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Of Squid and Peacocks or The Differences between State and Federation

Author
Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-08-28 07:18:12 UTC
Well someone recommended I start a thread for talking about the differences between the Caldari State and the Gallente Federation, and I think that's a dandy idea. So let's have at it folks, share with us what you think are some of the key differences between the colorblind Caldari and the bombastic Gallente (or the Intaki, Jin-Mei, and Achurians for that matter).
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#2 - 2012-08-28 07:22:11 UTC
Caldari are collectivist. Gallente are individualistic.

Caldari make good habitat domes. Gallente make good action movies.

The Caldari have a pathological fear of symmetry. The Gallente have a pathological fear of good taste.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Shaalira D'arc
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-08-28 07:28:40 UTC
Many IGS threads are thinly-veiled invitations for jingoism and stereotyping.

You've dispensed with the veil.
Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-08-28 07:58:42 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
Caldari make good habitat domes. Gallente make good action movies.


Right, stations.. let us compare.

Caldari vs Gallente

Funny I don't even see any domes on the Caldari station, just a bunch of souless grey flat planes and sharp edges on a drab and uninspiring space dwelling. The Gallente station on the other hand has domes indeed, not to mention attractive rounded structures aesthetically pleasing to the eye and a noticeably larger amount of windows, perhaps implying a more prosperous population.

Makkal Hanaya wrote:
The Caldari have a pathological fear of symmetry. The Gallente have a pathological fear of good taste.


No arguments about the Caldari's Symmetrophobia, agreement on that point seems pretty universal. But when it comes to matters of taste well need I remind you that the Federation is a mecca of tastes. As a nation that celebrates diversity, anything and everything you could hope to taste can be found in Federation space, so if for whatever reason you found something distasteful, perhaps you were just sampling the wrong tastes. Blink

Shaalira D'arc wrote:
Many IGS threads are thinly-veiled invitations for jingoism and stereotyping.

You've dispensed with the veil.


spoilsport P

Seriously though it's all in good fun (I hope) and besides isn't it true that our great Federation encourages open and free discussion on any topic, without taking ourselves too seriously? Smile
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#5 - 2012-08-28 07:59:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Makkal Hanaya
When I go to Federation stations, I hear people listening to loud, angry music I can't understand a word of.

When I go to State stations, I hear people listening to... loud, angry music I can't understand a word of.

Paul Oliver wrote:
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
Caldari make good habitat domes. Gallente make good action movies.


Right, stations.. let us compare.

A space station isn't a habitat dome.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-08-28 08:05:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Paul Oliver
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
When I go to Federation stations, I hear people listening to loud, angry music I can't understand a word of.

When I go to State stations, I hear people listening to... loud, angry music I can't understand a word of.
lol wow I haven't heard "Smells Like Gallenteen Spirit" in years, thank you. Big smile
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#7 - 2012-08-28 09:15:21 UTC
Paul Oliver wrote:
Funny I don't even see any domes on the Caldari station, just a bunch of souless grey flat planes and sharp edges on a drab and uninspiring space dwelling. The Gallente station on the other hand has domes indeed, not to mention attractive rounded structures aesthetically pleasing to the eye and a noticeably larger amount of windows, perhaps implying a more prosperous population.


Windows are a structural weakness. Geth err I mean Caldari don't use them.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-08-28 09:34:08 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Windows are a structural weakness. Geth err I mean Caldari don't use them.
When the proper composite materials are used in the construction of a window or any transparent structure for that matter you might be surprised how much force of impact they can take. No I'm afraid structural issues aside it boils down to simple aesthetics, Gallenteans like a view. Blink
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
Azdan Amith
Doomheim
#9 - 2012-08-28 11:40:21 UTC
Anyone even granting a passing glance to the two people will find a number of differences.

Anyone who looks at history for any length of time will find even more.

Do we really need a discussion about it?

~Archon Azdan Amith,  Order of Light's Retribution

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-08-28 11:41:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
I would begin that a similarity that both the Federation and the State share is the ability to foster and promote talented, intelligent and competent individuals to the very highest levels of political, economic and military leadership. The methods may differ but men such as President Roden or Senator Mentas Blaque are to be respected and admired for their personal qualities just as much as Kuikainen Onita, Haatakan Oiritsuu, or Mens Reppola. It is men such as Roden and Blaque who keep the Federation strong and competitive so I would grant honour and credit to those who are worthy adversaries to the State in foreign and economic affairs.

The fundamental differences arise in the nature of the citizenry. In the Federation, the largest voting bloc is still those described as the, "Ostriches", those Federal citizens who for all the talk of Democracy are so lacking in political awareness that their votes will go to any candidate that appeals to their own supposed desires or those desires promoted by political focus groups. The end result being that it's rather simple to gain political power in the Federation if one realizes, perhaps cynically, that the vast majority of Federal citizens lack any sense beyond their own self-interests and their lack of political nous makes them easily susceptible to the use of mass propaganda and the media apparatus. Democracy then becomes the farcical circus of scripted campaign advertisements, smear campaigns, vitriolic diatribe, jingoistic political sound-bites and party lines all bankrolled by special interest groups and lobbyists who fund their preferred candidates and parties.

Democracy in the Federation works because so long as the elite power structures do not intercede overmuch in the lives of its citizens then they are easily placated with the lies and illusions that their votes do in fact matter and will regurgitate the oft-repeated phrases and deliberate ignorance of its media, its institutions and political propaganda without too much debate since it would require a degree of critical thinking and political awareness that most Federal citizens appear to lack.

The greatest lie the Federation ever told however is that its citizens are truly free and expecting others to believe it so when it is apparent that with extralegal and extrajudicial organizations like the SDII that impugn on civil liberties; the unhealthy relationship between the Federal government and its Military-Industrial complex and financial sector in addition to its exploitative foreign policy with the Republic and the poverty in which many Matari still live in the Federation that this is not the case. One simply has to compare the State with Republic to see what the supposed benefits of a Federal relationship entails: The Caldari State remains strong and independent, a leader in technological innovation, industrial output and productivity that benefits all its citizens whereas the Minmatar Republic has been crippled by Federal loans and debts, corporate exploitation and cultural degradation that by any reasonable standard it may as well be a Federal protectorate or satellite state.

The contrast with a Caldari citizen is that the checks-and-balances that ensure individual rights and freedoms are inherent not in a democratic constitution but are written down in culture, tradition and societal expectations that are far stronger and harder to break than any laws written down on a scrap of paper. If one is not born as a citizen of the State or is unwilling to explore its culture than the only conclusions to be drawn about the concepts of Caldari liberty will be from ignorance and flawed thinking. There is a fundamental social contract that the concept of absolute freedom is anathema for it breeds only the worst kind of existentialism: the kind, where an individual removed from culture, history and tradition becomes selfish, self-interested, decadent, morally weak and a burden to the very society from which they were born into. One either accepts the demands, expectations and duties of society and thus willingly submits to the greater good of society: through their family, through their work and through their State or they should not, and thus not enjoy the benefits or rewards of society.

A Caldari citizen is an individual, but only secondary to their duty and role in the wider framework of the Caldari people and the State. Self-expression and the arts are valued and appreciated for the benefits they bring to the cultural life of the nation and vigorous debate and discussion still occurs at all levels of society - indeed, without it mutual consensus would be an impossibility to realize. The difference perhaps in the State is that discourse is the end product of long periods of thought to ensure that they are able to carry the weight of intelligence and the power of balanced rhetoric and oratory in order to effectively persuade those who are ones peers and equals. Whereas in the Federation the pursuit of debate is relegated in preference to apoplectic opinion pieces, stereotyping, jingoism and creating, "Terrible Posts", in Federal FTL Social media feeds and forums.

There is nothing altogether surprising in seeing Federal citizens who appear to display their own grandiose sense of self-importance and entitlement by expressing in empty words what they lack in sense. It might even be said it must be expected for they cannot help but be the product of Federal society where every Fool is King.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Faelan Maris
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-08-28 15:16:48 UTC
Paul Oliver wrote:
Funny I don't even see any domes on the Caldari station, just a bunch of souless grey flat planes and sharp edges on a drab and uninspiring space dwelling. The Gallente station on the other hand has domes indeed, not to mention attractive rounded structures aesthetically pleasing to the eye and a noticeably larger amount of windows, perhaps implying a more prosperous population.

"Soulless"? Considering that the Federation is the largest culture in the Cluster with no common spirituality, I am pretty sure that you should avoid using that term as if you own it. That is not to say that none of you are spiritual, but if there is any sort of common agreement on metaphysical matters in the Federation then no one else has caught on to it yet.

You do see the soul of the Caldari in our architecture - or as much as we are willing to expose without trust given: closed, inward-facing, utilitarian. The warmth and grace is on the inside, where you have to be invited in to get to appreciate it.

Your inference as to how to judge prosperity is also... interesting. Do Gallente usually equate windows with prosperity? Do you aspire to live in glass housing?
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#12 - 2012-08-28 15:42:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
Paul Oliver wrote:

Funny I don't even see any domes on the Caldari station, just a bunch of souless grey flat planes and sharp edges on a drab and uninspiring space dwelling.


Try looking harder. Even the example station you gave has one.

Katrina Oniseki

Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#13 - 2012-08-28 15:46:13 UTC
Yes, looks like a dome to me.
Faelan Maris
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-08-28 16:16:00 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:

There goes any credibility to my statement. I rather liked it, too.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#15 - 2012-08-28 16:22:16 UTC
I'm hesitant to post here, as I doubt you make your inquiry in good faith. But I will buy your stock for the moment. I'm poorly equipped to make statements on my own people, being somewhat isolated by my condition, and am even less sure on my knowledge of the Gallente. But I'll try.

The core difference between us, as I can see, lies in the way we form social groups. Gallente have a "leaving the nest" phase, and are expected to form their own families, social networks, and the like. I think that this is what Gallenteans call "Freedom", the ability to form their own social groups one they are no longer in need of parental support. It appears to be expected - I've heard some talk from Gallenteans, and "living in your parents' basement" is considered an insult? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm not entirely sure of the above, but it seems likely. In another thread in the IGS I asked you to better define "liberty" for me, but you assumed that I wasn't arguing in good faith and decided to insult me instead of replying. So, until I can get a better definition, this is what I'm going with.

The Caldari, on the other hand, do not have this. We are born into a social network, rising and falling along with it. We are still able to move, make new friends, get different jobs, etcetera, but when we make new friends and relationships, we carry our network with us. There's no shame in living with your parents. Indeed, most people live with or near their extended families well into adulthood. We find this a far more respectful situation in general, for all involved.

There are good and bad things about either method. I prefer our way - unsurprising, I suppose. I can see the appeal in yours, however. I can certainly understand why neither side seems willing to budge. To someone entrenched in your ways, the idea of not being able to leave to form new networks must seem very alien and wrong. To we, entrenched in our ways, the idea of wanting to leave is downright distasteful. Hopefully, through honest discourse, we can learn more about one another and gain enough perspective to find common ground, and through that, peace.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#16 - 2012-08-28 16:26:55 UTC
Faelan Maris wrote:
Katrina Oniseki wrote:

There goes any credibility to my statement. I rather liked it, too.


It was very apt! I think our architecture can at times leave something to be desired, but I quite like the dome pictured, and find it very Caldari. I can recall one night, standing out on a balcony beneath a similar dome. With the chill in the air and the black starry sky, I could imagine what it must have felt like back on Caldari Prime, standing on a fortress battlement in a wintery night. It was very pretty.
Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-08-28 16:34:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Paul Oliver
Faelan Maris wrote:
"Soulless"? Considering that the Federation is the largest culture in the Cluster with no common spirituality, I am pretty sure that you should avoid using that term as if you own it. That is not to say that none of you are spiritual, but if there is any sort of common agreement on metaphysical matters in the Federation then no one else has caught on to it yet.

You do see the soul of the Caldari in our architecture - or as much as we are willing to expose without trust given: closed, inward-facing, utilitarian. The warmth and grace is on the inside, where you have to be invited in to get to appreciate it.

Your inference as to how to judge prosperity is also... interesting. Do Gallente usually equate windows with prosperity? Do you aspire to live in glass housing?
The Federation is a place of great diversity Faelan Maris, this applies to our variety of spiritual traditions as well. Every spirtual tradition known to humanity can be found somewhere or another within the Federation, and I believe that's a strength worth celebrating.

Oh and when it comes to windows, yea maybe Gallenteans do like to live in glass houses, if only so we can see that much more of the beautiful space we live in.
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#18 - 2012-08-28 16:37:11 UTC
Paul Oliver wrote:
Faelan Maris wrote:
"Soulless"? Considering that the Federation is the largest culture in the Cluster with no common spirituality, I am pretty sure that you should avoid using that term as if you own it. That is not to say that none of you are spiritual, but if there is any sort of common agreement on metaphysical matters in the Federation then no one else has caught on to it yet.

You do see the soul of the Caldari in our architecture - or as much as we are willing to expose without trust given: closed, inward-facing, utilitarian. The warmth and grace is on the inside, where you have to be invited in to get to appreciate it.

Your inference as to how to judge prosperity is also... interesting. Do Gallente usually equate windows with prosperity? Do you aspire to live in glass housing?
The Federation is a place of great diversity Faelan Maris, this applies to our variety of spiritual traditions as well. Any and every spirtual tradition known to humanity can be found somewhere or another within the Federation, and I believe that's a strength worth celebrating.

Oh and when it comes to windows, yea maybe Gallenteans do like to live in glass houses, if only so we can see that much more of the beautiful space we live in.


Comment, please, on the fact that your stupid and idiotic idea is objectively wrong as proven in this thread?
Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#19 - 2012-08-28 16:44:09 UTC
It's a little unfortunate that so far the only Federation members to speak up are Shaalira D'arc and myself. It wasn't really my intention to start a thread of just me being ganged up on by a bunch of shall we say, "butch" looking Caldari women.

Please citizens of the Federation, speak up, if only to educate me on what it really means to be a citizen of the Federation, or would you rather I hear it from a bunch of gray souled Caldari and Imperial zealots? Ugh
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#20 - 2012-08-28 16:45:40 UTC
Oh wow, and an Amarrian gone Nation too... just keeps getting better by the post. Sad
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
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