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Of Squid and Peacocks or The Differences between State and Federation

Author
Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#61 - 2012-08-28 20:51:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Paul Oliver
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
Why a squid?
lol it's a term I hear around the common areas of the FNA a lot actually. Apparently it has to do with how "caldari" rhymes with "calamari" which is a dish consisting of tentacles from a squid, a large, often predatory lifeform found on various aquatic worlds.

Also I suspect it has to do with how some view the State as having "many arms" that extend in a multitude of directions.
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#62 - 2012-08-28 21:20:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Makkal Hanaya
In Shinsuru, there's a species of cold water fish that lives under the northern arctic circle called the Pearl Diano. They're slim, silvery fish about the length of one's forearm. They swim together in a massive swarm and what makes them peculiar is that they survive off much larger creatures.

When blood falls into the water, they frenzy, stripping flesh from bone with alarming speed. Whalers talk about whales beached with massive chunks torn out of their sides.

Far to the south, Shinsuru has an ancient coral reef system. The fish there thrive in the warm, tropical waters. They are colorful, bright and come in a multitude of different shapes and sizes.

I assume if the fish of the coral reefs and the Pearl Diano were to create their own respective governments and culture, they would look very different and seem odd to one another.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#63 - 2012-08-29 00:15:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
Paul Oliver,

I write to you respectfully, with the understanding that some of those participating in this thread may have misunderstood your genuine and honest intentions to learn about foreign cultures and how they compare and relate. Before I speak further, I request that you consider my words without malicious or condescending tone. I write to you now as your peer, a fellow capsule pilot and human being - not as a Caldari, or Ishukone employee.

I think perhaps that others may be requesting a less defensive stance from you (or offensive, as they perceive it) when you speak. While I am sure you feel backed into a wall by now, it may be better to simply ask benign questions. If learning about the Caldari is your goal, consider asking specific questions. Ask what sort of food we eat, what we do with our off time, what our hopes and dreams are. Ask us about our native religion, or how and why we approach social situations a certain way. Questions are the best way to learn.

As an example, instead of criticizing Caldari architecture as bland or unimpressive (which you are culturally justified to think), ask us why we build them that way. The wording of your questions is paramount. In this medium where we cannot see your facial expressions or hear the tone of your voice, the specific wording is essential for us to understand your intent.

I'm sure you're aware how bad trolling can be in these venues, so I suggest honestly that you consider choosing your words more carefully. Perhaps others might be more receptive to your opinions if they read your posts with a more academic tone.

---

For those responding to or even retaliating against Paul Oliver, I say this: The only way this thread will see any semblence of legitimacy and usefulness is if the fighting stops and the honest discussion begins. Entertain no more mud slinging, and no more 'he started it'. I know many of you here to be above that sort of tactic.

Katrina Oniseki

Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2012-08-29 02:10:47 UTC
Paul Oliver wrote:
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
Why a squid?
lol it's a term I hear around the common areas of the FNA a lot actually. Apparently it has to do with how "caldari" rhymes with "calamari"


And I was under the impress calamari was the combination of the words Caldari and Amarr. (Calamari)
Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#65 - 2012-08-29 02:47:39 UTC
Sound advise Katrina Oniseki, I admit that I sometimes forget that certain elements of communication I largely rely on in non IGS situations such as eye contact, facial expression, etc aren't present here and so when I say one thing people might take it another way. I promise to work on that...
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
Emile Belfleur
Solar Zouaves
#66 - 2012-08-29 14:43:57 UTC
I admit to some hesitancy in involving myself in a discussion that already looks like a wreck, but Oliver has both asked and demonstrated a need for other citizens of the Federation to involve themselves in the debate, so I will. To what extent it will come off as having his back I'm not sure, but here goes:

I've grown up in the region of Solitude - more specifically, in Gererique, on the second planet from the sun, on which my family owns a spot of agricultural land. Aside from occasional Serpentis lowlives, Intaki loafers and Ni-Kunni contraband runners, it's a civil and quiet corner of space.

We grow a varied assortment of produce, mostly wheat and vegetables, but also fruit and berries. Our property also includes a handful of vineyards, from which we bottle several labels of wine. With only a fractional exception, all we produce is sold on the domestic market (the Federation-wide domestic market, that is, not system-wide or regional).

While primogeniture has largely fallen out of favor elsewhere in the Federation, it's still practiced many places in Solitude, and in Gererique, it's very common. In my family, we are quite aware - and fond - of our history. We recognize the danger that dividing up our property could pose to our family and our brand name. As such, my older brother stands to inherit all of the land and the family business, while my younger brother and I are recompensated in other ways.

On the surface, it might look like such a system would only encourage children who don't stand to inherit to split from the family and go their own ways. In practice, the opposite is true. My family is quite close-knit as a social group. We all have a vested interest in seeing each other succeed and the family business prosper, and our shared social network is invaluable to us all - far more useful and discriminating than any public welfare system could ever hope to be. Many of us have also invested in land of our own, close to the family property. I myself own a cabin and a modest property of about 500 square kilometers of forested hills and mountains nearby, where I go hiking and hunting in my leisure time.

We expect excellence from ourselves, excellence from each other and excellence from our workers. Solitude is a fairly young region with a growing economy, and diligence and hard labor is required if it is to continue to grow. It's not uncommon to hear locals say, with equal parts pride and scorn, that this is where the money is made which the Federal authorities squander so idly elsewhere. There is no place for slackers and lay-abouts here. That is not to say we never pause to relax and enjoy the fruits of life - but doing so is far more satisfying when it's done after a day of industrious work.

We also expect diligence and good behavior from our children. We teach them to respect and heed their parents and teachers, do our best to instill in them the attitude that school is a place where you better yourself by learning useful skills and knowledge, and we don't let them walk around looking like ruffians. I dread to think what the reaction of my parents would have been if I had come home as a teen sporting one of those Minmatar tattoos so in vogue elsewhere.

That is not to say that we aim to stifle our children's minds. On the contrary, we encourage creativity, curiosity and ambition. We do teach them, however, that dreams have to be tempered by responsibility and backed up by hard work and effort.

On a whole, I can empathize with a lot of what the Caldari say about the importance of family, duty, hard work and sound business sense. Obvious differences of history, tradition and ritual aside, the greatest difference as I see it is that my family's business is its own independent enterprise. We are not beholden to a larger corporation or megacorporation. We would never allow any share of our business to fall into the hands of other people. Not outsiders, not neighbors, not even the most senior among our hired workers. It is ours and ours alone.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#67 - 2012-08-29 16:16:35 UTC
Paul Oliver wrote:
Sound advise Katrina Oniseki, I admit that I sometimes forget that certain elements of communication I largely rely on in non IGS situations such as eye contact, facial expression, etc aren't present here and so when I say one thing people might take it another way. I promise to work on that...

I have almost the same problem, just instead of eye contact, facial expression, etc, I prefer to place shotgun before me, point handgun at opponent's nose, or grasp his throat with my hand...

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Amaki Mai
Doomheim
#68 - 2012-08-29 17:15:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Amaki Mai
I've often heard it said that Caldari ships are designed by two different commitees, those commitees not having reference to each others work until the job is complete.

That said, what Caldari ships lack in aesthetics, they more than make up for in performance and I suppose that function should define form.
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#69 - 2012-08-29 17:25:27 UTC
Shaalira D'arc wrote:
Many IGS threads are thinly-veiled invitations for jingoism and stereotyping.

You've dispensed with the veil.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn

Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#70 - 2012-08-29 17:25:40 UTC
Emile Belfleur wrote:
On a whole, I can empathize with a lot of what the Caldari say about the importance of family, duty, hard work and sound business sense. Obvious differences of history, tradition and ritual aside, the greatest difference as I see it is that my family's business is its own independent enterprise. We are not beholden to a larger corporation or megacorporation. We would never allow any share of our business to fall into the hands of other people. Not outsiders, not neighbors, not even the most senior among our hired workers. It is ours and ours alone.

Thank you for posting Emile, and yes I totally agree on your point about not being beholden to larger megacorps.

Back home on Duripant my family to this day still helps maintain a community hydroponic garden and I remember the thing I always liked most was that after the harvest we didn't sell off the produce for a profit to the trade ships that would pass through but just shared it with each other, and if we had an overstock of something that we couldn't properly store it was customary that we should freely offer it to neighboring communities and they would do the same. My mother used to tell me that we did this because in the ancient times there was a point when many of the communities on Duripant were unable to sustain themselves, and it was only because people freely gave of themselves that we avoided civil war over resources and survived to eventually prosper.
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#71 - 2012-08-30 05:12:40 UTC
This isn't a difficult discussion.

The Caldari State is a mono-ethnic interstellar state founded to protect the culture and descendants of a single planet, Caldari Prime.

The Federation is a political and economic alliance of multiple planets, based on free trade and governance.

Both very different considering what each sovereignty was founded for.
Amaki Mai
Doomheim
#72 - 2012-08-30 05:44:32 UTC
I thought that the Achura, Deteis and Civire were different ethnicities?
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#73 - 2012-08-30 05:53:22 UTC
Amaki Mai wrote:
I thought that the Achura, Deteis and Civire were different ethnicities?


Both the Deteis and Civire are from a single planet with the same culture (relatively speaking). The Achura have no bearing on the fact that the Caldari State is still based upon the culture of that single planet in Luminaire.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#74 - 2012-08-30 10:36:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Amaki Mai wrote:
I thought that the Achura, Deteis and Civire were different ethnicities?


Both the Deteis and Civire are from a single planet with the same culture (relatively speaking). The Achura have no bearing on the fact that the Caldari State is still based upon the culture of that single planet in Luminaire.


Oddly enough, this is the exact same complaint that the Caldari homeworlders had about the Federation when they seceded from it - that its politics were dictated by the ethnic Gallentean majority. If memory serves, Gallenteans are still the largest ethnic group in the Federation by a large margin, and still have a controlling interest in the political process. It is, after all, still called "the Gallente Federation", rather than for example "The Federal United Star Systems" (the acronym for which would be FUSS - how apt!)

If you think the ethnocentric nature of the State is a matter of shame for us, then you're failing to grasp why it was founded in the first place. We wanted to live by OUR culture, OUR rules and OUR morals. If persons or cultures other than those of Caldari Prime descent find that their outlook on life is compatible with our own, then they can do perfectly well in the State and find themselves perfectly accepted.

Is there racial tension? Of course there is! Human nature is far too stubbornly stupid to eliminate such frippery. But in a Meritocracy, a manager who doesn't promote their people on merit, and instead promotes by ethnic group isn't doing their own job properly, and is setting themselves up to be replaced. For those with competence, skill and a good work ethic, you would be hard pressed to find a society with more opportunities for success than the State.For the incompetent, lazy and unproductive, the safety nets and vast expensive tax-funded institutions of the Federation may be more to their liking. We won't stop them from leaving, we just won't pay for their shuttle ticket either.

The whole point is that it's our society by choice, and we won't bomb you for trying to leave it.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

iyammarrok
Drunken Beaver Mining
Gnawthority
#75 - 2012-08-30 14:33:39 UTC  |  Edited by: iyammarrok
Paul.

Let me be blunt.
The most likely reason that you are recieving few responses from Federation citizens is that you have proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you are one of the things that is wrong with the Federation at this time.
A poster-child for the Roden establishment.

The Federation is an entity that accepts other cultures, and welcomes them, so long as those cultures do not infringe upon the right of every individual to personal freedom.
That is the crux of our conflict with both the Amarrians and the Caldari, The former believing that all should follow their own rules, and the latter believing in collective gain over individual freedoms.

At least, in my opinion, that is the belief the Caldari people aspire to.
In the past, their 'elite' took them from that path, The current CPD leadership has taken them too far in the other direction. As can be seen by certain capsuleers within the State Protectorate, xenophobia and genocidal hatred have become some of the loudest voices, which ultimately is a shame.
Should the future bring the Caldari people back to the purely meritocratic cultural zeitgeist they aspire to, I feel the war between our peoples may one day come to a close.

Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.

Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#76 - 2012-08-30 17:31:31 UTC
iyammarrok wrote:
Paul.

Let me be blunt.
The most likely reason that you are recieving few responses from Federation citizens is that you have proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you are one of the things that is wrong with the Federation at this time.
A poster-child for the Roden establishment.

I feel that you're being a little rash in your judgement about me, as time goes by and I become more accustomed to the vibrational tone of this IGS I look forward to proving you "beyond a shadow of a doubt" wrong. Smile
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#77 - 2012-08-30 17:47:34 UTC
One thing I'll note.

A squid is an animal which has almost perfectly adapted to its environment. It has numerous survival tricks, and is near the top of its particular food chain.

A peacock, while it is pretty, is a big, dumb, flightless bird.
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#78 - 2012-08-30 17:51:14 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
One thing I'll note.

A squid is an animal which has almost perfectly adapted to its environment. It has numerous survival tricks, and is near the top of its particular food chain.

A peacock, while it is pretty, is a big, dumb, flightless bird.


"Peacock" is a more apt description for capsuleers of any race who like to sit around and make a lot of noise boasting and posturing without any actual action to back their noise up. The term most used for pilots serving under the FDU's banner is "frog".

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#79 - 2012-08-30 17:53:12 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
One thing I'll note.

A squid is an animal which has almost perfectly adapted to its environment. It has numerous survival tricks, and is near the top of its particular food chain.

A peacock, while it is pretty, is a big, dumb, flightless bird.


"Peacock" is a more apt description for capsuleers of any race who like to sit around and make a lot of noise boasting and posturing without any actual action to back their noise up. The term most used for pilots serving under the FDU's banner is "frog".


Really?

Why?
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#80 - 2012-08-30 20:46:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Makkal Hanaya
I've heard of a couple of etymologies for the term:

  • There's a popular ethnic Gallente dish called grenouille made from frogs.
  • Like frogs, Gallente sit about constantly making a great deal of noise while saying nothing of substance.
  • Gallente ships are green and have an organic look. One of their now-defunct transport ships looked like a frog.
  • Gallente is similar to a Sebestor word - gha-lan - which is a small, hopping amphibian.


And to be sure, it's an ethnic term, not a nationalistic one. If you apply it to an Intaki, you're doing it wrong. Though it has spread to mean a general Federation citizen. Whether you think that's appropriate depends on if you're a descriptivist or a proscriptivist.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.