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Webs and Jammers a thought
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non judgement
Without Fear
Flying Burning Ships Alliance
#21 - 2012-08-27 03:11:10 UTC  |  Edited by: non judgement
Garreth Vlox wrote:
Conrad Makbure wrote:
Webs should be nerfed to the ground, some ships would need rebalancing, a little, but it'd be worth it in the end.


They have been nerfed they use to slow you 90% now they start around 60%.


The Vindicator and Vigilant have a bonus to web strength. That'd be a bit pointless if they were all 90%.


To OP:
Bhaalgorn and Hyena have a bonus to the web distance. Which isn't that good unless you have a disruptor on them. I would guess that fair number of people get away when you just web them without a point.

If you get close enough to someone that they can scram and web you then I hope you are doing enough damage to come out the winner. If not then the odds are that you did something silly to get yourself in that position. Just don't engage someone if the odds are against you winning. In most cases, you get caught because you did something risky and have bad luck.

You ideas are just making it easier for people to get away. Some people would say its hard enough to get fights that giving people more of a chance to get away would just make it harder to get kills.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#22 - 2012-08-27 03:17:39 UTC
non judgement wrote:
Garreth Vlox wrote:
Conrad Makbure wrote:
Webs should be nerfed to the ground, some ships would need rebalancing, a little, but it'd be worth it in the end.


They have been nerfed they use to slow you 90% now they start around 60%.


The Vindicator and Vigilant have a bonus to web strength. That'd be a bit pointless if they were all 90%.


To OP:
Bhaalgorn and Hyena have a bonus to the web distance. Which isn't that good unless you have a disruptor on them. I would guess that fair number of people get away when you just web them without a point.


Bubbles, bro. Long webs are fantastic in nullsec, Huginns are king.
non judgement
Without Fear
Flying Burning Ships Alliance
#23 - 2012-08-27 04:14:01 UTC  |  Edited by: non judgement
Akirei Scytale wrote:
non judgement wrote:
Garreth Vlox wrote:
Conrad Makbure wrote:
Webs should be nerfed to the ground, some ships would need rebalancing, a little, but it'd be worth it in the end.


They have been nerfed they use to slow you 90% now they start around 60%.


The Vindicator and Vigilant have a bonus to web strength. That'd be a bit pointless if they were all 90%.


To OP:
Bhaalgorn and Hyena have a bonus to the web distance. Which isn't that good unless you have a disruptor on them. I would guess that fair number of people get away when you just web them without a point.


Bubbles, bro. Long webs are fantastic in nullsec, Huginns are king.

Oh yeah, I should have said bubble as well when I said disruptor. Fair point.

Ahh, the Huginn. I knew there was other ships which had that bonus, couldn't remember.
Nylith Empyreal
Sutar Rein
#24 - 2012-08-27 04:27:09 UTC
why not just combine webs / scrams :3

Who's the more foolish the fool or the fool who replies to him?
Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2012-08-27 04:50:26 UTC
Nylith Empyreal wrote:
why not just combine webs / scrams :3


Doing that is the same as adding a mid slot to every pvp boat out there, OP would be an understatement.

The LULZ Boat.
Nylith Empyreal
Sutar Rein
#26 - 2012-08-27 05:06:06 UTC
But would they not all be op then?

Who's the more foolish the fool or the fool who replies to him?
Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-08-27 05:13:31 UTC
Nylith Empyreal wrote:
But would they not all be op then?


No just shield boats who then have even more of a tank advantage over armor boats.

The LULZ Boat.
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#28 - 2012-08-27 06:01:23 UTC
Shorter optimal range and add fall off. Same mechanic as guns with a % chance to hit ( 100% in optimal down to 50% in optimal+ falloff down to 0 at double falloff) and then an ECM style timer which is visible as well which gives you a % of max cycle time based on another dice roll of tackle effectiveness or quality ( wrecking, excellent, hit, miss style) or better yet more die points than just the standard gunnery hit notifications.

This means that range is a factor not just get in point range and you have them if you get the lock due to the fall off mechanic. It also changes all engagement ranges to unknown. Sure your 40 kms away, yup you MIGHT get that hit at that range but will it be enough? Will it last? Kiting will have its ups and now a down. Kiting would effectively put you into fall off range of your points and webs which means your target could escape. Brawlers would be given an advantage, suicide/hero tackles in close would still be necessary in some cases. Armor brawlers would now have a significant advantage compared to shield buffer kiting fleets and would change the engagement profiles as well as giving ships the ability to egress under the right conditions. Multiple points would still give greater coverage and might be necessary given certain fleet doctrines or PvP engagements currently.

Itd throw a monkey wrench into the entire PvP game imo.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#29 - 2012-08-27 09:02:21 UTC
Wrong. I've been flying under some FC's I met in Minmatar Militia the past few nights. Pretty cool crowd. Anyways, I've been mostly flying Jags in their fleets, as either fast tackle or as part of a frig roam one night. I actually haven't lost a single frig in the fleet fights we've been in so far.

During a fleet fight a few nights back I got scrammed by an Arazu in my jag, and had 25 drones on me. I lived, although I barely made it out at 70% structure, got repped up by logi, then returned to the fight to continue operating as fast tackle.

The next night, we did a null roam and managed to slip in, kill a few, and get out. It didn't go as smoothly, but we pulled it off.

Then that SAME NIGHT on my way back to Rens in my jag, some idiot from Heretic Uni started to irk me, flying a MWD rifter. I dropped off my loot from that op, switched out of my Jag into a firetail, and proceeded to stalk him through lowsec for a while. I found him with 2 friends in a merlin and a vigil. I warped into the plex they were in to find them all at 0. I burned out, taking some damage. I got webbed and scrammed, but I'd overheated my MWD on landing, so my momentum carried me out, at which point I reactivated and kept going.

We played cat and mouse for a bit, before he got a bit too ballsy in his rifter and moved about 70km away from his pals to bait me. I overheated, burned right on top of him. Webbed him, scrammed him, killed him, and warped out right as his buds came within 24km. My MWD was completely burned out, but I got the kill and escaped.


My point is that you're doing it wrong. Yes, in large fleet fights if you get primaried by like 400 people you're going to die. But that's to be expected. In smaller engagements, and in fact MOST pvp, speed is by far one of the most important attributes on your ship. If you can't escape then perhaps you're flying poorly?

Here's some free advice. Try flying solo for a while and you'll learn how to engage larger groups, get kills, and escape. And that's a skill that helps in fleet engagements too.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#30 - 2012-08-27 09:05:01 UTC
And more to the point, your suggestion sucks. You're buffing skirmish fits because they can't be shut down, and vastly increasing the value of speed because you're removing the ability to counter it. Nano fleets are already some of the best around. This just throws the balance more out of whack.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Aruken Marr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-08-27 09:50:32 UTC
I find it odd that OP claims to be suggesting a change to increase the effect of real player skill but actilually just suggests introducing in game skills and chancr based mechanic. Wheres the skill in random?
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#32 - 2012-08-27 13:47:38 UTC
tl;dr: OP has no idea how to apply any manual piloting skills, so let's add more dice rolling instead.

I'm gonna vote no. Thanks for playing.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Aurelius Valentius
Valentius Corporation
Valentius Corporation Alliance
#33 - 2012-08-27 17:15:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Aurelius Valentius
if you didn't read it and then commented your called a troll, if you read it and commented something constructive even if in dissagreement that is called a post... the first is like leaving ther toilet unflushed (thanks for stopping by) and the second is like planting some roses, with fertilizer, it might not be what I want to smell but it's at least constructive...

Now on the idea AGAIN...

This is not based on current ships, but on the LINES that tier-acide is supposed to produce... eg, the Myr for instance is going to be one of these "flanking ships" that comes in and does "hit-and-runs" on the enemy... ok, so how do you do a hit-and-run, when you get into range to hit and your scrammed and webbed... *Cought*... the smart-ass answer is: dude, learn to play man... or Bro, you like fly your ship dude, like there are options... your not into pvp, you can't play it right... duh!... and other ass-hattery.

The though wast this:

Range, not connected with chance because if it was it would favor short-ranged ships over ships that have to fight in fall-off, so a percent to increase of success with range = fail... so it should be simply a skill affected bonus... and the same chance at any range for a loss of effect for a cycle.

You could give a skill bases range bonus I suppose but that doesn't do much imho for the idea of takle as ships that do it are fast enough to get into range w/o needing to buff the range unless it's a major buff from the ship itself in which it's redundant really in terms of mechanics.

What I am saying is something like this...

Player A, closes in on Player B... who decides to try to run... A is faster and gets into range and hits B with a Scram and a Web, killing B's MWD and slowing him down - effective tackle... B then has to try to "distance" or kill (if he can) A to get away or he's locked for the duration... but wait, the second cycle of the scram misses...and B hits his MWD, which is slowed by the web but is just enough to toss him out of range of the scram... he makes a hard press to get out of range with a 180 kick over and floors it with hope that A's vector will throw him out the other way before he can align again and get a solid tackle again... B hits over-heat and prays... A see's his target speed up and reverse on him... and quickly hits over heat on his Scram and Web to see if he can grab B back while making the turn to pursue... and so on...

This sounds more fun than... A closes, scrams and webs B, hits "orbit" and then B dies.... oh the excitment, the skill, etc...
Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2012-08-27 18:51:26 UTC
Aurelius Valentius wrote:
if you didn't read it and then commented your called a troll, if you read it and commented something constructive even if in dissagreement that is called a post... the first is like leaving ther toilet unflushed (thanks for stopping by) and the second is like planting some roses, with fertilizer, it might not be what I want to smell but it's at least constructive...

Now on the idea AGAIN...

This is not based on current ships, but on the LINES that tier-acide is supposed to produce... eg, the Myr for instance is going to be one of these "flanking ships" that comes in and does "hit-and-runs" on the enemy... ok, so how do you do a hit-and-run, when you get into range to hit and your scrammed and webbed... *Cought*... the smart-ass answer is: dude, learn to play man... or Bro, you like fly your ship dude, like there are options... your not into pvp, you can't play it right... duh!... and other ass-hattery.

The though wast this:

Range, not connected with chance because if it was it would favor short-ranged ships over ships that have to fight in fall-off, so a percent to increase of success with range = fail... so it should be simply a skill affected bonus... and the same chance at any range for a loss of effect for a cycle.

You could give a skill bases range bonus I suppose but that doesn't do much imho for the idea of takle as ships that do it are fast enough to get into range w/o needing to buff the range unless it's a major buff from the ship itself in which it's redundant really in terms of mechanics.

What I am saying is something like this...

Player A, closes in on Player B... who decides to try to run... A is faster and gets into range and hits B with a Scram and a Web, killing B's MWD and slowing him down - effective tackle... B then has to try to "distance" or kill (if he can) A to get away or he's locked for the duration... but wait, the second cycle of the scram misses...and B hits his MWD, which is slowed by the web but is just enough to toss him out of range of the scram... he makes a hard press to get out of range with a 180 kick over and floors it with hope that A's vector will throw him out the other way before he can align again and get a solid tackle again... B hits over-heat and prays... A see's his target speed up and reverse on him... and quickly hits over heat on his Scram and Web to see if he can grab B back while making the turn to pursue... and so on...

This sounds more fun than... A closes, scrams and webs B, hits "orbit" and then B dies.... oh the excitment, the skill, etc...


And what everyone else more or less has said is that we have ECM based on dice roll already we do not need to change a perfectly good mechanic because YOU don't know how to manually pilot a ship worth a damn. Go learn to play and stop asking CCP to nerf what you can't figure out.

The LULZ Boat.
Metal Icarus
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#35 - 2012-08-27 19:12:05 UTC
Aurelius Valentius wrote:
Bare with me on this one... WAIT WAIT... edit: apparenlty I am CRYING HERE OVER MY AF... yep... OMG, OH woes to me, *he beats his chest, he took the body of his fallen AF and drags it around the camp fire... sobbing and wailing... CURSES to the GODS!!!... THE RAGE OF AV is likened to that of Achilles!!!!.... *cough cough*.... THE MECHANICS... THE ISKIES... THE AF... OH THE KM... *FIST TOWARDS HEAVEN*... I WILL HAVE MY VENGENCE!!!... YAAAAARRRRRRR!!!...

ok anyway... som people posting in response apparently though I was crying... whaaaa... - nope, sorry your just faily stupid... here are some marbles to put up your nose if you read this as "crying".

I was just re-reading the blog on Ship Rebalancing and the section on "fast attack ships" being like cavalry, and thought - fail, web/scram.... fail, doesn't work in eve, you can't make a fast flank attack, there is no flank and there is no fast - just close, web, blob... or snipe/kite... the cavarly in EVE meets fly paper ever time.

So... what is the main thing that makes EVE's combat non-fluid... well it's the simple "tackle" web/jammer combo... it dictates all combat, regardless... if you are unable to deal with the opponents fit, and you can't run, you simply give up and die. This is why people say most of EVE's combat is pre-determined at the fit level... much like cards, fits trump fits outright, and very little skill can be put to use to deal with it... you might be able to do a few tricks, but mostly it's did you fit to deal with X if yes then WIN, if no then FAIL (KM)... and why fitting is both the art and bain of EVE's mechanics.

This is something I have wondered about for a long time...

Web:
It slows you down by 60% (last I looked or something like that, and they stack) and then it has a range which gets longer with skill.
Jammers:
Locks you from warping, and scram turns off your MWD if you mount one, and range is increased with skill.

ok, seems pretty straight forward - too straight forward in my imho for a game mechanic that is so dominate in PvP of any sort.

What CCP should have done and what they could do is something like this - and it would not unbalance the game, but it would sure make it more intense, more interesting and more important to use skill (real skill) and tactics...

New Web:
Slow Target 10% per level of skill with a base start of 10% - L1 20%, L5 60%
Range: keep it as is
Change to miss per cycle: inverse of above L1 60%, L5 10%

Skills that counter webbing:
Evasive Manuvering +5% per level to evade web, L1 -5% to above for opponent, L5 -25% to opponent
*other skills could apply to make for an interesting net effect, but this is just off the top of my head for the moment.

Jammer, would work in a similar way, with a chance to "miss effecting" for a cycle.

What this would do is allow more fluid movement in battles, it wouldn't give anyone a total lockdown, and players would skill into a new profession of sorts, "tackling would become an art, not a hit F1-win situation"... it would mean that there is more risk to lose a target if your not on the ball, and it would add to specialization if it was taken to a higher level... say something like:

max fit one of each on a ship, webs and scrams don't stack, and in fact cancel out, if two people hit the same target they blow out each others effects (not lock) just the effects... like waves with interference ripples... that would make this whole part of tackling a fire art, that it should be... and the joy of a real skilled KM a trophy.

This would also give unarmed ships or inferior ships (and skilled players) some means to get away... not just be locked down and fired up... some of the best new skills would then be NAV, where you would first learn (as in nature and the military) the fine are of EVASION... then later to kill... and run away to fight another day would be viable, not just a "sigh... LOL right this is EVE, your dead when you undocked in that fit predictible)

This is just a thought so don't get all flames and rage on me if your a "I want to have easy noob kills with a web/scam pop-gun ship"

Another option might simply be to make them like weapons... hit or miss (which is what they sort of are anyway) and you hit a ship it does it for a period of time, then drops, and put the cycle time longer, allow for multiple hits, but then make them not a field but a "knock-out" of that feature - speed or warp for x seconds.

Perhaps something like this - you send in your fast attack tackle, it zoomes in (survives the hit and run) and it fires off a round of jammer/web shots... some miss, some hit... the skills for hitting and dodging it kick in and you see if the target is either slowed or warp offlined, and then things progress, the idea is there is no 100% lock down and it's not perpetual, it's more dynamic, and therefore more dramatic as well - more fun.

Forever gone would be that "get a point on it!!.. got it... ok relaxe it's dead now... primary... It would be KEEP that point, get it, get it... noooo!!... crap. or KEEP IT... YES!!! (boom) to the very end of the fight... and the one that got away could be a reality then.


Because of webfit destroyers and your complete lack of armor resist mods on an active armor tank?

You would have lived if you had resistances.
Garreth Vlox
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-08-27 20:25:17 UTC
Aurelius Valentius wrote:

This is not based on current ships, but on the LINES that tier-acide is supposed to produce... eg, the Myr for instance is going to be one of these "flanking ships" that comes in and does "hit-and-runs" on the enemy... ok, so how do you do a hit-and-run, when you get into range to hit and your scrammed and webbed


Apologies, I missed this in my earlier post. If you are doing hit in runs in a BC first off, why the **** are you in scram range in a boat that can fire twice as far as a scram operates while maintaining a point from that distance? The point of a "Hit-and-RUN" involves being able to run after you hit, if you go into another pilots scram range with out an AB you're not "running" anywhere. Which is why you use a long point and maintain your range while using a prop mod to maintain your distance to target and use your web to keep them out of scram range if they are faster than you. In other words... Learn. To. Play.

The LULZ Boat.
Barrak
The Painted Ones
#37 - 2012-08-30 08:24:05 UTC
I was going to read your thread with interest and then I ran into that wall of crap you posted about crying. I made my eyes bleed.

Curious why you ruined your own thread biting the bait that they dangled in front of you.

*fake edit* I'm not actualy curious, just posting as a hint not to bite again.
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