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To the Amarrian Loyalists: An Open Letter (aka WALL O' TEXT)

Author
Akai Kvaesir
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
#1 - 2012-08-26 23:28:08 UTC
I will begin by admitting my relatively late entrance into the War, as my interest was piqued by the new changes in Inferno. I do not know, or really care, what the War was like before Inferno (as there is no going backwards now, and no point dwelling on what was) but from the moment I enlisted, I noticed two fundamental - and almost oppositional - things:

1.) The utterly insane level of paranoia, distrust, and infighting amongst the whole Militia. Whether coming from bittervets, or nullsec alliances, the fear of "spais" made any attempt at rallying defensive or offensive fleets (not even counting the bitter hatred of the "legions of PVE farmwhores"). Furthermore, any attempt at cooperation - between the FW vets/corps and the nullsec alliances like FWeddit - was impossible not only on the basis of ego, but also on comms. The simple fear of enemy spies lurking in Militia chat created a Catch-22, wherein no one trusted the channel enough to post nor even read it. On one level, this is understandable, as intel gathered could be used very quickly against us; however, knowing spies may be listening only means you must watch what is said PUBLICLY, but does NOT mean communication on a militia-wide basis was useless.

2.) The herculean attempts by some to counter this. Fleets did form, not always quickly, and never with large enough numbers to actually affect change, but they were fun and we had some good fights. Although usually outnumbered by hordes of SFI's, there was attempts to change the war. Yet consistently, alliances and corps like FWeddit and WBR (which, may I add, DID do their part and helped in meaningful ways) almost never joined the general militia fleets, nor cooperated with our fleets in any meaningful way. For example, I remember a night when I was flying recon for a 10-15 man fleet (I think Strayshot was our FC, but I was slightly drunk), and we had been chasing a similar sized Matari fleet around Kourm for a bit, when they finally found a hole in our net and slipped thru to another system (forget which, again, I was drunk). Heedless of the risk, the fleet followed, and found ourselves having a decent brawl on entry at the gate. As it happened, a different Matari fleet was passing through, and joined the fray, and we were outnumbered two to one. As we held the concerted attack at bay, sustaining heavy losses, a FWeddit (again, I might be wrong, remember...drunk) fleet also happened to be insystem, and as they warped to the gate, we were astonished to watch them simply bypass the battle and warp off. Now, we were losing at that point, and as I said, taking quite the beating; yet, had they joined in, the fight would have become a lot more even, and the chance for victory (while not assured) would have been within sight. We never found out why they didn't join, as they never replied to our calls on comms.

Now, these two factors - paranoia and the attempt at reconciliation - are symptoms, I believe, of a greater problem. It is not that FW is somehow "broken" or that our Militia is simply full of mutually exclusive bittervets and nullbears, but that there is no true desire to work together. There is no espirit de corps, to put it simply. Yes, farming happens, and yes, there are problems within the new system (at least problems that we as a collective group have not yet figured out how to surmount and solve); but the most basic reason the Amarrian Militia AS A WHOLE has failed is a lack of individual faith in the collective benefit gained by unified performance.

The paranoia of "spais" and the disparate groups within the Militia, each with their own view of how the War should be fought and how it should be won, feed into this lack of faith. Faith, ironically or not, is the root of our own success, and the cause of our failure. This is rightfully ironic, almost painfully so, that the most faithful of Empires has lost to a mob of ex-slaves, due not to incompetence or weakness, but rather a lack of FAITH; and not faith in a religious sense, but rather faith in our fellow pilots, faith in ourselves.

So I write this open letter to ask you, O mighty forum-jockeys: Why has it come to this? Where is the pride, the joy of unity? We, the most faithful, who would convert the universe, are proven to be utterly faithless by our own former slaves. How have we let ourselves lose our self?

~Akai

PS: This is not an attempt at forum RP, but rather a serious attempt at dialog. Espirit de corps is a real and necessary thing, and the Matari (for all their chest-beating) deserve the win they have achieved, not because they are inherently better or more l33t, but because they have a legitimate espirit de corps. They won, united; not divided and devisive.

Frogblast the Vent Core! When the W'rkncacnter came, Pthia was killed, and Yrro in anger, flung the W'rkncacnter into the sun. The sun burned them, but they swam on its surface.

Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#2 - 2012-08-27 00:12:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Feldman
Ah yes, I remember the time you spoke of quite well, and the strayshot fleet incident you mention is something I remember in the early days of us being in FW, things were very disorganized.

I'd like to finish that though, by pointout that the picture you paint in your post is much different than the one we finished Amarr FW with. Things got much better, and by the end we had general militia fleets up on a regular basis with mixed fweddit and everyone. Even the distrust of spais wasn't really something we cared about and we pretty much accepted anyone as long as you had a working mic and weren't in IC24 for less than a day. The issue is, it doesn't matter how well your ability to rally your militia into an effective fighting force is, under the current mechanics, the truth remains that time spent PVPing isn't time spent plexing.

We attempted to run plexing fleets, but the Amarr militia at the time was primarily players who were new to FW and often PVP. The attrition rate we faced while trying to get people to plex was tremendous. Imagine this, you're a player who is new to FW who has been hearing about the awesome PVP action and are stoked about saving the Amarr only to find out that "winning" the warzone means you orbit butan and this is an activity best done whilst solo while avoiding as much PVP as you can.

As you can imagine, its not long before those players leave FW forever completely disappointed or if they do return its on a farming alt. Meanwhile, the Minmatar militia is filled with old guard players like sasawong who don't mind the grinding and hordes of plexing alts that pickup the slack. Its an unfortunate situation to say the least. I hope the Amarr can come back, but under the current mechanics it will never be on the back of a PVP-based group, especially not one that organizes the militia militarily. Ultimately, I really don't think its possible to motivate or convince players who are new to FW enough to want to plex for a side so far behind in the plexing war.
Akai Kvaesir
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
#3 - 2012-08-27 00:40:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Akai Kvaesir
As I have just returned from Summer vacation, I did not realize things had begun to change, morale-wise, within the Militia; and that makes me quite happy. However, it seems that there has been a mass exodus, not only of the latecoming alliances and whatnot, but also of a lot of the "old guard" corps as well. To say the Amarr Militia is in a tight spot is a gross understatement, but for me, that uphill battle back to even a respectable position simply invigorates me. Yet I feel that, while there are mechanic-related issues (mostly stemming from the boredom-inducing button orbiting) there must be some solution to be had. I'd rather PVP than PVE any day, but as it does not look like any further iterations on FW mechanics are coming soon (at least not soon enough), we must adapt. There must be a viable solution, an actionable strategy available; I do not accept the fact that there could not be. We simply have not found it. While the Matari have unity of action, they also have found a way to balance (or perhaps more accurately, organize and orchestrate) the PVP vs PVE activities. In an ideal world, we could organize all the PVE-oriented "farmers" into a single corp/alliance, and the same for the PVP-oriented "fighters;" yet I do not (much as it would simplify the current dynamic) think such a thing could ever actually happen. So in lieu of such a idealistic solution, what are we to do?

Also, who the hell is left fighting the good fight? Everytime I log on, stuck as I am docked in Kamela (which, by the way, I sadly missed the fight for...), the Militia chat is as dead as can be. I'd prefer ascii art to the silence on Amarr comms, at this point.

~Akai

Frogblast the Vent Core! When the W'rkncacnter came, Pthia was killed, and Yrro in anger, flung the W'rkncacnter into the sun. The sun burned them, but they swam on its surface.

sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#4 - 2012-08-27 01:01:04 UTC
I never did General Militia fleets, because 98% of all General Militia are fu(k!ng idiots that turn up in what they want, not what I need.

Towards the end, We never even cared to fight the minnies at all. Only saw them out of Dessi three or four times in the last month. We're, for the most part not interested in frig fights, hence the call to farm like a b!tch and leave. I think almost everyone did.

I fail too see why anyone pressing "Join Militia" thinks that action alone should grant them a place in any fleet run by anyone else in Militia.

Only thing I wanna see with FW now, is CCP moving all inactive accounts out of the FW Nub corp and into a normal npc corp. Just so we can see a clearer numbers count.

The pvp is mostly dessi's now. Totally worthless for me. Glad to be out of it. Was a lot of fun for a long time, but not for me anymore.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.

Akai Kvaesir
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
#5 - 2012-08-27 01:10:47 UTC
While I agree that the inactive accounts should be purged, I disagree that anyone who has joined the Militia has no right to join a fleet. At it's heart, this belief stems from a view that "pubbies" are worthless, and that there are those who belong and those who do not. What is the point of fighting a faction war, if you refuse the right of other militia fighters to participate? We were all nubs once (some of us still are, we just don't like admitting ignorance or inexperience), and there is no better way to learn than to join a fleet and lose some ships. Exclusion does not help us win.

~Akai

Frogblast the Vent Core! When the W'rkncacnter came, Pthia was killed, and Yrro in anger, flung the W'rkncacnter into the sun. The sun burned them, but they swam on its surface.

Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#6 - 2012-08-27 01:15:30 UTC
Akai Kvaesir wrote:


Also, who the hell is left fighting the good fight? Everytime I log on, stuck as I am docked in Kamela (which, by the way, I sadly missed the fight for...), the Militia chat is as dead as can be. I'd prefer ascii art to the silence on Amarr comms, at this point.

~Akai


The Last Starfighter
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#7 - 2012-08-27 01:23:15 UTC
Akai Kvaesir wrote:
As I have just returned from Summer vacation, I did not realize things had begun to change, morale-wise, within the Militia; and that makes me quite happy. However, it seems that there has been a mass exodus, not only of the latecoming alliances and whatnot, but also of a lot of the "old guard" corps as well. To say the Amarr Militia is in a tight spot is a gross understatement, but for me, that uphill battle back to even a respectable position simply invigorates me. Yet I feel that, while there are mechanic-related issues (mostly stemming from the boredom-inducing button orbiting) there must be some solution to be had. I'd rather PVP than PVE any day, but as it does not look like any further iterations on FW mechanics are coming soon (at least not soon enough), we must adapt. There must be a viable solution, an actionable strategy available; I do not accept the fact that there could not be. We simply have not found it. While the Matari have unity of action, they also have found a way to balance (or perhaps more accurately, organize and orchestrate) the PVP vs PVE activities. In an ideal world, we could organize all the PVE-oriented "farmers" into a single corp/alliance, and the same for the PVP-oriented "fighters;" yet I do not (much as it would simplify the current dynamic) think such a thing could ever actually happen. So in lieu of such a idealistic solution, what are we to do?

Also, who the hell is left fighting the good fight? Everytime I log on, stuck as I am docked in Kamela (which, by the way, I sadly missed the fight for...), the Militia chat is as dead as can be. I'd prefer ascii art to the silence on Amarr comms, at this point.

~Akai


The fact that you'd rather PVP than PVE is the worst attitude you could possibly have if your goals are pushing the warzone back. Regarding the Matari's "balance" of PVP and PVE, a lot of that is where the alt-farmers and people who have joined for their wallet come into play. The non-plex alt Minmatar have the numbers to push back any short term plexing push by the Amarr, such that the race becomes one of which side burns out and gets tired of plexing before the other, unfortunately, even if the Amarr temporarily outlast the Minmatar they have to contend with the Minmatar alt-farming horde which fills in any gaps in activity.

However, there are also other issues once you start pushing back into the Minmatar warzone. Map imbalance starts rearing its ugly head in the form of Metropolis, an entire region of dead end pipes and a single easily camped gate.

I admire your idealist attitude, however, if you truly want to "save the Amarr" your best bet is to farm on Minmatar T5 while you can and make enough ISK that if they change the mechanics enough to change the status quo you'll be in a great position to comeback. In the meantime, enjoy the PVP and learn not to sweat it as you make loads of ISK on an alt.
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#8 - 2012-08-27 01:46:29 UTC
Akai Kvaesir wrote:
While I agree that the inactive accounts should be purged, I disagree that anyone who has joined the Militia has no right to join a fleet. At it's heart, this belief stems from a view that "pubbies" are worthless, and that there are those who belong and those who do not. What is the point of fighting a faction war, if you refuse the right of other militia fighters to participate? We were all nubs once (some of us still are, we just don't like admitting ignorance or inexperience), and there is no better way to learn than to join a fleet and lose some ships. Exclusion does not help us win.

~Akai


You still don't seem to understand the crux of the problem. It doesn't matter how many killmails you help your militia get, the more time you spend in an organized fleet, the less time you're solo orbiting butan. The problem with those general militia fleets is many of those players are new to FW and PVP so splitting them up into smaller plexing units tends end in them dying in a huge fireball with little accomplished. Even groups with a focus on new player FW experience like Fweddit find that people new to FW join to PVP and not to orbit butan.

Unless you're fighting over a staging system, the PVP and PVE mechanics are totally disjointed. "Pubbies" aren't worthless, and many groups realize this, however, motivating a "pubbie" who has little invested in FW to go orbit butan for warzone control for the losing side when they can just go make 16x the amount on the winning side is mostly impossible. For every single idealistic player like you who is willing to join Amarr, a handful of farmers join the MInmatar.

Put in the plainest terms possible, the short term rewards are too non-existant to motivate a large enough group long term to make any change. Meanwhile, the groups that do join Amarr do so for the PVP, not the most helpful in terms of pushing a warzone.
Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#9 - 2012-08-27 02:14:57 UTC
MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.

Akai Kvaesir
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
#10 - 2012-08-27 02:44:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Akai Kvaesir
Pinky Feldman wrote:
Akai Kvaesir wrote:
While I agree that the inactive accounts should be purged, I disagree that anyone who has joined the Militia has no right to join a fleet. At it's heart, this belief stems from a view that "pubbies" are worthless, and that there are those who belong and those who do not. What is the point of fighting a faction war, if you refuse the right of other militia fighters to participate? We were all nubs once (some of us still are, we just don't like admitting ignorance or inexperience), and there is no better way to learn than to join a fleet and lose some ships. Exclusion does not help us win.

~Akai


You still don't seem to understand the crux of the problem. It doesn't matter how many killmails you help your militia get, the more time you spend in an organized fleet, the less time you're solo orbiting butan. The problem with those general militia fleets is many of those players are new to FW and PVP so splitting them up into smaller plexing units tends end in them dying in a huge fireball with little accomplished. Even groups with a focus on new player FW experience like Fweddit find that people new to FW join to PVP and not to orbit butan.

Unless you're fighting over a staging system, the PVP and PVE mechanics are totally disjointed. "Pubbies" aren't worthless, and many groups realize this, however, motivating a "pubbie" who has little invested in FW to go orbit butan for warzone control for the losing side when they can just go make 16x the amount on the winning side is mostly impossible. For every single idealistic player like you who is willing to join Amarr, a handful of farmers join the MInmatar.

Put in the plainest terms possible, the short term rewards are too non-existant to motivate a large enough group long term to make any change. Meanwhile, the groups that do join Amarr do so for the PVP, not the most helpful in terms of pushing a warzone.


I recognize that the war isn't about KM, nor is it truly about PVP, and I seem to have misled you as to what my aims are. While I love the small-scale PVP that FW brings to the table, I understand it's all about the plexing. When I am roaming solo, I run plexes to do passive PVE and basically wait for the PVP to come to me. PVE leads inevitably to PVP, it is only a matter of whether you are willing to engage or simply run away. I think the problem comes from the gunless speedtanked plex runners, unwilling to participate in PVP combined with "elite" PVPers unwilling to get in the trenches and do the dirty (and, I must add, exceedingly boring) PVE work.

Occupancy warfare, while imbalanced in terms of rewards (personally I'd love to see defensive plexing change into a more rewarding activity), is at the heart of how to win. And while many of the new players coming into FW are both new to PVP and perhaps new to EVE in general, the crux for me is the fights that can be found in and around plexes. I don't believe a fleet should solely orbit (as having done that before, the fun wears off faster than new Fox shows get cancelled) yet the location itself lends to a more directed form of PVP. When you have limited ship types, and you choose a tactically appropriate site, you can dictate the battlespace more effectively, and use the PVE of orbiting buttons to lure PVP targets into your sights. Granted, this is a more difficult form of fighting, and requires a certain level of participation between the fighters and the farmers, but if done successfully, both parties end up getting what they want; PVPers get killmails, and PVErs get hassle-free LP.

However, you are entirely correct that the short-term rewards are too miniscule. Since we cannot bet on some large alliance swooping down from null to save our bacon, as it is simply not worth the ISK for them to do so (right now), we must look to our own for help. But, as you have pointed out, the challenges we face are myriad and stem ultimately from the massive imbalance of risk v reward, and as such, will require a massive change in how we as a militia deal with the situation. For those newly inducted, there is little hope of finding true "idealists," and thus the responsibility falls upon those among the old guard who have stuck it out, even in spite of it all.

In the end, however, there is still the matter of where to go from here. Yes, the boredom involved in PVE far outweighs the majority of players desire for "good fights," but there must be a solution that is both tenable, and possible. We just haven't figured it out yet, and that is truly the point I'm trying to make. Things will not change if we all simply "wait it out and farm that sweet Minnie ISK," and we cannot base our strategy on the hope that CCP will swoop in and fix things. This is EVE, and we forge our own destiny, be it ever so hard and unforgiving.

~Akai

PS- I'm space rich as it stands, I don't need that dirty T5 bloodmoney, as tempting as it is...

Frogblast the Vent Core! When the W'rkncacnter came, Pthia was killed, and Yrro in anger, flung the W'rkncacnter into the sun. The sun burned them, but they swam on its surface.

Akai Kvaesir
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
#11 - 2012-08-27 02:49:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Akai Kvaesir
Vordak Kallager wrote:
MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.


Thanks for such a meaningful contribution. Your chest-beating, while understandable, is a little...pathetic. You won. We lost. Can we get back to the discussion of how to fix this situation? I don't think I need to spell out why it would be important to the Minmatar that we Amarrians find some way to get our **** straight. Unless you want CCP to come and fix that ISK faucet y'all got going on. I'm pretty sure they won't let T5 payouts continue if it is only used as an ISK printer, but then again, maybe they will.

~Akai

Frogblast the Vent Core! When the W'rkncacnter came, Pthia was killed, and Yrro in anger, flung the W'rkncacnter into the sun. The sun burned them, but they swam on its surface.

Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#12 - 2012-08-27 02:53:46 UTC
Akai Kvaesir wrote:
Vordak Kallager wrote:
MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.


Thanks for such a meaningful contribution. Your chest-beating, while understandable, is a little...pathetic. You won. We lost. Can we get back to the discussion of how to fix this situation? I don't think I need to spell out why it would be important to the Minmatar that we Amarrians find some way to get out **** straight. Unless you want CCP to come and fix that ISK faucet y'all got going on. I'm pretty sure they won't let T5 payouts continue if it is only used as an ISK printer, but then again, maybe they will.


o7m8o7m8 You seem mad. I have 17 million ISK, can I help?

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.

Akai Kvaesir
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
#13 - 2012-08-27 02:57:39 UTC
Anger and a desire to change the status quo are not one and the same. Am I angry you won? Not really, as we sincerely did not deserve to win. Yet. But am I angered by the apathy and lack of unity? Slightly. Do I want your bloodmoney? Naw, I've got plenty as it stands.

All I want is a serious discussion of how we can move forward. And I sincerely believe it is in the Minmatar's best interests that some solution, however it works out, is found. We can all benefit from a dynamic war, rather than a static one.

~Akai

Frogblast the Vent Core! When the W'rkncacnter came, Pthia was killed, and Yrro in anger, flung the W'rkncacnter into the sun. The sun burned them, but they swam on its surface.

Dan Carter Murray
#14 - 2012-08-27 03:03:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Dan Carter Murray
Akai Kvaesir wrote:
Anger and a desire to change the status quo are not one and the same. Am I angry you won? Not really, as we sincerely did not deserve to win. Yet. But am I angered by the apathy and lack of unity? Slightly. Do I want your bloodmoney? Naw, I've got plenty as it stands.

All I want is a serious discussion of how we can move forward. And I sincerely believe it is in the Minmatar's best interests that some solution, however it works out, is found. We can all benefit from a dynamic war, rather than a static one.

~Akai


You have to remember that minmatars have their brains and balls removed upon joining FW

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com

Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#15 - 2012-08-27 03:07:16 UTC
Dan Carter Murray wrote:
Akai Kvaesir wrote:
Anger and a desire to change the status quo are not one and the same. Am I angry you won? Not really, as we sincerely did not deserve to win. Yet. But am I angered by the apathy and lack of unity? Slightly. Do I want your bloodmoney? Naw, I've got plenty as it stands.

All I want is a serious discussion of how we can move forward. And I sincerely believe it is in the Minmatar's best interests that some solution, however it works out, is found. We can all benefit from a dynamic war, rather than a static one.

~Akai


You have to remember that minmatars have their brains and balls removed upon joining FW


You say that like we have either of those to begin with.

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.

Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#16 - 2012-08-27 03:48:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuehnelt
Akai Kvaesir wrote:
It is not that FW is somehow "broken" ... but that there is no true desire to work together. There is no espirit de corps, to put it simply.


Roll

Suppose you lived your whole life in a desert. You live in a desert, so you - your community - has this constant problem with water. It's hard to find, you have to go long distances to get it, there aren't many spots where it can be found, if you just sat around waiting for something ridiculous like for water to fall from the sky then you'd just die on the spot, and so on.

One day, you come up with a solution! You had a problem, now you have a problem and also your brilliant solution solution to it. Your solution goes like this: we'll just all take turns walking hundreds of miles to where mountains are, and then climb to the top of the mountains, fill ten buckets per person with snow, and then walk back. Once you have a constant rotation of groups doing this, your village will see a constant inflow of water. There! It's done! Your civilization's ancient water problem is over!

But now that you have this solution, you find that there's not much support for it. You tell people about it, and they think it's a lot of work. Some of them point out that, whatever the water situation looks like to 'the village' after this plan is implemented, a whole lot of the village are going to be trekking across the desert and not in the village. Others would rather go on as they are. Others are inspired by your suggestion to develop their own obviously inferior ideas--

So you get frustrated. And you say this: "the reason we can't have water is because you're all just lazy! And disorganized -- by which I mean, too slow to organize behind me! Other people can have water! I've heard of cities where people ride around on boats, they have so much water! Why can't you be hard-working like them?! What's wrong with you?"

...

Actually, genius, the reason we can't ride around on boats on all the water we have is because we live in a ******* desert. Don't confuse the progress towards your solution with the situation itself.

But this is what everyone does with the Amarr: imagine success, then damn Amarr for not living up to their imagination. But thinking like this, it doesn't matter how broken FW ever is. CCP could levy a 20mil/day tax on only Amarr militia and you'd come back with this vision of super hardcore people taking over the entire warzone and paying for everyone's tax with coordinated PI and salvage and blah. Sure, that could happen. But don't be surprised when it doesn't. Me, I figure that when you start assuming up a population of 'super hardcore people' who can win your battles for you, that you should also figure that some portion of them might end up in the opposing faction, especially as it doesn't have a 20mil/day tax...

You're also not going to get a medal for "didn't blame CCP - therefore totally not crying like some people are."

Anyway, meanwhile, if you open the militia window you'll see that it reports system contested status. If you go help out with some of those systems, which aren't all perpetually at 0%, Amarr might get a T5 cashout before the whole thing gets nerfed. And if you'd like to do the only thing you can do as far as 'organizing' goes, you can get some people to plant roots into one of the cash-out systems and make it permanently Amarr. If the system actually isn't nerfed due to the flood of people telling CCP that the system's fine but Amarr are just uniquely lazy and hateful, then getting a T5 cashout at all will encourage some of the farming horde to spend some time accumulating our LP as well. After all, not only do we have better stuff, but we flood the market with less of our stuff.
Akai Kvaesir
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
#17 - 2012-08-27 04:03:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Akai Kvaesir
I'm not looking to be some savior, and I'm certainly not doing this for attention. I'm not a leader, only a brainstormin' thinker that sees a problem and asks difficult questions about it. I simply believe that the answer is not to "wait until CCP fixes it."

There are problems with the system, fundamental problems, but any problem is only a solution waiting to happen. I don't pretend to know the solution, nor do I expect one to come easily, or even successfully. That's why I started this thread. To pose the question to those better qualified. We can hypothesize all we want about how CCP could change FW, but that's not getting us any farther out of the hole that we are in.

Bitter defeatism gets us nowhere. What is needed is adaptation, plain and simple. I doubt the solution will come at the end of this thread, but it may start here, in the brain of someone who reads it, and starts thinking critically.

~Akai

PS - I have gone out and orbited the button, and tried to do my part to take back our space. One solitary pilot will not change this war. I may not be a genius, but that's a different matter entirely.

Frogblast the Vent Core! When the W'rkncacnter came, Pthia was killed, and Yrro in anger, flung the W'rkncacnter into the sun. The sun burned them, but they swam on its surface.

Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#18 - 2012-08-27 04:42:29 UTC
You would need one of two things to happen for an Amarr turnaround. First you would need ALOT more people to join Amarr. To be honest numbers are going in the opposite direction. The alternative would be for ALOT of people to leave the Minmatar militia. Is there a possibility of that in the future? I don't know. If targets get really scarce for them maybe. We'll see what winter brings.
Stalking Mantis
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-08-27 06:34:04 UTC
Now that's a recruit. OP Look forward to hearing from us/me.

As far as general militia. Welcome to the grinder. When i first joined i drudged through about two or three months of being called a spy etc. Best advice?

1-Report accurate intelligence. Incomplete intelligence is bad. But a pilot that is constantly posting accurate brief intellignece gets into the upper fold faster i.e. the good intell channels. Do this often. While you never may see the results of this trust me it saves lives even if people never acknowledge it.

This intell can extend to 'heads up' info if you are in a system with a friendly gang and know of a hostile gang next door

example of bad intelligence: 'Huge WT gang in houla'
example of good intelligence 'wt gang kamela on lamaa gate 35 mix of thrashers/assualt frigs inties''

2-Have ships fitted and ready to go, good rule of thumb are one for every class of plex. This is pretty inclusive. NOT IN AMARR nothing kills a fleet and its commander like hearign the word 'I am in amarr/jita fitting a ship'. While this my not be your problem this is a big sore point for good FC's and fleets to scoff and shy away from general milita.

3-Worse case scenario join agony like I did or a corp like mine and learn to love to fight outnumbered. Sure unlike my corpmates I get ganked 9 out of 10 times But that one time I take out two or three ships fighting lonely me makes it all worth it.

Amarr Liason Officer Extraordinare -->Check Out Amarrian Vengeance/Amarr FW History from 2011 to 2014 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=352629&find=unread

Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#20 - 2012-08-27 07:34:50 UTC
Look, I clearly joined to wrong side - the winning side - because my corp and personal standings were better alignd to Minmatar, which still took a month of grinding stupid hisec missions on all my toons in corp (and booting the ones with + amarr, to boost the corp average), and it arguably would have taken 2 months to join Amarr. But here we are.

Why is Minmatar the wrong side? Well, we have won and dominated the warzone, ISK and PVP (no, really) to such an extent that anyone joining Amarr is either just plain mad, stupid or only really in it for the PVP. Unless you are actually, similar to me, someone who's done the maths and realised you train an amarr plexing alt and get it to orbit butan for ISK.

Seriously, the Amarr are spoilt for choice as to where to orbit butan and make ISK. Hence Nulli joining for a good bit of butan whoring; push the warzone control up, donate LP's, cash out in a blaze of glory and go back to being welped in nullsec. Amarr can orbit butan in Metro 23.5/7 and more or less just watch Redtube and keep the EVE window minimised so as to maximise video-poon and keep your overview viewable so when flashy orange turns up, you just warp off.

Minnie...well, to make money we need to go to Sahtogas, and occasionally Kamela or Auga. Or we run missions. Or pew pew.
Hardly that easy. So I cannot see how a choice of 62 systems for Amarr and 1 for Minmatar is a problem, given Sahtogas is liable to be stacked with Amarr so its hardly amenable to poontoob butan orbiting.

As for the morale of the Amarr - guys, seriously, Minmatar has trashed its game by winning. It is by and large a phyrric victory because there's nowhere to go to really and truly farm ISK, and I cannot comprehend why people waste their time defensive plexing. If Minnie were smart, we'd let Amarr win a dozen systems back. This would have a threefold effect;

1) Amarr would get more of a logistical base, earn a crapton on money while doing it, and build up numbers
2) We could then take the systems back from them. Maybe not so easily without goon supers and support based around market rorts, but hey,
3) More pew pew for those who want pew pew, at all stages of Operation Autofellatio

Right now, the warzone is ossified into a boring stalemate; Minnie vets want a supposed medal for winning FW (yay?) and Amarr want to stop it because...of some reason. I mean, honestly, if you guys are that whipped, let us take Sahtogas and then where are we going to plex for stupid amounts of LP's? You'd actually do more for your cause by letting the idiots have their cookie and realise that victory is phyrric.

Truly, the last week, Minnie chat has been all about pushing, it sounds like a convention of constipation sufferers. So we've got T5 and everyone's cashed out for

Or join the squids like Fweddit and WBR, at lest those guys now how to rort a system, leaving everything vulnerable so they can offensive plex like a bawss, forever, and preventing the Gallente from doing anything except defensive plex. Forever.

And while we are on it:
- put a freaking web tower in every major complex to prevent solo frigs capping them
- open all Majors to covert cynos
-
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