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Introduction to Anarchy
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Jev North
Doomheim
#21 - 2012-08-26 19:37:20 UTC
Capsuleers are in anarchist paradise, and paradise is on f*cking fire. It's glorious, not to mention really convenient for lighting cigars.

Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#22 - 2012-08-26 20:14:43 UTC
Urthel Drengist wrote:


Anarchy believes that humans are the wisest and most capable specie in the whole universe.


And therein lies the problem with this whole argument.

Fear and Loathing in Internet Spaceships
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#23 - 2012-08-26 20:16:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Silas Vitalia
Paul Oliver wrote:
You claim that the State has clarity of this and that 'from top. to. bottom' but it would seem that in reality only a small percentage of the State's citizens gets to experience that sense of clarity while the majority live out their lives as little more than cogs in a machine roboticly serving their corporation until the day they're replaced by a new cog. Perhaps that is a kind of organizing, but not one I would want to be a part of.


Your opinion of the State and how it's citizens "feel" continues to sound uninformed and polluted by Gallente propaganda.

In case you hand't noticed the millions of dead Federation citizens after several wars of independence, and long and continuing wars in recent times... they aren't interested in any of your Federal **** ideas about self expression and freedom of choice, and all of that assorted nonsense.

To the 'average' State citizen that you continue lumping false Gallente ideals upon:

1. There's work to be done. Period. For the greater whole, and the collective benefit of them all.

2. Gallente psycho-babble about individual feelings and job satisfaction are niceties that they don't have the luxury or interest in debating in soft rooms with soft people like yourself. A good Civire would tell you to take that nonsense right back where you came from.

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Evet Morrel
Doomheim
#24 - 2012-08-26 20:44:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Evet Morrel
Paul Oliver wrote:
It seems like many within the Caldari State share this sentiment, it's as if they hate humanity, which just goes to show that one can not expect those that hate their fellow human to govern rationally and in the best interests of the people.

Theres an old Intaki proverb that says, "that which we find disdainful in others must also reside in ourselves, for how else could we see it". For those who feel the need to negatively label and regulate others, maybe it might be beneficial to take a long honest look in a mirror and make peace with those same qualities within yourselves.


If you liked Aria’s essay on the Gallente read her analysis of the Caldari - to understand this hate. It’s shame, their disgust at their vulnerability really, they mask it with rage and the desperate fetish of control, and the cost for them has been very high. Few are as extreme as Kim but their ideology allows them to treat people as objects. This disgust at their own vulnerability, this contempt for their humanity gives them licence to treat people not as ends in themselves but a means to any end the corporate elite wish.

They are very dangerous - they were once a noble people, but then they met the Gallente and for them it was a disaster. They saw the Gallente, the beauty etc. A beauty they had no immunity to, but later they saw us for who we were, perhaps who we are still: an indolent and disinterested bunch of dilettantes, dilettantes who beat the crap out of them, and the rest is history. Our real crime though is having so much more fun than they do while not needing to hurt anyone in the process.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#25 - 2012-08-26 21:06:07 UTC
Evet Morrel wrote:
..who beat the crap out of them and the rest is history.


You seem to be remembering your history different than the rest of the cluster.

Last I recalled they left your Federation...kicked you off their home planet... and are still laughing at you from orbit around Caldari Prime?





Sabik now, Sabik forever
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#26 - 2012-08-26 21:10:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Makkal Hanaya
Paul Oliver wrote:
The ruling elite within the Amarr Empire and Caldari State must keep political power out of the hands of the people at all costs, and for many generations now, they have succeeded quite well, primarily through enslavement and otherwise marginalizing any other nascent movement that is actually attempting to organize the people.

The majority of people in the Empire are neither nobility nor slaves. For enslavement to be the primary means of controlling a population, you can't have a huge swath of common folk.

The primary means of social control in the Empire is religion.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Evet Morrel
Doomheim
#27 - 2012-08-26 21:12:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Evet Morrel
Silas Vitalia wrote:
Evet Morrel wrote:
..who beat the crap out of them and the rest is history.


You seem to be remembering your history different than the rest of the cluster.

Last I recalled they left your Federation...kicked you off their home planet... and are still laughing at you from orbit around Caldari Prime?


You see what I mean, a bit broken - anyway go read it, it's very good.
Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#28 - 2012-08-27 00:29:46 UTC
Evet Morrel wrote:
You see what I mean, a bit broken - anyway go read it, it's very good.
lol yea sometimes it's hard not to see, anyways thank you for the homework, now I just have to find it...
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
Amaki Mai
Doomheim
#29 - 2012-08-27 00:56:51 UTC
Evet Morrel wrote:
They are very dangerous - they were once a noble people, but then they met the Gallente and for them it was a disaster. They saw the Gallente, the beauty, a beauty they had no immunity to, and later they saw us for what we were, perhaps still are: an indolent and disinterested bunch of dilettantes, who beat the crap out of them and the rest is history. Our real crime is having much more fun than them and not needing to hurt anyone in the process.


So let me get this straight. Meeting the Gallente was a horrendous disaster, which led to the Gallente beating the Caldari up AND your real crime is having more fun than them and not needing to hurt anyone in the process?

I am confused.
Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#30 - 2012-08-27 01:09:29 UTC
Amaki Mai wrote:
I am confused.


I'll put it as plain as I'm able, "haters gonna hate". P
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#31 - 2012-08-27 02:23:02 UTC
I was going to post a reply to your dissertation here, Mr. Drengist, but the following "discussions" about my people have left me a little despondent. If you would like to know a little bit about the Caldari, perhaps come live with us for awhile with an open mind.

Humans are humans. We all love, we all fear, we all die. Everything else is seasoning.
Evet Morrel
Doomheim
#32 - 2012-08-27 02:32:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Evet Morrel
That's enough from me I won't derail this thread any further, apologies to the OP.

p.s. There are great Caldari out there, they just have to be careful who they have tea with.
Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#33 - 2012-08-27 03:21:58 UTC
Evet Morrel wrote:
There are great Caldari out there, they just have to be careful who they have tea with.
I'll drink to that.
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#34 - 2012-08-27 16:02:07 UTC
I would like to return attention to Captain Drengist's original topic instead of this descent into the values and faults of our various governments. If you would like to discuss the evils of the Caldari, I suggest that it may be kinder to start your own thread.

Captain Drengist; I hve a question. How does your system account for the human dominance structure? As in, how does it prevent the more ambitious, less scrupulous individual from organizing a group of like-minded peers and enforcing their will upon others?
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#35 - 2012-08-27 17:54:36 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
How does your system account for the human dominance structure? As in, how does it prevent the more ambitious, less scrupulous individual from organizing a group of like-minded peers and enforcing their will upon others?


Liberal placing of heads in sand and ignoring reality.

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Evet Morrel
Doomheim
#36 - 2012-08-27 18:11:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Evet Morrel
-removed
Urthel Drengist
Doomheim
#37 - 2012-08-28 00:25:42 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
I would like to return attention to Captain Drengist's original topic instead of this descent into the values and faults of our various governments. If you would like to discuss the evils of the Caldari, I suggest that it may be kinder to start your own thread.

Captain Drengist; I hve a question. How does your system account for the human dominance structure? As in, how does it prevent the more ambitious, less scrupulous individual from organizing a group of like-minded peers and enforcing their will upon others?



Ms Scherezad,

To answer very briefly; it doesnt prevent them.In fact one can not prevent such a thing as there will be times when people will fall by cunning plans I take it you mean enforcing their will with oppressive means rather than democratic means. As i said it doesnt. What Anarchist system does is to reveal those individuals/groups much faster.

For example even within the Federation you can have lobbies taking a good bit of the power and manipulating that power, because the system is based in such a way that with careful planning one can actually achieve that.

In an Anarchist system however there are two facts which are not giving much room for oppressive individuals or groups to prosper, one is Direct Democracy which ensures that the removal of those individuals can happen very fast should the citizens wish that, and the second is that the Anarchists by default value their Freedom more than anything so a great resistance will be met should such a case happens. You see an Anarchist system is fear free. For example in the Federation and in any other place to actually feel oppressed and take measures against that oppression is considered as a treason( the least) which breeds fear, but in an Anarchist system it is the first and foremost right of a citizen to actually take measures against oppression. The real debate i guess stands on which of the two methods is more acceptable.

Now as i said there can be a situation where an Anarchist society can fall to an oppressive state but that is very unlikely to prosper should the citizens value and fight for their freedom.

I hope that did answer your question? Please let me know if it didnt

Urthel Drengist

C.E.O and Founder of Drengist Intergalactic Liberal Enterprises Ltd. [L.I.D.E.L ] 
Infomorph Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Doomheim
#38 - 2012-08-28 00:47:34 UTC
Pilot Urthel Drengist, I must take exception to your statements.

Your understanding of Anarchism is mediocre at best. Further, you are compounding your obvious errors in logic by expanding on ideas that, honestly, don't need expanded and have only tangential links to "anarchism". Ms Scherezad is running intellectual circles around you (and let me tell you, that is saying quite a lot; her almost single-minded focus on neural networks aside, and no offense intended to the beautiful creature).

If you don't recognize your own situation, that is of course fine. You can't see it under your own nose, let alone how it can be better than what exists now, but that's okay. Hardly anyone else does, and those who see it know how to manipulate that ignorance to their advantage. That's okay as well. You'll see. Someday, very soon, you'll see. Until then:

Enjoy the Anarchy that is a Capsuleer's life.

Because honestly? It's the closest thing you'll get to seeing your dream world brought to life. A pity too, because dreamers like you could truly change the world if they could only see the potential they have.

To be a revolutionary you need to have a revolution; I don't see that happening. Can you prove me wrong?
Paul Oliver
Doomheim
#39 - 2012-08-28 01:28:18 UTC
Urthel Drengist wrote:
In an Anarchist system however there are two facts which are not giving much room for oppressive individuals or groups to prosper, one is Direct Democracy which ensures that the removal of those individuals can happen very fast should the citizens wish that, and the second is that the Anarchists by default value their Freedom more than anything so a great resistance will be met should such a case happens.


It sounds to me like what you're really describing isn't freedom at all but mob rule. You talk about this concept you call "direct democracy" and how it prevents oppressive individuals in a group from prospering, thing is theres another term for such a body of "government", a lynch mob. Secondly you make the claim that Anarchists value their freedom, yet how could one know freedom under such conditions when the moment they say or do something the mob disagrees with they're likely to experience "direct democracy" and be executed?

Nope you can keep your anarchy, for all my raggin on the Caldari atleast they have a deep appreciate for the value of order, something I think you seem to have a very warped concept of. A community in a state of anarchy doesn't remain so for long, either they tear each other apart or someone steps in to restore order, usually by imposing a state of authoritarianism through the wielding of intimidation and deadly force.

Which goes to show just how precious freedom, democracy, and order really are, because when they're lost it can often mean a very long and bloody road back.
Its good to be [Gallente](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1209/QEQlJ.jpg).
Infomorph Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Doomheim
#40 - 2012-08-28 01:50:42 UTC
Paul Oliver wrote:
It sounds to me like what you're really describing isn't freedom at all but mob rule. You talk about this concept you call "direct democracy" and how it prevents oppressive individuals in a group from prospering, thing is theres another term for such a body of "government", a lynch mob. Secondly you make the claim that Anarchists value their freedom, yet how could one know freedom under such conditions when the moment they say or do something the mob disagrees with they're likely to experience "direct democracy" and be executed?

The problem here is that his argument relies wholly on the community acting in the interest of not only protecting their own freedom, but that of the "accused" as well. That's the one thing missing from the argument. There is no way to guarantee this, save for a system that takes human nature out of the equation. A system not unlike CONCORD's "Security Status" metrics, one would imagine.

Further, he does not see this himself, and in turn admits the failings of the system:

Quote:
Now as i said there can be a situation where an Anarchist society can fall to an oppressive state but that is very unlikely to prosper should the citizens value and fight for their freedom.

It's a wonderful ideal; it needs much work. Brighter minds seem to have figured out a system that works fairly well, and despite some missteps, have managed to keep the Capsuleers of New Eden quite well contained. We even fight against undue oppression and exploitation. We form our own social groups, maintained at the whim and desire of those involved.

We are selfish, greedy creatures by nature. It is not a question of "if" someone will attempt to abuse a system, but "when", and how it can be rectified in a timely manner.