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Energy Weapon Balancing
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John Nucleus
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2011-10-13 18:45:40 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
John Nucleus wrote:
First, maybe I should have been more clear about this but I mostly play with frigates and a bit of cruiser, so I don't know what the situation is for the bigger stuff.

Let's face it, you want to have a punisher that has more EHP than most AF fits have even more EHP when fitting Lasers?

No.


No, I want my punisher to have a similar amount of fitting option using laser than if it was using AC. If you think using laser should limit my fitting option compare to using AC it means you think laser are better than AC. I don't think they are, at least not for the small ones, and this is what this thread is about.
Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2011-10-13 21:10:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
John Nucleus wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
John Nucleus wrote:
First, maybe I should have been more clear about this but I mostly play with frigates and a bit of cruiser, so I don't know what the situation is for the bigger stuff.

Let's face it, you want to have a punisher that has more EHP than most AF fits have even more EHP when fitting Lasers?

No.


No, I want my punisher to have a similar amount of fitting option using laser than if it was using AC. If you think using laser should limit my fitting option compare to using AC it means you think laser are better than AC. I don't think they are, at least not for the small ones, and this is what this thread is about.


Well I think what pattern means is that lasers follow a general, maybe a bit outdated, balance approach. With bigger ship classes the tanks become more important, the range becomes more important and the hulls become slower overall. The tank heavy concept of the punisher with only the cap bonus to lasers offer very low benefits for fitting lasers in pvp, quite similar to the maller and prophecy. However if you look at the faction, T2 or up in hull size, you will see a lot more hulls with damage and optimal bonuses actually giving laser fits a kind of edge that makes any kind of off racial gun fittings pointless, plus the fitting required to make use of this benefits.

The navy slicer is probably a good example, offering the ability to fit the biggest guns(even at expense of a good tank), combined with his bonuses makes it a agile and fast kitter with the punch of a close range hull. The other extreme would be the retribution, offering extreme durability with a high range and heavy dps(however 1 med makes it somewhat useless as a frig pvp).

What I want to say is, amarr and lasers are ok overall but bad on many T1 frig and cruiser hulls. If you want to take full advantage of the lower fitting of projectiles go ahead, but you just shoot yourself in the foot if you demand a fitting nerf to acs(the hulls can still make use of the resistance bonus, building up a serious EHP/DPS mix if you use projectiles, that wouldn't be the case if you are down to lasers). A proper reballance(even if it would be required) is probably not really coming anytime soon, since it requires a lot of effort, time and in class changes/role redefining.

Edit: What you see is the plain T1 hull with the cap bonus, giving you the ability to field the more powerful weapon with the damage bonus already build in(what it isn't this much today). What you can do is to make use of the extra tank that makes use of the lower fitting requirements of projectiles allow you to fit. It is not a very good example of good game design, however a example that the overall design is still good enough to give you options to make your hull competitive overall.
John Nucleus
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#23 - 2011-10-13 23:11:53 UTC  |  Edited by: John Nucleus
Jill Antaris wrote:
John Nucleus wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
John Nucleus wrote:
First, maybe I should have been more clear about this but I mostly play with frigates and a bit of cruiser, so I don't know what the situation is for the bigger stuff.

Let's face it, you want to have a punisher that has more EHP than most AF fits have even more EHP when fitting Lasers?

No.


No, I want my punisher to have a similar amount of fitting option using laser than if it was using AC. If you think using laser should limit my fitting option compare to using AC it means you think laser are better than AC. I don't think they are, at least not for the small ones, and this is what this thread is about.


Well I think what pattern means is that lasers follow a general, maybe a bit outdated, balance approach. With bigger ship classes the tanks become more important, the range becomes more important and the hulls become slower overall. The tank heavy concept of the punisher with only the cap bonus to lasers offer very low benefits for fitting lasers in pvp, quite similar to the maller and prophecy. However if you look at the faction, T2 or up in hull size, you will see a lot more hulls with damage and optimal bonuses actually giving laser fits a kind of edge that makes any kind of off racial gun fittings pointless, plus the fitting required to make use of this benefits.

The navy slicer is probably a good example, offering the ability to fit the biggest guns(even at expense of a good tank), combined with his bonuses makes it a agile and fast kitter with the punch of a close range hull. The other extreme would be the retribution, offering extreme durability with a high range and heavy dps(however 1 med makes it somewhat useless as a frig pvp).

What I want to say is, amarr and lasers are ok overall but bad on many T1 frig and cruiser hulls. If you want to take full advantage of the lower fitting of projectiles go ahead, but you just shoot yourself in the foot if you demand a fitting nerf to acs(the hulls can still make use of the resistance bonus, building up a serious EHP/DPS mix if you use projectiles, that wouldn't be the case if you are down to lasers). A proper reballance(even if it would be required) is probably not really coming anytime soon, since it requires a lot of effort, time and in class changes/role redefining.

Edit: What you see is the plain T1 hull with the cap bonus, giving you the ability to field the more powerful weapon with the damage bonus already build in(what it isn't this much today). What you can do is to make use of the extra tank that makes use of the lower fitting requirements of projectiles allow you to fit. It is not a very good example of good game design, however a example that the overall design is still good enough to give you options to make your hull competitive overall.


Let's see if I understand the big picture correctly.

Laser are ok in most case. If they lower their requirements, it will unbalance some ship that were already good at using them. If they increase the powergrid on the punisher instead, it will make the punisher able to tank too much when using AC. And rebalancing all that just to fix the punisher is a lot of work to fix a ship that isn't really broken, just not optimal.

I think we can agree there's a problem in the design of the punisher then. Laser are the perfect weapon system to use on it. The inability of the punisher to dictate range is compensated by the range flexibility of lasers. With its big cap pool and the bonus on laser cap cost, it's clear the punisher was build around the idea of using lasers. But then, in order to use this kickass weapon system you penalize the very thing it's good at, its tanking ability. To funniest part is that in order to maximize its most defining feature, its tank, you need to use the weapon system of its biggest enemy, the Minmatar...

If I'm correct, here's my suggestion to the dev:
Add a bonus to the punisher (and any Amarr frigate that might need it) to lower the requirements of lasers. It feels like an hack, and it is, but it's simplier then fixing the whole thing. And when you get to actually fixing the whole thing, just remove the bonus.
Beckett Firesnake
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2011-10-14 06:17:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Beckett Firesnake
Yes Minmatar ships are simply the best.

Because Auto-canon, and because Speed.
They can chose the range of engagement, they can flle the fight if it is not ok, and they have an heavy fire power that do not need capacitor to shoot.
Even capacitor drained to 0, Autocanon are runing ok.

The poor advantage to not have to reload is useless most of the time.

Amarrian ships are probably very powerful in big engagement of BS but in skirmish fights they are screwed. Slow, ships that do not fire without capacitor.

No need to talk about the fact lasers only make two type of damge....

I fitted a lot of Hurricane and Harbingers with "all sikll at V" in EFT.

The only way to overcome an Hurricane in DPS with an Harbinger (with equal Hitpoints) is to use drones.

Lasers are weak.

The slaves ships are far more powerful than ours now.

May the Empire survive to confrontation.
Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2011-10-14 08:14:43 UTC
John Nucleus wrote:

Let's see if I understand the big picture correctly.

Laser are ok in most case. If they lower their requirements, it will unbalance some ship that were already good at using them. If they increase the powergrid on the punisher instead, it will make the punisher able to tank too much when using AC. And rebalancing all that just to fix the punisher is a lot of work to fix a ship that isn't really broken, just not optimal.

I think we can agree there's a problem in the design of the punisher then. Laser are the perfect weapon system to use on it. The inability of the punisher to dictate range is compensated by the range flexibility of lasers. With its big cap pool and the bonus on laser cap cost, it's clear the punisher was build around the idea of using lasers. But then, in order to use this kickass weapon system you penalize the very thing it's good at, its tanking ability. To funniest part is that in order to maximize its most defining feature, its tank, you need to use the weapon system of its biggest enemy, the Minmatar...


Yes, this is correct.

Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#26 - 2011-10-14 08:52:19 UTC
Jill Antaris wrote:
John Nucleus wrote:

Let's see if I understand the big picture correctly.

Laser are ok in most case. If they lower their requirements, it will unbalance some ship that were already good at using them. If they increase the powergrid on the punisher instead, it will make the punisher able to tank too much when using AC. And rebalancing all that just to fix the punisher is a lot of work to fix a ship that isn't really broken, just not optimal.

I think we can agree there's a problem in the design of the punisher then. Laser are the perfect weapon system to use on it. The inability of the punisher to dictate range is compensated by the range flexibility of lasers. With its big cap pool and the bonus on laser cap cost, it's clear the punisher was build around the idea of using lasers. But then, in order to use this kickass weapon system you penalize the very thing it's good at, its tanking ability. To funniest part is that in order to maximize its most defining feature, its tank, you need to use the weapon system of its biggest enemy, the Minmatar...


Yes, this is correct.


The problem is that I just don't think you realise how much better it is at armour tanking when compared to the alternatives. Your not entitled to fit oversized plates. Nor should you ever consider balancing an entire weapons system around one frig. Yes, a cap reduction bonus is a little pointless when compared with autocannons and maybe it should be a damage bonus, but spend a few hours training another races frigs and weapons systems before you come on here demanding changes to one of the better frigs in the game.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
John Nucleus
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2011-10-14 12:08:16 UTC  |  Edited by: John Nucleus
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Jill Antaris wrote:
John Nucleus wrote:

Let's see if I understand the big picture correctly.

Laser are ok in most case. If they lower their requirements, it will unbalance some ship that were already good at using them. If they increase the powergrid on the punisher instead, it will make the punisher able to tank too much when using AC. And rebalancing all that just to fix the punisher is a lot of work to fix a ship that isn't really broken, just not optimal.

I think we can agree there's a problem in the design of the punisher then. Laser are the perfect weapon system to use on it. The inability of the punisher to dictate range is compensated by the range flexibility of lasers. With its big cap pool and the bonus on laser cap cost, it's clear the punisher was build around the idea of using lasers. But then, in order to use this kickass weapon system you penalize the very thing it's good at, its tanking ability. To funniest part is that in order to maximize its most defining feature, its tank, you need to use the weapon system of its biggest enemy, the Minmatar...


Yes, this is correct.


The problem is that I just don't think you realise how much better it is at armour tanking when compared to the alternatives. Your not entitled to fit oversized plates. Nor should you ever consider balancing an entire weapons system around one frig. Yes, a cap reduction bonus is a little pointless when compared with autocannons and maybe it should be a damage bonus, but spend a few hours training another races frigs and weapons systems before you come on here demanding changes to one of the better frigs in the game.


No offence but you are starting to sound like a broken record. If you read my last post you'll see there's a progression in my view of the situation. I no longer think Laser needs that much balancing, they do but not to the extent I was thinking. I now think the punisher (and probably other amarr frigs) needs some fixing.

Yes, I understand the tankability of the punisher is already great and the fix I propose won't boost it. It will only make its fitting potential similar while using laser or AC.

And I fly rifters too.


Oh, Jill Antaris, I forgot to thank you for your answers, it helped me see the situation more clearly, so thanks.
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