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Non Minmatar T1 cruiser vs. multiple assault frigs
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Denuo Secus
#1 - 2012-08-26 18:55:31 UTC
Hi,

I'm looking for a T1 cruiser which can engage a small blob of assault frigs. I don't fly Minmatar so they don't matter here.

Last thing I tried was a rapid light missile Caracal (one web, faction light missiles, one BCU, one nanofiber). This ship is considered as THE frig smasher per se. but I failed. Initially I fought against a Hawk...later a Vengeance, Enyo + some light frigs and ceptors joined. I was not able to break the Hawk fast enough. So I got blobbed.

What would you say could work better? I consider a Vexor with at least 2 neuts + medium electrons. I know the neuts won't help to break a Hawk...but at least I could gtfo if I'm not fast enough with applying damage.

Idea is to finish every frig fast. Maybe I could enhance my Caracal a bit with rigors, two BCU or dual web. But dual web on a Caracal is a problem since I get a real thin tank that way.

Any hints?
Thanks!
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#2 - 2012-08-26 19:07:28 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:
Idea is to finish every frig fast. Maybe I could enhance my Caracal a bit with rigors, two BCU or dual web. But dual web on a Caracal is a problem since I get a real thin tank that way.


How exactly was your Caracal fitted and rigged, anyway?

Besides the Vexor, other options to consider would be the Arbitrator or maybe the Moa (which, IMHO, suffers from having a 6/4/4 slot layout instead of a 6/5/3 or 5/5/4 layout).

You may want to analyze why exactly you weren't doing enough damage. Were the targets outside the missiles preferred sig/velocity ratio? In that case, rigor rigs might help. If they were inside it, go for damage (bay loading accelerator/calefaction catalyst) rigs and maybe a second BCU.
BobFenner
Black Hole Runners
#3 - 2012-08-26 19:09:42 UTC
Dude, I very much doubt that ANY T1 Cruiser no matter how expensive the fit could take on a bunch of AF's and win.

My advice is don't even try.....
My missus thinks of EvE as 'the other woman'. :)
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#4 - 2012-08-26 19:20:55 UTC
Personally, I'd take Heavy Missiles and use the range to my advantage. I wouldn't bother with a web, I'd take a MWD and kite like my life depended on it. Also, if you're in friendly space, it's nice to have a few little sniper BMs set up.

Oh god.
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#5 - 2012-08-26 19:24:36 UTC
BobFenner wrote:
Dude, I very much doubt that ANY T1 Cruiser no matter how expensive the fit could take on a bunch of AF's and win.


Well, the question is how you define "win". As in "last ship standing", or in in terms of ISK lost, or in psychological terms ("I want to take down at least one of these guys.").
Denuo Secus
#6 - 2012-08-26 19:30:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Denuo Secus
Exploited Engineer wrote:
Denuo Secus wrote:
Idea is to finish every frig fast. Maybe I could enhance my Caracal a bit with rigors, two BCU or dual web. But dual web on a Caracal is a problem since I get a real thin tank that way.


How exactly was your Caracal fitted and rigged, anyway?

Besides the Vexor, other options to consider would be the Arbitrator or maybe the Moa (which, IMHO, suffers from having a 6/4/4 slot layout instead of a 6/5/3 or 5/5/4 layout).

You may want to analyze why exactly you weren't doing enough damage. Were the targets outside the missiles preferred sig/velocity ratio? In that case, rigor rigs might help. If they were inside it, go for damage (bay loading accelerator/calefaction catalyst) rigs and maybe a second BCU.


My fit:

5x Rapid Light Launcher

1x 10MN MWD
2x LSE
1x Web
1x Warp Disruptor II

1x BCU
1x Nanofiber

1x Shield EM Rig
1x Shield Therm Rig
1x Shield Extender Rig

The problem I have with the Caracal: anything what increases my applied damage lowers my tank. Dual web or rigors. A second BCU lowers my speed, which can be considered as tank in some way.

Good point about checking the logs...will do.


BobFenner wrote:
Dude, I very much doubt that ANY T1 Cruiser no matter how expensive the fit could take on a bunch of AF's and win.

My advice is don't even try.....


Could be interesting so see how T1 cruisers will work when they are boosted finally. This should change a lot. But I've no real idea how - for instance - the Caracal would be changed. Maybe more lows...this would help to do more damage.


Riot Girl wrote:
Personally, I'd take Heavy Missiles and use the range to my advantage. I wouldn't bother with a web, I'd take a MWD and kite like my life depended on it. Also, if you're in friendly space, it's nice to have a few little sniper BMs set up.


HMs without web do something between 20 and 40 DPS on a frig. I tried it. Kiting with a Caracal means even lower damage since I'd need at least one nanofiber. Once 2 webs are involved HMs become interesting. But a Caracal with 2 webs has around 10k EHP...and just won't last long enough.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#7 - 2012-08-26 19:37:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
Try replacing some of those shield rigs with Rigor Catalyst rigs. The main problem is that you are trying to use a ship in a way it's not designed to be used so you're already losing a battle with your own ship before you have even started, but like others have said, a Caracal isn't ideal for taking on Assault Ships.

Oh god.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-08-26 20:50:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrett
Small Gun Vexor or Thorax works wonders. I am pretty sure I had a Vexor solo 3 before AFs were buffed. Had a Thorax Solo 2+other frigs after Afs were buffed. The Thorax has more Tank. The Vexor gets a medium neut with an ACR.

ASBs may change this though. Tried to solo 3 T1 frigs/dessie + 2 Hawks after ASB - killed punisher, Coercer and Griffin, didn't get close to killing the first hawk that was ASB fit. But Hawks have good thermal tanks anyway. Edit: This was with Vexor. Might have killed one hawk, but the Griffin had me jammed for a little until my drones auto-aggroed him and popped him.

Last night, I tried to test this again. Outsmarted myself, though. They came into a plex on me, so I figured they would be range fit. I refit my brick Thorax from Neutrons to 75mm rails. Went back and they were Zero on the gate and they were pulse/ac/blaster/rocket short range fit. I had a wolf in 5% structure, but didn't kill any before I died. That was my fault for refitting though. I would have killed at least 2 otherwise.

Smart bombing Vexor would be worth a shot. :)

Edit: caracal works great in groups. It doesn't have the tank for soloing high DPS AFs though. 1600 Steel plate II is the way to go.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Denuo Secus
#9 - 2012-08-26 21:04:48 UTC
Hrett wrote:
Small Gun Vexor or Thorax works wonders. I am pretty sure I had a Vexor solo 3 before AFs were buffed. Had a Thorax Solo 2+other frigs after Afs were buffed. The Thorax has more Tank. The Vexor gets a medium neut with an ACR.

ASBs may change this though. Tried to solo 3 T1 frigs/dessie + 2 Hawks after ASB - killed punisher, Coercer and Griffin, didn't get close to killing the first hawk that was ASB fit. But Hawks have good thermal tanks anyway.

Last night, I tried to test this again. Outsmarted myself, though. They came into a plex on me, so I figured they would be range fit. I refit my brick Thorax from Neutrons to 75mm rails. Went back and they were Zero on the gate and they were pulse/ac/blaster/rocket short range fit. I had a wolf in 5% structure, but didn't kill any before I died. That was my fault for refitting though. I would have killed at least 2 otherwise.

Smart bombing Vexor would be worth a shot. :)



Interesting. The reason why I considered Gallente after my Caracal adventures is damage. Exactly because of ASB fittings. If one thing can break them, it's pure, raw damage imho. Gallente are king here. And since I'm in a cruiser it becomes a short range fight soon anyhow...so no problem with blaster's range. I'll try small guns on a Vexor or Thorax. Thanks for advice.

Hrett wrote:
Edit: caracal works great in groups. It doesn't have the tank for soloing high DPS AFs though. 1600 Steel plate II is the way to go.


Do you mean armor tanking the Caracal is way to go in groups as well...or just for solo? Never considered to fit plates on a Caracal ^^
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#10 - 2012-08-26 21:05:37 UTC
BobFenner wrote:
Dude, I very much doubt that ANY T1 Cruiser no matter how expensive the fit could take on a bunch of AF's and win.

My advice is don't even try.....


Heh, I'm willing to take that bet. ;-)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-08-26 21:10:23 UTC
The same skills of the pilot, both SP-wise and PvP-wise, I'd say you'd be hard pressed to take one on 1v1, let alone 1vblob.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-08-26 21:12:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrett
Vexor fit is
Small neutrons, medium neut
Web, scram, mwd (or can do AB if you know where you are going to fight)
DCU II, EANM II x2, 1600
ACR, Trimark x2

Thorax is:
Small neutrons
Web, scram, mwd (or AB)
1600x2 (yes 2!), EANM II x 2, DCU II

ACRx2, Trimark

Can swap one 1600 for an 800 and drop an ACR for another Trimark. 2 x 1600s werea better tank with RTP. That might change with the new steel plate IIs, but I haven't tried it yet. Might drop a gun on the thorax for a neut, to flavor.

EDIT: and no, Imeant don't use the Caracal, but s 1600 plate one sounds interesting. I'm gonna try it. Twisted

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-08-26 21:18:00 UTC
BobFenner wrote:
Dude, I very much doubt that ANY T1 Cruiser no matter how expensive the fit could take on a bunch of AF's and win.

My advice is don't even try.....


They can, and it is fun. Do try it. Don't get me wrong, you WILL die, but you can win the isk war easily.

And did I mention the fun part?

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#14 - 2012-08-26 21:34:41 UTC
The ships you guys need to be looking at have at least 4 mids: propulsion, web, scram, XL ASB. The Arbitrator is looking pretty good, but I'd put money on a Celestis too.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#15 - 2012-08-26 22:24:49 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
The ships you guys need to be looking at have at least 4 mids: propulsion, web, scram, XL ASB. The Arbitrator is looking pretty good, but I'd put money on a Celestis too.

-Liang
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#16 - 2012-08-26 22:28:46 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
The ships you guys need to be looking at have at least 4 mids: propulsion, web, scram, XL ASB. The Arbitrator is looking pretty good, but I'd put money on a Celestis too.

-Liang




Damn you you post eating forum.

As I was saying.......

Dual rep arbitrator can do the job. Two staggered small neuts, two guns/rocket launcher. 10mn ab( for keeping up with the runners longer). Three AFs is about the limit, unless you can split them up and/or kill a couple fast.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-08-26 22:33:08 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
The ships you guys need to be looking at have at least 4 mids: propulsion, web, scram, XL ASB. The Arbitrator is looking pretty good, but I'd put money on a Celestis too.

-Liang


Yep. Buffer shield Celestes with small guns was good before. ASB will make it interesting.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#18 - 2012-08-26 23:17:25 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
The ships you guys need to be looking at have at least 4 mids: propulsion, web, scram, XL ASB. The Arbitrator is looking pretty good, but I'd put money on a Celestis too.

-Liang




Damn you you post eating forum.

As I was saying.......

Dual rep arbitrator can do the job. Two staggered small neuts, two guns/rocket launcher. 10mn ab( for keeping up with the runners longer). Three AFs is about the limit, unless you can split them up and/or kill a couple fast.


Haha and this, my friends, is the voice of experience. o/\o

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#19 - 2012-08-26 23:43:29 UTC
BobFenner wrote:
Dude, I very much doubt that ANY T1 Cruiser no matter how expensive the fit could take on a bunch of AF's and win.

My advice is don't even try.....



Well his real problem is not the fact he wants to fight Assault frigates with a Caracal that can perfectly take on those in 1vs1 maybe 1vs2.

He's real problem is that he thinks he can take on a whole bunch of them, it's not the same problem at all.

brb
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#20 - 2012-08-26 23:54:38 UTC
Most T1 cruisers will soon be gaining 2-3 slots. FYI. I will start hoarding Moa hulls now in the hopes they get the Merlin makeover. Lol
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