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Caracal vs Drake vs Raven
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Ionia Leonforte
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-08-28 16:00:52 UTC
From what it seems to be, each seems to be a more scaled up version of the one before it. Can anyone give me the pros v cons for each? I have all three but I feel there might be redundancy so I'm looking to see which one would be better for me to focus on. If anyone want's to volunteer fits for each as well, it would be appreciated.

can only use T1... only trained to use a very few T2 modules. Oh, and yeah I know... T1 fits get some hate out there, but we all gotta start somewhere! Roll
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#2 - 2012-08-28 16:08:20 UTC
I'm assuming based on context that you're looking at mission fits.

Basically the Caracal is nice if the gate won't allow a Drake. It's role is really to swat frigates, which makes it decent for L1 and L2 missions.

The Drake is normally fit as a tanky beast with meh damage, but if you crank up the number of BCUs and maybe even active tank it it gets decent. It's the go-to for Caldari ships L3 missions and can handle L4s slowly. Normally passive tanked.

The Raven doesn't have the Drake's tank. Period. And it more or less has to active tank. Unfortunately, it isn't all that ganky either. It can pull range like a boss though; range tanking is a valid approach with a Raven. It's built for cruise missiles, which is pretty meh as you have to dedicate at least one mid and two (preferably three) rig slots to damage application to make it work. Add that to the three (preferably four) lows dedicate to damage and you don't have as many slots left to play with as you might like.
Alara IonStorm
#3 - 2012-08-28 16:11:34 UTC
Caracal = Glorified Destroyer.
Drake = Best PvP of three, moderate PvE.
Raven = Best PvE

If you want to PvP Drake is your best bet of the 3, also for grinding Sec for Lvl 3 Missions. People underestimate it as a Lvl 4 Mission boat but with 3 BCU II's and Kin Fury Missles + Hobgoblins it does well especially for the price.

Raven with 3 Rigor Rigs while not the fastest mission runner edges ahead of the Drake and has the convenience of using all 4 types of Dmg while keeping its bonus.

Caracal is usually fit with Assault Missiles and used as an anti-frigate platform in small gangs. It has terrible fitting for any other medium sized weapon. Good for Lvl 2 Missions.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#4 - 2012-08-28 16:22:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Paikis
For missions: Kestrel -> Caracal -> Drake -> Raven -> Nighthawk/Tengu/Scorpion Navy Issue/Raven Navy Issue is the progression.

Zhilia is mostly correct.

The Caracal is basically a smaller, faster, less effective Drake. Although it can be fit with Heavy Missiles, its usual role is as a frigate killer with light missiles.

The Drake is probably the most loathed ship in EVE (Ironically the power comes from the weapon system, not the ship) and is pretty effective in level 3s, and can (very) slowly complete level IVs.. It has a massive tank, but cannot be active tanked effectively due to fitting requirements. You can sacrifice tank for more damage, but even fully gank fitted its damage is poor.

The Raven doesn't have the Drake's tank, but what it does have is significantly more damage. Battleship sized missiles are pretty 'meh' currently, but they will do the job, and a standard Raven will be better for level IVs than a Drake. While you *CAN* use a target painter, 3 Rigor rigs are plenty for battle cruisers and cruisers to die, and drones take care of the frigs.

If you're still asking questions like this, then the other ships listed above are not ones you should be flying yet. The best missioning ship you're going to get for the Caldari line-up is the Navy Raven, so that should be your long-term goal if you're planning to stay Caldari. If you prefer to fly fast and are willing to sacrifice some killing speed, the Tengu makes an acceptable second place on that list.

EDIT: Guns are better than missiles for almost everything. If you insist on staying Caldari, I'd suggest training Hybrid Weapons instead of/as well as missiles. The progression for gun boats in the Caldari lineup is: Merlin -> Moa -> Ferox -> Rokh. Missiles will do the job, but there is nothing more satisfying than turning your guns on and watching a battlecruiser 100kms away explode instantly.
Toroup
Prometheus Deep Core Mining and Salvage
#5 - 2012-08-28 16:25:03 UTC
I used a Drake for Lvl 2/3 missions and a Navy Raven for Lvl 4s.

My CNR rips through the Lvl 4s. I pull 127k EHP with a 20 minute cap with crap skills (I was a miner for most of my time in Eve). Besides, who need to tank when you are wiping them out at 60KM plus. If anything, the CNR makes the Lvl 4s kinda boring.
Ionia Leonforte
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-08-28 16:32:17 UTC
Thanks! I understand that I might be getting ahead of myself, which is why I was trying to find out which one of the ships should be my primary focus. In regards to each from what I'm hearing:

- It seems that the Caracal is decent to take out frigs when there are mission restrictions, but isn't really suited to take on more significant ships without some T2's beefing it up.

- The Drake has a massive passive shield tank but very low DPS (which i don't mind for missioning, I have the patience), but is only effective up to Lvl 2's.. possibly 3's.

- The Raven is a long range killing machine and if I throw on the torps and my drones, should be able to handle Lvl 4's pretty good. Even if it's EHP is alot lower then the Drake's, the increase in dps is worth it to me. But without drones I don't think it's gonna handle smaller ships too well.

This is great advice for PvE but I was also more curious is if each ship is more suited for either PvE or PvP. I do want to get into combat so I'm looking to see which ship would be more suited for each role. Kinda help to prioritize my traning.
Alara IonStorm
#7 - 2012-08-28 16:46:02 UTC
Ionia Leonforte wrote:

- The Drake has a massive passive shield tank but very low DPS (which i don't mind for missioning, I have the patience), but is only effective up to Lvl 2's.. possibly 3's.

No it is incredibly effective for Lvl 3's in fact the enemies there make it more suitable for the Drake then Lvl 2's not that it can't clean lvl 2 Missions clocks. For Lvl 4's it is slow but at max skills with 3 BCU's Fury Missiles and a Painter it is quicker then people give it credit.

Ionia Leonforte wrote:

- The Raven is a long range killing machine and if I throw on the torps and my drones, should be able to handle Lvl 4's pretty good. Even if it's EHP is alot lower then the Drake's, the increase in dps is worth it to me. But without drones I don't think it's gonna handle smaller ships too well.

Raven can be tanked well. XL Shield Booster, 3 Hardeners and a Capbooster loaded with 800's should give you more then enough tank.

Don't use Torpedo's on a Raven you want Cruise Missiles exclusively..

Ionia Leonforte wrote:

This is great advice for PvE but I was also more curious is if each ship is more suited for either PvE or PvP. I do want to get into combat so I'm looking to see which ship would be more suited for each role. Kinda help to prioritize my traning.

Drake is best out of the 3 for PvP. Most used fleet ship in the game, speed and brawl fits for small gangs. It is worth the skill point investment.

Caracals are not so hot really.

Raven is a DPS Hammer for camps where you have lots of tackle. It does that well enough but not a wide envelop of use. Not really that great at PvP.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#8 - 2012-08-28 16:57:34 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:

Raven is a DPS Hammer for camps where you have lots of tackle. It does that well enough but not a wide envelop of use. Not really that great at PvP.


Lots of tackle and target painters. But yes. The damage output of a Raven is out of this world if you can apply it.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Ionia Leonforte
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-08-28 17:04:45 UTC
I guess the Caracal is pretty much useless unless I'm running a low level mission... what about tackling with it though? Hmm...

From what I see in TVP channel, the Raven is mainly used as a sniper for incursions but nobody wants to use the Drake. II think it's because the Raven has way more DPS then the Drake, so then why wouldn't the Raven be more effective at PvP as well? The range seems like it would be a huge benefit as well.

I could focus on training the Drake's skills up, I'm currently at 30k ehp with over 50% resistance to all types with T1 mods... It would take a couple Tornados to take me out so I feel I'm pretty tanky right now. But I know with T2's the tank is crazy! (that's the issue, I would have to dedicate myself to training up those skills at the expense of being able to use other ships or careers, etc.)

I would have thought a battleship would be more attractive in PvP because of the DPS. But it seems I get the best of both worlds with the Drake... an extremely effective mission runner as well as PvPer. I just wanted to know which ship would be worth the time investment to train to get the most out of; which ship I could be the most versatile with.

Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#10 - 2012-08-28 17:14:12 UTC
Ionia Leonforte wrote:
From what it seems to be, each seems to be a more scaled up version of the one before it. Can anyone give me the pros v cons for each? I have all three but I feel there might be redundancy so I'm looking to see which one would be better for me to focus on. If anyone want's to volunteer fits for each as well, it would be appreciated.


Fastest: Caracal
Best tank: Drake
Most DPS: Raven

Slowest: Raven
Worst tank: Caracal
Lowest DPS: Caracal
Ionia Leonforte
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-08-28 19:25:33 UTC
Which one is the most versatile? I hear the Drake is good at PvP and PvE.. what's the difference between that and the Raven?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#12 - 2012-08-28 19:46:15 UTC
Ionia Leonforte wrote:
Which one is the most versatile? I hear the Drake is good at PvP and PvE.. what's the difference between that and the Raven?


In PVE:
- The Raven does battleship level damage
- The Raven requires a some slot sacrifices for damage application
- The Raven does fully selectable damage types
- The Raven tanks fine
- The Raven is a battleship, and is therefore kinda slow in missions that have lots of travel time.
- The Raven is a battleship, and sometimes you're blowing through missions so fast that align+warp time is actually important. Yes, really.
- The Drake does BC level damage
- The Drake gets great damage application
- The Drake works best with Kin damage.
- The Drake tanks fine
- The Drake is not that much faster than a Raven

In PVP:
- The Raven does ******* epic damage if you can apply it.
- The Raven has ok range for a close range BS.
- The Raven has a pretty weak tank if you're trying to apply damage. I haven't evaluated ~ASB Everything~ with regards to the Raven.
- The Raven is a battleship and is therefore slow.
- The Raven requires over a year of skill training
- The Drake is a battlecruiser and is fairly quick.
- The Drake has a ******* epic tank consisting of both EHP and mobility
- The Drake has fantastic range
- The Drake requires a couple weeks of skill training.

If you've got the skills for a Raven and you've got a fight where you need ******* epic DEEPS, the Raven isn't such a bad choice. Otherwise, fly a Condor or something.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Denuo Secus
#13 - 2012-08-28 20:11:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Denuo Secus
It's worth the mention, that all 3 ships are subject to change.

Caracal will (needs to) become stronger during cruiser tiericide. That should mean more slots and more resources (grid, CPU, cap). Also I read somewhere cruisers would become faster to distinguish them more from BCs. But I can't remember if it was a dev post or just a rumor.

According to different rumors and the latest CSM notes the Drake or HMs will be changed. Maybe the Drake itself or HMs. One popular rumor: the Drake will lose the resist bonus (and would be in line will all other Caldari t1 missile ships) - in exchange for a ROF + range bonus. IMHO this would make the Drake better for everything except lvl4 missions and WHling. But we'll see what happens.

Regarding the Raven a quote from the CSM notes: "...CCP Ytterbium exclaimed that the Raven needs help, but the fault lies mostly with Cruise Missiles...". Since the Raven is tier2 it should get some more slots as soon as BSs will get tiericided.
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-08-28 20:38:11 UTC
I looked at the Raven, and I really just couldn't bring myself to fly it. Sure the CNR is nice. The SNI is like a bigger Drake (tanky with meh damage).
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#15 - 2012-08-29 07:02:37 UTC
I have a CNR, Drake and bought a Navy Caracal to try 2 days ago.

The Caracal was acceptable up to Lvl 3s, but hasn't really got the slots to make for a confident tank. Gank is OK though. I sold it. I may get a Cruiser again for those missions that require it, but I'd go for a Cerberus or a Tengu for outright DPS.

The Drake is insane. I put a fully passive fit on it (the best fit for a Drake IMHO) and I can tank Lvl 4s without any issues at all. Missions with multiple Battleship NPCs take a while, but it's doable. One point though - You cannot fit 3 BCUs to the Drake and retain the 'massive tank' people talk about. You need at least 3 SPRs in the Lows for a decent passive fit. Still space for one BCU though.

The CNR is beautiful. My favourite ship in the game and I love everything about it. My initial fits were massively overtanked, but I now understand that DPS is a better tank, so have now added a couple of Rigors and a 4th BCU. There is no Lvl 4 this ship can't handle easily. Insane. And beautiful. I love it.

You really can't go wrong with any of those ships, but TBH for Lvl 3s I'd go with the Drake and when you can do Lvl 4s go to the CNR.

I've just bought a Rattlesnake and will be giving it a full passive fit for Lvls 5s, which I hope to be able to do soon.

In the future I hope to raise my Gunnery skills so I can try the Moa, Naga & Rokh.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#16 - 2012-08-29 07:04:11 UTC
Mavnas wrote:
The SNI is like a bigger Drake (tanky with meh damage).


This Sad

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#17 - 2012-08-29 09:11:11 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:
Caracal will (needs to) become stronger during cruiser tiericide. That should mean more slots and more resources (grid, CPU, cap). Also I read somewhere cruisers would become faster to distinguish them more from BCs. But I can't remember if it was a dev post or just a rumor.


The Caracal could also do with an extra Mid.

Quote:
According to different rumors and the latest CSM notes the Drake or HMs will be changed. Maybe the Drake itself or HMs. One popular rumor: the Drake will lose the resist bonus (and would be in line will all other Caldari t1 missile ships) - in exchange for a ROF + range bonus. IMHO this would make the Drake better for everything except lvl4 missions and WHling. But we'll see what happens.


This is a ******** idea and I really hope it doesn't happen. The Drake is fine as it is. The only change I'd make would be to give it 2 more Lows, but I'm dreaming Blink

Quote:
Regarding the Raven a quote from the CSM notes: "...CCP Ytterbium exclaimed that the Raven needs help, but the fault lies mostly with Cruise Missiles...". Since the Raven is tier2 it should get some more slots as soon as BSs will get tiericided.


The Raven or CNR? The Raven is T1 isn't it? What changes could they make to CMs?

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Alara IonStorm
#18 - 2012-08-29 10:23:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
John Ratcliffe wrote:

The Drake is insane. I put a fully passive fit on it (the best fit for a Drake IMHO) and I can tank Lvl 4s without any issues at all. Missions with multiple Battleship NPCs take a while, but it's doable. One point though - You cannot fit 3 BCUs to the Drake and retain the 'massive tank' people talk about. You need at least 3 SPRs in the Lows for a decent passive fit. Still space for one BCU though.

Lol.

You can easily tank Lvl4 Missions with 1 SPR provided your skills are not complete crap.

3 SPR... Big smile
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#19 - 2012-08-29 10:30:55 UTC  |  Edited by: John Ratcliffe
Alara IonStorm wrote:
John Ratcliffe wrote:
You cannot fit 3 BCUs to the Drake and retain the 'massive tank' people talk about. You need at least 3 SPRs in the Lows for a decent passive fit. Still space for one BCU though.

Lol.

You can easily tank Lvl4 Missions with 1 SPR provided your skills are not complete crap.

3 SPR... Big smile


I don't think you could tank Lvl 4s 'easily' with just 1 SPR and I don't think my skills are crap (check them out and tell me otherwise). When you're under max NPC DPS won't things get a little hairy? Having 3 SPRs means my shields tend not to go below 75%, which is very nice for me! Blink

I get the impression you feel I'm over tanked? I'll try swapping two of the SPRs for BCUs tonight and run a couple of Lvl 4s to see how it goes.

And if you think 3 SPRs is a lot, you should see my new Passive Lvl 5 Rattlesnake fit - LMAO Cool

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Aaewen Hrothgarson
eXtreme Co
SLYCE Pirates
#20 - 2012-08-29 10:36:40 UTC
You mentioned in your OP that you can fit very few T2 parts, from which I deduct your fitting and support skills leave a lot to be wished for.

Since you already opened all Caldari T1 subcap shiptypes, I suggest you spend some time improving fitting and (missle) support skills. Do not forget weapon upgrades (and afterwards advanced weapon upgrades) which are in gunnery.

Most posts here about how easy everything is include a "small print" about skills. Rest assured it is always an understatement on the importance of support skills ...
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