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Rookie System Page Update

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#121 - 2012-08-28 06:50:07 UTC
Andski wrote:
Pretty sure that if I create a new account, roll an alt, train it into a T1 hauler, fill the hauler up with billions in loot and park it off the Kisogo station, the GMs will laugh at me if I petition whoever comes upon it for "griefing."
…and thus we arrive at the core issue: the newbie protection rules don't protect newbies, but older players who know how to game the system should have no problems finding ways to take advantage of it.

The rule is “don't mess with newbies”. But here you are, claiming that messing with newbies is ok.
If we take the rule seriously, though, then there you are, showing that it protects old players.
Either way, I have no way of telling what the GMs will think.

…and all of it is easily avoidable and easily made very clear without removing any of the GMs' room for discretionary interpretation and decision.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#122 - 2012-08-28 06:59:12 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…and thus we arrive at the core issue: the newbie protection rules don't protect newbies, but older players who know how to game the system should have no problems finding ways to take advantage of it.

The rule is “don't mess with newbies”. But here you are, claiming that messing with newbies is ok.
If we take the rule seriously, though, then there you are, showing that it protects old players.
Either way, I have no way of telling what the GMs will think.

…and all of it is easily avoidable and easily made very clear without removing any of the GMs' room for discretionary interpretation and decision.


How am I saying that messing with newbies is okay? A newbie isn't going to haul billions of ISK of crap in a T1 hauler. That's where the "common sense" part comes in.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#123 - 2012-08-28 07:02:52 UTC
Andski wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…and thus we arrive at the core issue: the newbie protection rules don't protect newbies, but older players who know how to game the system should have no problems finding ways to take advantage of it.

The rule is “don't mess with newbies”. But here you are, claiming that messing with newbies is ok.
If we take the rule seriously, though, then there you are, showing that it protects old players.
Either way, I have no way of telling what the GMs will think.

…and all of it is easily avoidable and easily made very clear without removing any of the GMs' room for discretionary interpretation and decision.


How am I saying that messing with newbies is okay? A newbie isn't going to haul billions of ISK of crap in a T1 hauler. That's where the "common sense" part comes in.

Why not? Newbies can buy PLEX.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#124 - 2012-08-28 07:03:25 UTC
Andski wrote:
How am I saying that messing with newbies is okay?
By giving me a scenario where everything points towards it being a newbie and yet it's ok to kill him.

Quote:
A newbie isn't going to haul billions of ISK of crap in a T1 hauler.
Sure they are if you ask them to. How will they know the value of their cargo, being new and all? Newbies do the silliest things — it's what makes them newbies and why they need protection.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#125 - 2012-08-28 07:24:56 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Sure they are if you ask them to. How will they know the value of their cargo, being new and all? Newbies do the silliest things — it's what makes them newbies and why they need protection.


Okay, how is a newbie going to find himself hauling billions in cargo? A courier contract whose collateral they cannot afford?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#126 - 2012-08-28 07:29:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
Andski wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Sure they are if you ask them to. How will they know the value of their cargo, being new and all? Newbies do the silliest things — it's what makes them newbies and why they need protection.


Okay, how is a newbie going to find himself hauling billions in cargo? A courier contract whose collateral they cannot afford?


In Tippie's world, players just hand newbies billions and ask them to cart it around for them. Happens all the time.

Mr Epeen Cool
Fiachra Shine
Pariah Army
#127 - 2012-08-28 08:06:53 UTC
I'm pretty new to eve, but it occurs to me that a geography only rule with a list of what qualifies as noob systems could be used by risk-averse players to mine with impunity.

Am I wrong?
Pipa Porto
#128 - 2012-08-28 09:02:59 UTC
Andski wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Actually, that's exactly what they're doing.


Pretty sure that if I create a new account, roll an alt, train it into a T1 hauler, fill the hauler up with billions in loot and park it off the Kisogo station, the GMs will laugh at me if I petition whoever comes upon it for "griefing."

But hey let's just keep tilting at nonexistent umbrella protection policies that vaguely look like windmills~


Look at that from the point of view of the ganker (who wants to follow the rules).

"It is against the rules to blow up a newbie"
"That ship belongs to someone who might be a newbie, but I can't tell"
"Therefore, I cannot blow up that ship, because I can't tell if blowing it up is legal"

If we have the ganker (who doesn't care so much),

"It is against the rules to blow up a newbie"
"I can't tell if that ship belongs to a newbie, so I'll blow it up"
Legit Newbie: "[Bad Experience Gained]"
Legit Newbie: "Has no idea that the rules ban blowing him up > quits"


A clear cut, geographical rule allows for easy (possibly even semi-automated) enforcement that doesn't require the newbie to know enough to petition the loss. It also allows the ganker who wants to follow the rules an easy way to figure out if he is following them. And finally, the ganker who doesn't care about the rules will end up getting banned far more often, making his life more painful until he quits.

BTW: The 50 Plex Hauler is the Heap in our little version of Sorities paradox. If you want a rule whose effectiveness hinges on the definition of a Newbie, you have to figure out how players can draw the line. Punishing people for breaking rules that they can't know they are breaking ahead of time is silly, if your goal is to prevent that activity.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#129 - 2012-08-28 09:05:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Andski wrote:
Okay, how is a newbie going to find himself hauling billions in cargo?
Since he's a newbie and therefore under the protection of the newbie rules, one of those nasty ebil scamming nullsec players you hear things about on the forums will give him a test run as an entry exam to join their awesome mega-alliance… for real!

Or, even simpler, as someone pointed out: PLEX.

Fiachra Shine wrote:
I'm pretty new to eve, but it occurs to me that a geography only rule with a list of what qualifies as noob systems could be used by risk-averse players to mine with impunity.
…for about an hour after DT and then it'd be all gone. If it's actually a problem (it's never was when the rules worked that way before) then the belts could be reduced even further or even completely removed and the newbies could get their mining experience from the tutorials.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#130 - 2012-08-28 10:53:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Dear Drop, since you are master of griefing, could you tell us and especially CCP what those rules should be so that those rules can't be exploited. Thank you.

And I don't mean "I think..." stuff. I mean exact rules.
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#131 - 2012-08-28 12:58:07 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Rules that mean you'll eventually end up blacklisted from TQ, on the other hand, provide protection. Oh, and the unlike the automated game mechanic, the rules don't actually punish anyone.


Wait... what?

Ok, so being banned isn't punishment and having someone blown up after you provides protection from being blown up?

Oh wait, you're about to make the clever point that the rules don't actually do anything, it's the GMs who do.

Wow. No wonder you have problems figuring out who's a noob.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#132 - 2012-08-28 15:42:23 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Andski wrote:
Okay, how is a newbie going to find himself hauling billions in cargo?
Since he's a newbie and therefore under the protection of the newbie rules, one of those nasty ebil scamming nullsec players you hear things about on the forums will give him a test run as an entry exam to join their awesome mega-alliance… for real!


I see you're hopping on the Ruby train. Do you honestly believe yourself when you poot out these bizarre scenarios to bolster your flawed proposals?


Mr Epeen Cool
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#133 - 2012-08-28 17:12:34 UTC
Malphilos wrote:
Wait... what?

Ok, so being banned isn't punishment and having someone blown up after you provides protection from being blown up?
The threat of a ban — i.e. the rules — provide protection, yes. The GMs certainly don't.

Mr Epeen wrote:
I see you're hopping on the Ruby train. Do you honestly believe yourself when you poot out these bizarre scenarios to bolster your flawed proposals?
Since you can't come up with a single counter-argument, yes. They most certainly do. Your inability to respond and to show even the slightest hint of a flaw in the proposal only bolsters it further.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#134 - 2012-08-28 17:25:01 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Mr Epeen wrote:
I see you're hopping on the Ruby train. Do you honestly believe yourself when you poot out these bizarre scenarios to bolster your flawed proposals?
Since you can't come up with a single counter-argument, yes. They most certainly do. Your inability to respond and to show even the slightest hint of a flaw in the proposal only bolsters it further.


Usually I can interpret what you say, but not this time. Nothing in that response even makes sense. How can I make a reasonable counter when you spew nonsense?

Mr Epeen Cool
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#135 - 2012-08-28 17:29:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mr Epeen wrote:
Usually I can interpret what you say, but not this time.
Learn to read. Fire your handler and get a new one, the one you have now is incompetent.

Until s/he arrives, maybe you could think up some kind of argument against an improvement of the newbie protection rules and for a continuation of a rule set that provides weak and unclear protection for new players and plenty of room for exploits for old players. For a bonus gold star, try not to be blatant about why that latter part is a good thing to keep…

If not, I can only thank you for your continuing support in showing that the proposal is pretty much flawless; that there are no real arguments against it; and that it should be instituted ASAP.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#136 - 2012-08-28 17:43:47 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Usually I can interpret what you say, but not this time.
Learn to read. Fire your handler and get a new one, the one you have now is incompetent.

Until s/he arrives, maybe you could think up some kind of argument against an improvement of the newbie protection rules and for a continuation of a rule set that provides weak and unclear protection for new players and plenty of room for exploits for old players. For a bonus gold star, try not to be blatant about why that latter part is a good thing to keep…

If not, I can only thank you for your continuing support in showing that the proposal is pretty much flawless; that there are no real arguments against it; and that it should be instituted ASAP.



So we're at the stage where you start answering questions that were never asked and have nothing to do with the specifics of the post you are quoting. Been there and done that too many times with you Tipps. I'll just bow out now and leave you and Ruby to keep jacking each other off.

Mr Epeen Cool
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#137 - 2012-08-28 17:48:08 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
So we're at the stage where you start answering questions that were never asked
No. We're still at the stage where you can't come up with any kind of counter-arguments and are unable to demonstrate any flaws in the proposal and where I'm trying to make you produce something… anything close to it to show that you're not just making meaningless noise.

We're always there because you never manage those critical points.

Here's the answer key for your reading test: it was not an answer to a question. It was three proposals and an expression of gratitude for your support. You scored 0/4.
Jim Era
#138 - 2012-08-28 17:50:08 UTC
end yourself

Wat™
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#139 - 2012-08-28 18:11:24 UTC
First you say: "I don't want old players to exploit it". After that you say you want rules made by you so you can exploit them.
Fiachra Shine
Pariah Army
#140 - 2012-08-28 18:29:10 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Andski wrote:
[quote=Fiachra Shine]I'm pretty new to eve, but it occurs to me that a geography only rule with a list of what qualifies as noob systems could be used by risk-averse players to mine with impunity.
…for about an hour after DT and then it'd be all gone. If it's actually a problem (it's never was when the rules worked that way before) then the belts could be reduced even further or even completely removed and the newbies could get their mining experience from the tutorials.


Are we talking about just starter systems here? If so then you're saying a noob can be safe as long as he/she stays put in one system. Not much of a "New player experience", imho. Isn't ccp trying to expand that experience?

I've not done the SoE arc, so maybe you're saying all of the systems involved in it would provide about an hour's worth of mining combined? Well, if you tell me that I have no reason to disbelieve you. I'd like confirmation from a second source though.