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Rookie System Page Update

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#141 - 2012-08-28 18:40:06 UTC
Fiachra Shine wrote:
Are we talking about just starter systems here? If so then you're saying a noob can be safe as long as he/she stays put in one system. Not much of a "New player experience", imho. Isn't ccp trying to expand that experience?
It would basically be the same systems as through times immemorial (up until the point where they decided to muddy the waters with this new and unclear ruling), and the expanded NPE still takes place in those systems. In fact, it would rather provide a good opportunity to teach them the difference between the basics of operating your ship in a controlled environment and living in the larger, dynamic EVE universe.

Quote:
I've not done the SoE arc, so maybe you're saying all of the systems involved in it would provide about an hour's worth of mining combined? Well, if you tell me that I have no reason to disbelieve you. I'd like confirmation from a second source though.
No, I'm talking about per system. If they want to switch systems, those miners will have to travel without the safety they crave. Again, it's not really that different from what we already have, aside from making it perfectly clear who's being protected — in fact, that's a large part of why it's being suggested.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#142 - 2012-08-28 18:45:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Tippia wrote:
In fact, it would rather provide a good opportunity to teach them the difference between the basics of operating your ship in a controlled environment and living in the larger, dynamic EVE universe.


So it's about finding the loopholes after all.

Btw, current ruling is crystal clear.
Fiachra Shine
Pariah Army
#143 - 2012-08-28 18:49:55 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Fiachra Shine wrote:
Are we talking about just starter systems here? If so then you're saying a noob can be safe as long as he/she stays put in one system. Not much of a "New player experience", imho. Isn't ccp trying to expand that experience?
It would basically be the same systems as through times immemorial (up until the point where they decided to muddy the waters with this new and unclear ruling), and the expanded NPE still takes place in those systems. In fact, it would rather provide a good opportunity to teach them the difference between the basics of operating your ship in a controlled environment and living in the larger, dynamic EVE universe.

Quote:
I've not done the SoE arc, so maybe you're saying all of the systems involved in it would provide about an hour's worth of mining combined? Well, if you tell me that I have no reason to disbelieve you. I'd like confirmation from a second source though.
No, I'm talking about per system. If they want to switch systems, those miners will have to travel without the safety they crave. Again, it's not really that different from what we already have, aside from making it perfectly clear who's being protected — in fact, that's a large part of why it's being suggested.


I'm not taking sides here, just looking to find flaws because you asked if anyone could. I want that to be clear.
Also, being relatively new I accept that any flaws I see may in fact be....well, flawed.

That being said, what's to stop a miner (I'm not one so it's a genuine question) from having alts in several of these systems at once? Wouldn't that make his/her hour of mining quite profitable? And risk free?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#144 - 2012-08-28 18:49:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
So it's about finding the loopholes after all.
What loopholes?

Quote:
Btw, current ruling is crystal clear.
…aside from not defining what you're not allowed to do, where you're not allowed to do it, and whom you're not allowed to do it to.

Fiachra Shine wrote:
That being said, what's to stop a miner (I'm not one so it's a genuine question) from having alts in several of these systems at once? Wouldn't that make his/her hour of mining quite profitable? And risk free?
Nothing. It would just be a huge waste of time and resources: for $15 a month you get one hour of mining veldspar a day. Each of those alts has to be its own account, remember, so compared to what the same person could earn by being in a normal system, he's throwing away billions of ISK a month.
Brit Green
Hagkaup
#145 - 2012-08-28 19:08:42 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…aside from not defining what you're not allowed to do

mess with n00bs
Tippia wrote:
, where you're not allowed to do it,
where n00bs hang out
Tippia wrote:
and whom you're not allowed to do it to.
n00bs
Fiachra Shine
Pariah Army
#146 - 2012-08-28 19:16:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Fiachra Shine
Tippia wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
So it's about finding the loopholes after all.

Fiachra Shine wrote:
That being said, what's to stop a miner (I'm not one so it's a genuine question) from having alts in several of these systems at once? Wouldn't that make his/her hour of mining quite profitable? And risk free?
Nothing. It would just be a huge waste of time and resources: for $15 a month you get one hour of mining veldspar a day. Each of those alts has to be its own account, remember, so compared to what the same person could earn by being in a normal system, he's throwing away billions of ISK a month.


Ok, so the hypothetical miner wouldn't make much by leaving his fleet in those systems, and as you said, getting to and from the systems would expose him or her to the normal risks of EvE(risks they currently cannot mitigate). It would still provide an exploitable hour(going on your word here).

< not a miner. How long does the average miner (not botters) spend shooting rocks per sitting? Would an hour of, not only mitigated, but completely removed risk be worth the travel time?

Edit: If some miner would tell me to STFU 'cause I don't know what I'm talking about then I'll be happy to do so.
Matriarch Prime
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#147 - 2012-08-28 19:30:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Matriarch Prime
I think you guys are too caught up with some older players who may or may not, somehow manage to use this or that to their advantage. I'm pretty sure anything of significant profile would be noticed, and anything else remains it is just edge case scenario that isn't worth the effort to take versus the simplest solution. The solution which has already been put into place.

The GM are going to protect their money maker, so you can bet that the noobies are going to protected as best they can. And it highly unlikely that you would end up in their sights without clear justification. They are professionals, they aren't in the business of banning legitimate players. That would be just as bad for business.

This business about what if a noobie buys 50 plex and carts them around in a frigate like its la di da is just arguing the extremes. You can't design for edge cases with efficiency.

All this back and forth looks silly when you realize that if you just change the nonsensical agression mechanic suddenly you have no reason to argue. If the rules make sense in the first place, they there wouldn't be a problem. You guys are barking the wrong tree.

I like big guns. I can not lie. You other suckas can't deny. When I warp in, with an itty bity sig, with an arty in your face, you get sprung. You want to pull out your debuffs, 'cause you want to loot my stuff...deep, in a worm with nary, an escape but you can't stop staring. 'Cause, Oh crap!, Baby's got Point!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#148 - 2012-08-28 19:43:04 UTC
Brit Green wrote:
mess with n00bs
…i.e unclear. Define “mess with”.
Quote:
where n00bs hang out
…i.e. unclear (and, actually, incorrect). Define where they hang out.
Quote:
n00bs
…i.e. unclear. Define “n00b”.

Fiachra Shine wrote:
Ok, so the hypothetical miner wouldn't make much by leaving his fleet in those systems, and as you said, getting to and from the systems would expose him or her to the normal risks of EvE(risks they currently cannot mitigate). It would still provide an exploitable hour(going on your word here).

< not a miner. How long does the average miner (not botters) spend shooting rocks per sitting? Would an hour of, not only mitigated, but completely removed risk be worth the travel time?
For one, we're talking about someone in or near the UTC+10 time zone who's so afraid of loss that they're willing to deal with all the inconvenience of logging in for one specific hour every day to get that increase in security — they're not going to do any travelling outside. But sure, for the sake of argument…

For those willing to travel outside, they will have their bases well set up already losing out several millions of ISK to travel just to go from 99.99% safety to 100% isn't a sensible proposition, especially since the travel part itself increases the risk. The average miner seems to spend a few hours at a stretch in his well-mapped belts, and the more he wants to earn, the farther away it will be from a newbie system (so he's losing more per minute and have to spend more minutes travelling). Forum outrage to the contrary, they don't actually lose ships that often. Personally, I managed to lose a total of zero in my two years of mining, and that was back when ganks were actually cheap and common (and ore worth squat so recovery would have taken a while). Had I spent, say, 5 minutes a day travelling back and forth to such a safe system, it would have amounted to a fitted Hulk's worth of lost income over that time — far more than I ended up losing by not making that journey.

…and again, if it's actually a problem — which it hasn't been so far — it's not particularly hard to teach the newbies mining through missions and just nuke the belts completely.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#149 - 2012-08-28 19:50:05 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…aside from not defining what you're not allowed to do, where you're not allowed to do it, and whom you're not allowed to do it to.


To get answers to all your questions you need to train Reading Comprehension 5 and Common Sense 5 first.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#150 - 2012-08-28 19:54:13 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
To get answers to all your questions you need to train Reading Comprehension 5 and Common Sense 5 first.
…except that reading comprehension doesn't work since they are explicitly not described anywhere, and that since they're not described, the sense is not common in any sense of the word. Oh, and they're not questions, so you should probably put that first skill in your queue.
Fiachra Shine
Pariah Army
#151 - 2012-08-28 19:55:32 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Fiachra Shine wrote:
Ok, so the hypothetical miner wouldn't make much by leaving his fleet in those systems, and as you said, getting to and from the systems would expose him or her to the normal risks of EvE(risks they currently cannot mitigate). It would still provide an exploitable hour(going on your word here).

< not a miner. How long does the average miner (not botters) spend shooting rocks per sitting? Would an hour of, not only mitigated, but completely removed risk be worth the travel time?
For one, we're talking about someone in or near the UTC+10 time zone who's so afraid of loss that they're willing to deal with all the inconvenience of logging in for one specific hour every day to get that increase in security — they're not going to do any travelling outside. But sure, for the sake of argument…

For those willing to travel outside, they will have their bases well set up already losing out several millions of ISK to travel just to go from 99.99% safety to 100% isn't a sensible proposition, especially since the travel part itself increases the risk. The average miner seems to spend a few hours at a stretch in his well-mapped belts, and the more he wants to earn, the farther away it will be from a newbie system (so he's losing more per minute and have to spend more minutes travelling). Forum outrage to the contrary, they don't actually lose ships that often. Personally, I managed to lose a total of zero in my two years of mining, and that was back when ganks were actually cheap and common (and ore worth squat so recovery would have taken a while). Had I spent, say, 5 minutes a day travelling back and forth to such a safe system, it would have amounted to a fitted Hulk's worth of lost income over that time — far more than I ended up losing by not making that journey.

…and again, if it's actually a problem — which it hasn't been so far — it's not particularly hard to teach the newbies mining through missions and just nuke the belts completely.


Fair enough. Exploit exists, but is pointless to employ. I bow to your superior wisdom in this matter
Brit Green
Hagkaup
#152 - 2012-08-28 19:56:07 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Brit Green wrote:
mess with n00bs
…i.e unclear. Define “mess with”.
Quote:
where n00bs hang out
…i.e. unclear (and, actually, incorrect). Define where they hang out.
Quote:
n00bs
…i.e. unclear. Define “n00b”.


you want definitions use google. I aint your *****.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#153 - 2012-08-28 20:01:54 UTC
Fiachra Shine wrote:
Fair enough. Exploit exists, but is pointless to employ. I bow to your superior wisdom in this matter
Basically, I consider it much the same kind of “exploit” as sitting in a station and doing all your business remotely from there. Tbh, I'd say that the same miner could get more money for less effort and with more security by not undocking and just playing the market in the same system.

Brit Green wrote:
you want definitions use google. I aint your *****.
Yes you are. If you want to illustrate clarity, then it's up to you to demonstrate it, not google. Since you are unwilling to, it remains unclear.
Brit Green
Hagkaup
#154 - 2012-08-28 20:06:48 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Yes you are.
no I'm not
Tippia wrote:
If you want to illustrate clarity, then it's up to you to demonstrate
i did
Tippia wrote:
it remains unclear.
how sad for you
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#155 - 2012-08-28 20:10:59 UTC
Brit Green wrote:
no I'm not
Sure you are. You have just to realise it. Don't worry, it won't be long…
Quote:
i did
Nope. You referred to google, which doesn't clarify anything.
Quote:
how sad for you
Not really, since it means my point remains.
Brit Green
Hagkaup
#156 - 2012-08-28 20:18:20 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Nope. You referred to google, which doesn't clarify anything.


just tryin to help you learn common defs you dont seem to know
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#157 - 2012-08-28 20:18:57 UTC
Tippia wrote:
they are explicitly not described anywhere


Yes, they are.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#158 - 2012-08-28 20:24:50 UTC
Brit Green wrote:
just tryin to help you learn common defs you dont seem to know
Then maybe you could provide them, since that would help your claim that it's very clear.

Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Yes, they are.
Interesting. This is rather contrary to what CCP claims, so maybe you have more information than they do. Would you care to provide a link?
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#159 - 2012-08-28 20:31:25 UTC
Shouldn't those "greifers" be part of the tutorial?...OOoooooh we want to wait until after they subscribe for a month to start pushing their poo in. Ok, I kinda do stuff like that at work too.

Really, would anyone care if 1.0 systems were non-pvp systems? Who cares...let them cram in there and pay our bills to keep the hamsters on the wheels. Put some bunk lvl 1-4 agents in there and let them start wardecing each other for mining the rocks out completely 4 minutes after downtime. For them the cold harsh world of EvE will consist of shooting red crosses and being bored for a couple months.
Tah'ris Khlador
Space Ghosts.
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#160 - 2012-08-28 20:34:06 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
they are explicitly not described anywhere


Yes, they are.


I would like to see this link, since that was the whole point of my OP. Bans for parts of the Arc that were not included in the rookie page previously.

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