmails listed in the threads about ASB's you still die it just takes longer, just like any boat with a tank.

The LULZ Boat.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#43 - 2012-08-28 20:58:59 UTC
Garreth Vlox wrote:

LOL everyone knows what that thing does, and as shown in all of the killmails listed in the threads about ASB's you still die it just takes longer, just like any boat with a tank.


Generally speaking, someone usually dies in PVP. Having a great tank with very few drawbacks is a great way to optimize the chances in your favor.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2012-08-28 21:07:36 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Garreth Vlox wrote:

LOL everyone knows what that thing does, and as shown in all of the killmails listed in the threads about ASB's you still die it just takes longer, just like any boat with a tank.


Generally speaking, someone usually dies in PVP. Having a great tank with very few drawbacks is a great way to optimize the chances in your favor.

-Liang


Yeah cause putting a mod 2 sizes larger than your ship in your fit ,which just so happens to use a TON of CPU and more than a little power grid which will affect what weapons and rigs you can put on a ship is in no way a "draw back"

The LULZ Boat.
Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2012-08-28 21:13:01 UTC
Down Link wrote:
Solo PVP is too risky now. Almost no chance unless you have it fitted too. You would be better off engaging a Drake and a Falcon in an iteron.


What you just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. And every one in this thread is now dumber for having read it. May god have mercy on your soul.

The LULZ Boat.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#46 - 2012-08-28 21:21:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Garreth Vlox wrote:

Yeah cause putting a mod 2 sizes larger than your ship in your fit ,which just so happens to use a TON of CPU and more than a little power grid which will affect what weapons and rigs you can put on a ship is in no way a "draw back"


It's actually not that big of a deal when you consider that most active tanked ships are going to end up burning a two slots on a cap booster and fitting mod anyway. Even if they're lucky enough to avoid burning the fitting slot they're still getting an inferior booster.

-Liang

Ed: And ultimately, CCP agrees that ASBs are problematic. I believe the wording was "too powerful and further shifts the meta towards shields".

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#47 - 2012-08-28 21:41:01 UTC
Shanija wrote:
Maybe I made an error in my calculations somewhere but when accounting for the usual skill bonuses most of the ASBs didn't seem very impressive compared to a plain old easier to fit shield extender of the same size across one reload cycle. The small was a little better, the medium almost exactly identical, the large maybe significantly but not out of the park better. The only one that was a great deal better was the XLASB, and you'd sort of expect that given there isn't an XLSE. Basically, unless you have a source of boost bonuses they didn't seem to be all they're cracked up to be compared to plain old buffer.

Did I make a miscalculation or is that accurate? They do have more advantages if you can actually live through the reload cycle or disengage to reload, but across the one cycle not so much.



X-Ls are generally what people are talking about when these threads screaming "Nerf the ASB" crop up.

MASBs are good in pairs, but not overpowered, Larges are quite UNDERPOWERED in comparison to the X-L.

Case and point: Dual XLASB Cyclones, Maelstroms, Sleipnirs. Ever since that PvP CLoki video I've seen more XL-ASB & LSE Loki fits, but they aren't as popular as ASB Cyclone & Mael hulls.

People who use them on Hurricanes, Ruptures, etc. fit their ships poorly and die as a result.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2012-08-28 22:00:21 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Garreth Vlox wrote:

Yeah cause putting a mod 2 sizes larger than your ship in your fit ,which just so happens to use a TON of CPU and more than a little power grid which will affect what weapons and rigs you can put on a ship is in no way a "draw back"


It's actually not that big of a deal when you consider that most active tanked ships are going to end up burning a two slots on a cap booster and fitting mod anyway. Even if they're lucky enough to avoid burning the fitting slot they're still getting an inferior booster.

-Liang

Ed: And ultimately, CCP agrees that ASBs are problematic. I believe the wording was "too powerful and further shifts the meta towards shields".


link the quote or call it an opinion. Second, cool it costs the same as 2 mods that were used before to do the same, now you have an empty mid slot and not much fitting left, unless you give up a low slot to add a fitting mod in the lows so you can use the empty mid slot for something besides a T1 tracking computer.. So you are still giving something up. Saying that everyone using it means its over powered would mean that the drake needs to be nerfed cause its half of every fleet they fly up north in the CFC and Zealots need to be nerfed cause that's all NC. counters those overpowered drakes with. And we should probably adjust those trimark and shield extender rigs cause god knows "everyone" is using those all the time so they must be over powered. Everyone using something means nothing, its only OP if there is no viable counter, in this case there is, out DPS the ASB or and here's the secret you seem to be missing, wait till it reloads and burn him down while his active tank is reloading for a minute. If a minute long reload timer in a 1 v 1 fight isn't a drawback to you I don't know what is.

The LULZ Boat.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#49 - 2012-08-28 22:12:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Garreth Vlox wrote:
link the quote or call it an opinion.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1826541#post1826541

Money quote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Discussion of tanking imbalances:
So some people have been asking if we care about some of the design problems inherent in our current tanking situation, and if we're going to redesign these ships to compensate for these problems.
Firstly, we are very aware of the many problems we're facing in tanking design at the moment. The balance between active and passive tanks, and between armor and shield (and honour) tanking are both in need of work. ASBs have made parts of this problem better (adding new interesting gameplay and making "active" tanking more popular) while making other parts worse (too good in many circumstances, and skewing the meta further towards shield). Armor and shield tanking balance suffers because mass (and velocity) penalties are far more severe than signature radius penalties in most circumstances, and to a lesser extent because of the difference between shield hitting at the start of a cycle and armor hitting at the end. This is especially harmful for active tanking Gallente blaster ships that need that speed to get within range.
These problems are real and we are working on them, but the solution isn't to skew the ships themselves too far in the opposite direction. Our goals are to hit the problems at their source.
That being said there may be things we end up doing to these ships to help smooth things out, such as reducing cycle times and/or tweaking the mass of the armor tankers down a bit. We're going to keep working on these ships up to and beyond release in the Winter.


Anyway, ASBs WILL be eating a nerf. And frankly, I'm pretty thankful about that because I'm tired of seeing people dual ASB tank literally every ship - regardless of how strong it's armor bonuses are.

Quote:
Second, cool it costs the same as 2 mods that were used before to do the same, now you have an empty mid slot and not much fitting left, unless you give up a low slot to add a fitting mod in the lows so you can use the empty mid slot for something besides a T1 tracking computer.. So you are still giving something up. Saying that everyone using it means its over powered would mean that the drake needs to be nerfed cause its half of every fleet they fly up north in the CFC and Zealots need to be nerfed cause that's all NC. counters those overpowered drakes with. And we should probably adjust those trimark and shield extender rigs cause god knows "everyone" is using those all the time so they must be over powered. Everyone using something means nothing, its only OP if there is no viable counter, in this case there is, out DPS the ASB or and here's the secret you seem to be missing, wait till it reloads and burn him down while his active tank is reloading for a minute. If a minute long reload timer in a 1 v 1 fight isn't a drawback to you I don't know what is.


We staged a duel vs a corpmate a couple of days ago. His Ferox tanked 2 close range gank canes and an Ishtar (~2600 DPS) for 4 minutes and 20 seconds. He turned his guns off to avoid killing the Hurricanes. Yes the down side exists, but it's not nearly as debilitating as you seem to believe it is.

-Liang

Ed: And really, if you needed any more proof that ASB's are OP as hell: a dual XL tanked Myrm (T2 fit/T1 rigs) is superior in every way - including tank longevity - to a triple deadspace/faction/t2 rigged Myrmidon.

Seriously.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2012-08-28 22:28:52 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Garreth Vlox wrote:
link the quote or call it an opinion.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1826541#post1826541

Money quote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Discussion of tanking imbalances:
So some people have been asking if we care about some of the design problems inherent in our current tanking situation, and if we're going to redesign these ships to compensate for these problems.
Firstly, we are very aware of the many problems we're facing in tanking design at the moment. The balance between active and passive tanks, and between armor and shield (and honour) tanking are both in need of work. ASBs have made parts of this problem better (adding new interesting gameplay and making "active" tanking more popular) while making other parts worse (too good in many circumstances, and skewing the meta further towards shield). Armor and shield tanking balance suffers because mass (and velocity) penalties are far more severe than signature radius penalties in most circumstances, and to a lesser extent because of the difference between shield hitting at the start of a cycle and armor hitting at the end. This is especially harmful for active tanking Gallente blaster ships that need that speed to get within range.
These problems are real and we are working on them, but the solution isn't to skew the ships themselves too far in the opposite direction. Our goals are to hit the problems at their source.
That being said there may be things we end up doing to these ships to help smooth things out, such as reducing cycle times and/or tweaking the mass of the armor tankers down a bit. We're going to keep working on these ships up to and beyond release in the Winter.


Anyway, ASBs WILL be eating a nerf. And frankly, I'm pretty thankful about that because I'm tired of seeing people dual ASB tank literally every ship - regardless of how strong it's armor bonuses are.

Quote:
Second, cool it costs the same as 2 mods that were used before to do the same, now you have an empty mid slot and not much fitting left, unless you give up a low slot to add a fitting mod in the lows so you can use the empty mid slot for something besides a T1 tracking computer.. So you are still giving something up. Saying that everyone using it means its over powered would mean that the drake needs to be nerfed cause its half of every fleet they fly up north in the CFC and Zealots need to be nerfed cause that's all NC. counters those overpowered drakes with. And we should probably adjust those trimark and shield extender rigs cause god knows "everyone" is using those all the time so they must be over powered. Everyone using something means nothing, its only OP if there is no viable counter, in this case there is, out DPS the ASB or and here's the secret you seem to be missing, wait till it reloads and burn him down while his active tank is reloading for a minute. If a minute long reload timer in a 1 v 1 fight isn't a drawback to you I don't know what is.


We staged a duel vs a corpmate a couple of days ago. His Ferox tanked 2 close range gank canes and an Ishtar (~2600 DPS) for 4 minutes and 20 seconds. He turned his guns off to avoid killing the Hurricanes. Yes the down side exists, but it's not nearly as debilitating as you seem to believe it is.

-Liang

Ed: And really, if you needed any more proof that ASB's are OP as hell: a dual XL tanked Myrm (T2 fit/T1 rigs) is superior in every way - including tank longevity - to a triple deadspace/faction/t2 rigged Myrmidon.

Seriously.


"ASBs have made parts of this problem better (adding new interesting gameplay and making "active" tanking more popular)"

I find it interesting in your first post you omit the part that CCP said that disagrees with your post and said they liked a lot of what it has done and indicate it needs to be adjusted, not massively nerfed or removed as you and your little band of "its not fair-ites" keep parroting.

As far as 2 canes AND an ishtar not being able to kill a ferox goes, I'd LOVE to see a video showing how you fit those canes and what drones the ishtar was using and the skill sheets for those pilots cause I've seen similar fights and the ferox had to run like HELL to avoid death because an auto neuting webbing cane + auto nueting webbing cane + large drone ishtar = a VERY dead ferox becuase who cares that your tank is run on cap boosters if you dont have the cap to shoot back? Unless of course your drone and guns skills are as much of a joke as this thread in which case, yeah that ferox will own you, repeatedly.

The LULZ Boat.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#51 - 2012-08-28 22:39:31 UTC
Garreth Vlox wrote:

"ASBs have made parts of this problem better (adding new interesting gameplay and making "active" tanking more popular)"

I find it interesting in your first post you omit the part that CCP said that disagrees with your post and said they liked a lot of what it has done and indicate it needs to be adjusted, not massively nerfed or removed as you and your little band of "its not fair-ites" keep parroting.


ASBs have made parts of the gameplay better. Your choices are a bit more than "Fit Buffer" or "Fit ******* Expensive". Now it's "Fit Buffer In Fleets" and "Fit ASBs EVERYWHERE ELSE". That's some kind of improvement, sure. However, you're neglecting his further statement: they are too good.

Quote:

As far as 2 canes AND an ishtar not being able to kill a ferox goes, I'd LOVE to see a video showing how you fit those canes and what drones the ishtar was using and the skill sheets for those pilots cause I've seen similar fights and the ferox had to run like HELL to avoid death because an auto neuting webbing cane + auto nueting webbing cane + large drone ishtar = a VERY dead ferox becuase who cares that your tank is run on cap boosters if you dont have the cap to shoot back? Unless of course your drone and guns skills are as much of a joke as this thread in which case, yeah that ferox will own you, repeatedly.


Funny thing - I actually frapsed it. The only question is if I'll get enough motivation to burn a day of my play time encoding and uploading it. I'll link the skills of the Ishtar pilot in a second, but everyone involved was about as poorly skilled. Here: http://bit.ly/Pp83xL

The Hurricanes varied, but were 425mm fit with RF EMP. I believe one had missiles and the other neuts. One had ECM drones and the other Warriors. The Ishtar was kite fit with 3 long range guns, 3 drone damage mods, and Berzerker IIs. Again someone calculated the DPS at 2600 DPS, which was tanked for 4 minutes and 18 seconds. At the end of the video as the Ferox is about to dip into armor, his reload completes.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Ensign X
#52 - 2012-08-28 22:49:10 UTC
Adam Junior wrote:
Ensign X wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Please let me enjoy an armor version of the ASB. Would be nice for Gallente blaster boats to be allowed to play the game again.


Translation: More homogenization please!


I know right! We can't have all of the races working, that'd be too homogeneous!


There's nothing at all wrong with armor tanking right now. It's different from shield tanking and that's the way it should be. If you think shield tanking is somehow OP now, which I assume you do since you believe armor tanking is broken, consider the consequences of homogenization before flapping your gums.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#53 - 2012-08-28 22:56:37 UTC
Ensign X wrote:

There's nothing at all wrong with armor tanking right now. It's different from shield tanking and that's the way it should be. If you think shield tanking is somehow OP now, which I assume you do since you believe armor tanking is broken, consider the consequences of homogenization before flapping your gums.


The biggest problem with armor tanking is the reliance on rigs that slow you down. Velocity is a much bigger penalty than sig radius - because it affects the same things (damage application to you) as well as more (your mobility).

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Ginger Barbarella
#54 - 2012-08-28 23:00:35 UTC
Orzo Torasson wrote:
It's been a long time since I've seen a non-ASB assault frigate fit in space.


I fit one on a Nightmare to play with (never really used it), and one on a Navy 'geddon (used it too much)... They don't excite me. Sorry, guys. I'm not joining the Anti-ASB goosesteppers, but I just have no need for one at this point.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2012-08-28 23:06:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Garreth Vlox
Liang Nuren wrote:
Garreth Vlox wrote:

"ASBs have made parts of this problem better (adding new interesting gameplay and making "active" tanking more popular)"

I find it interesting in your first post you omit the part that CCP said that disagrees with your post and said they liked a lot of what it has done and indicate it needs to be adjusted, not massively nerfed or removed as you and your little band of "its not fair-ites" keep parroting.


ASBs have made parts of the gameplay better. Your choices are a bit more than "Fit Buffer" or "Fit ******* Expensive". Now it's "Fit Buffer In Fleets" and "Fit ASBs EVERYWHERE ELSE". That's some kind of improvement, sure. However, you're neglecting his further statement: they are too good.

Quote:

As far as 2 canes AND an ishtar not being able to kill a ferox goes, I'd LOVE to see a video showing how you fit those canes and what drones the ishtar was using and the skill sheets for those pilots cause I've seen similar fights and the ferox had to run like HELL to avoid death because an auto neuting webbing cane + auto nueting webbing cane + large drone ishtar = a VERY dead ferox becuase who cares that your tank is run on cap boosters if you dont have the cap to shoot back? Unless of course your drone and guns skills are as much of a joke as this thread in which case, yeah that ferox will own you, repeatedly.


Funny thing - I actually frapsed it. The only question is if I'll get enough motivation to burn a day of my play time encoding and uploading it. I'll link the skills of the Ishtar pilot in a second, but everyone involved was about as poorly skilled. Here: http://bit.ly/Pp83xL

The Hurricanes varied, but were 425mm fit with RF EMP. I believe one had missiles and the other neuts. One had ECM drones and the other Warriors. The Ishtar was kite fit with 3 long range guns, 3 drone damage mods, and Berzerker IIs. Again someone calculated the DPS at 2600 DPS, which was tanked for 4 minutes and 18 seconds. At the end of the video as the Ferox is about to dip into armor, his reload completes.

-Liang


So you took three randomly fit ships that did not complement each other in any way had them use different pvp doctines( max dps cane = missile fit / brawler cane = nuet fit. /kiting ishtar)

You put ecm drones on instead of DPS on one cane when both should be flying wariors or target painter drones or even nuet drones to shut his hybrid/blasters off entirely P.S. if he can't shoot he can't kill your canes... Pro tip is free of charge btw.

And then you have the ishtar which in this case is begging you to load it up with drone damage mods get in close to throw some more nuets on the ferox and then drop sentries as all of you rigs should be sentry DPS rigs. Edit*

So all in all we have a ferox with no cap = can't shoot .. webbed to hell so he can't move, being target painted by 10 drones, chewed on by 5 sentries, and being shot by 2 canes point blank with T2 220 autos loaded with the point blank T2 ammo (no I don't remember the name) Now assuming you have lvl 5 or at least level 4 supports gunnery skills and level 5 gun skills (and oh yeah btw the guns better all be T2 or GTFO right now) you add all that up and there is no ******* way that ferox survives.

But the way you did it?
Yeah, the ferox will win.

It's called planning maybe you should make one next time.

The LULZ Boat.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#56 - 2012-08-28 23:11:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Garreth Vlox wrote:

So you took three randomly fit ships that did not complement each other in any way had them use different pvp doctines( max dps cane = missile fit / brawler cane = nuet fit. /kiting ishtar)

You put ecm drones on instead of DPS on one cane when both should be flying wariors or target painter drones or even nuet drones to shut his hybrid/blasters off entirely P.S. if he can't shoot he can't kill your canes... Pro tip is free of charge btw.

And then you have the ishtar which in this case is begging you to load it up with drone damage mods get in close to throw some more nuets on the ferox and then drop sentries or the heavies you brought, I would probably use setnries with all the nueting and webbing already on field.

So all in all we have a ferox with no cap = can't shoot .. webbed to hell so he can't move, being target painted by 10 drones, chewed on by 5 sentries, and being shot by 2 canes point blank with T2 220 autos loaded with the point blank T2 ammo (no I don't remember the name) Now assuming you have lvl 5 or at least level 4 supports gunnery skills and level 5 gun skills (and oh yeah btw the guns better all be T2 or GTFO right now) you add all that up and there is no ******* way that ferox survives.

But the way you did it?
Yeah, the ferox will win.

It's called planning maybe you should make one next time.


So... all of what you said is meaningless. 2600 DPS for 4 minutes and 20 seconds.

-Liang

Ed: Wait, I actually went back and read what you're saying. Did you seriously ******* suggest 10 target painting drones and a close range no tank brawl Ishtar?

...... Lol

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2012-08-28 23:16:12 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Garreth Vlox wrote:

So you took three randomly fit ships that did not complement each other in any way had them use different pvp doctines( max dps cane = missile fit / brawler cane = nuet fit. /kiting ishtar)

You put ecm drones on instead of DPS on one cane when both should be flying wariors or target painter drones or even nuet drones to shut his hybrid/blasters off entirely P.S. if he can't shoot he can't kill your canes... Pro tip is free of charge btw.

And then you have the ishtar which in this case is begging you to load it up with drone damage mods get in close to throw some more nuets on the ferox and then drop sentries or the heavies you brought, I would probably use setnries with all the nueting and webbing already on field.

So all in all we have a ferox with no cap = can't shoot .. webbed to hell so he can't move, being target painted by 10 drones, chewed on by 5 sentries, and being shot by 2 canes point blank with T2 220 autos loaded with the point blank T2 ammo (no I don't remember the name) Now assuming you have lvl 5 or at least level 4 supports gunnery skills and level 5 gun skills (and oh yeah btw the guns better all be T2 or GTFO right now) you add all that up and there is no ******* way that ferox survives.

But the way you did it?
Yeah, the ferox will win.

It's called planning maybe you should make one next time.


So... all of what you said is meaningless. 2600 DPS for 4 minutes and 20 seconds.

-Liang


Are you even reading my posts?

If he can't shoot you then who ******* cares how long he can tank you?
He has to reload the device.
Once he runs out he is ****** and you can't die while holding him if he can't shoot.

The LULZ Boat.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#58 - 2012-08-28 23:19:09 UTC
Garreth Vlox wrote:

Are you even reading my posts?

If he can't shoot you then who ******* cares how long he can tank you?
He has to reload the device.
Once he runs out he is ****** and you can't die while holding him if he can't shoot.


I agree that you can do this to a Ferox. It's my biggest concern with people doing it on a Ferox. You cannot, however, do this to ships that don't require capacitor to fire. Furthermore, a nos is usually a pretty decent counter to non-overwhelming neuts. But no, the point of the exercise was to see how long he could hold up.

And the answer to that is 2600 DPS for 4 minutes and 20 seconds.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Ensign X
#59 - 2012-08-28 23:20:06 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
The biggest problem with armor tanking is the reliance on rigs that slow you down. Velocity is a much bigger penalty than sig radius - because it affects the same things (damage application to you) as well as more (your mobility).

-Liang


I agree that the penalties for Shield tanking vs. Armor tanking are out of whack, specifically rig penalties, however that's not really my point. ASB's need adjustment, but that adjustment should not involve giving the same mechanic to Armor tanks.

My point is that armor and shield should be different. I don't think anybody wants to see XL Shield extenders to match 1600mm Armor Plates or Crystal sets for armor tanking or Slave sets for Shield tanking.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#60 - 2012-08-28 23:27:00 UTC
Ensign X wrote:

I agree that the penalties for Shield tanking vs. Armor tanking are out of whack, specifically rig penalties, however that's not really my point. ASB's need adjustment, but that adjustment should not involve giving the same mechanic to Armor tanks.

My point is that armor and shield should be different. I don't think anybody wants to see XL Shield extenders to match 1600mm Armor Plates or Crystal sets for armor tanking or Slave sets for Shield tanking.


Yeah that seems pretty legit. I really like variety and the first things that need looking at are ASB dominance and armor rig penalties.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.