Intergalactic Summit

If this so called "Day of Darkness" and a century of peacable status quo are to be considered valid reasons for war by any person, irrelevant of political affiliation or enlightenment.

If these are valid reasons for war; After a rebellion, after a seize fire, after the Empire Recognized the Minmatar Republic. After agreements and contracts. After one hundred years of the Empire treating the Minmatar Republic as a sovereign state and honouring those treaties.

If after all that, this so called "Day of Darkness" is in anyway a valid reason to violate contracts and agreements, if after all that the Status Quo as affirmed by those contracts is a valid reason for the tribalists to break their word and attack the Amarrian Empire.

Then any person holding that view, will have to concede theTribalists can not ever be expected honor their word, or to hold an agreement with the Amarrian Empire.

Such claims of justification leave the Amarrian Empire quite short on the options to assure the security of the Faithful. Either the coving of matari tribes through threat of arms to keep to themselves, Full enslavement of all tribes or the declaring of the tribes as Forsaken to God and dealing with any future attacks upon the Faith and the Faithful as befits those uneligible to enslavement.

Wise individuals might recognize the value in accepting that the Day of Darkness is no longer, after treaties signed, a valid reason for war. Some might also accept that acceeding to status quo as terms for peace remove that status quo as a valid cause for war. I shall not be supprised to see no wisdom from the tribal heathens, nor the Gallante that are much too often willing to debase themselves to their feelings and wants, in opposition to all morality and reason.

Were the tribes to act as civilized people should and admit that their feelings got the better of them and that they are at fault for breaking their word to the Empire by attacking us in violation to all treaties. the Empire could likely accept an apology and reparations., leading towards a peace where tribes would no longer blame their failings upon others but would seek to improve themselves as befits those claiming sole responcibility for themselves, this 'freedom' they seem to covet so much.

That however would require these heathens to own up to their own respocibilities and failings, to order their own house as the saying goes. It would be what civilized humans would do and as such I will be much supprised of individuals admitting to this, let alone any clan or tribe of matari descent to acknoledge the blatant truth.

And before some gallantean agitator flails in to muddy the waters I would note that I have not mentioned the Caldari in this discussion for reasons that should be clear to any clearly thinking member of the State as well as to my fellow Amarrians.

It's nice to see these facts laid out in such an accessible manner, where any and all in creation can understand them.

Making a Tribal fighter confront these 'uncomfortable truths' has always yeilded....interesting results.

I was watching a pretty interesting holoreel the other night and I remember a scene where a Vherokior grandfather talking to his young grandson tells the boy he has two slaver hounds inside of him struggling with each other. The first is the hound of peace, love and kindness. The other hound is fear, greed and hatred. "Which slaver hound will win, grandfather?" asked the young boy. "Whichever one I feed," was the reply.

There are a lot of undertones here which make it far from 'accessible'. I speak in sincerity when I say that it is a real shame that we have fallen prey to these traps again.



Fascinating. You first assert the decadent nature of the Republic. I have no qualms here - I believe that the Republic is toxic and destined for failure as it stands now. It is harmful to my people but is perpetuated by this war.

Then in the second breath you turn and say 'They need us, to continue hating us, and they need hatred for their lives to have meaning.' This overt implication is simply untrue, biting at best and at worst the type of regurgitated vomit I have come to expect from Amarrians less eloquent than yourself, Tamiroth.

... Mensha. I'm tentative to agree with your words. You raise completely legitimate points and the Republic have supported many terrorist acts against your Empire. However, you betray yourself with the same trite, belittling and sweeping generalizations as Tamiroth, here.

What's more, I disagree with some of the sentiments you exhibit. Our Day of Darkness may be no validation to you and yours, but that is much in the same way that your Reclaiming is no validation for the three quarters of a millennium my people spent enslaved at the demands of your faith and the continued bondage of a great amount of our people even now.

Both of our peoples have fought hard for what they believe in. But I fear that we will hit an impasse, because you believe yours the 'True' belief. Yes - I dispute the validation for the Empire's acts (however let us not make this a theological discussion). But I also dispute the actions of my own people.

I will concede that anger and blatant blood-lust make poor excuses for the war. I wish to see a universe where our people are at peace and the Minmatar are free to exercise the Amarr faith and come and go as they please.

I do not accept lengthy subjugation of my kin as a valid path to reach this peace. But nor do I accept that the loss of so many lives is a valid path to this peace either, nevermind the notion that the Empire must be wiped out as some of my brothers will preach!

The Republic is a destructive force in this cluster, but I remind you that the establishment is not its people and whilst yes, many of my fellow Minmatar are wayward and errant in their ways we have suffered a great ordeal and the embers of that ordeal still burn. Additionally, for our part, yes some Minmatar have acted in ways deserving of reprimand but there are many of us who wish for peace between our kinds and it's those of us who seem to be ignored piecemeal when the topic arises.

I do not seek to evade confronting these 'uncomfortable truths'. I do not come to profess the perfection of the Minmatar or their Republic. I condemn the fact that you have tainted your otherwise reasonable statements with your subtle jabs at the Gallente and the Minmatar and I condemn the fact that you explicitly speak of the 'Tribalists' which creates a false assertion about who is the guilty party here. Especially after you opened by saying that you were speaking towards all who use the Day of Darkness as a validation for war, regardless of affiliation.

It is not just Tribalists who are pressuring the Empire. Being a Tribalist is not a requirement to perpetuate the hatred between our people. I am a Tribalist and it does not effect my capacity to honor an agreement with the Empire.

On the same foot I condemn any children of Matar who would speak against me on these statements, who would speak of the necessity of this wanton bloodshed, who would stand in front of the banner of the Republic and celebrate it's supposed successes and ignore it's failures as many do.

Hatred. Hatred is no justification for war. But it is a hatred that will survive for as long as both parties fail to show even the most basic levels of humility and understanding.

That was a possibility before the tribes attacked us, showing they will take any opportunity to attack if they think themselves able to do so. It would be foolishness to endanger the Faithfull by allowing them to re-gather their strength. Better to bleed them out of resources and prevent future attacks in the elders style.

Shaman Halete, I make no trifles about my personal opinions. You wish me to change them, you will need to show them to be mistaken. So far my opinions continue to receive validation from the actions and inadequecies of your kin.

As for your objection to a particular use of my words, I call all minmatar participating in the matari tribal system as tribalists. After all your people are quick to say the Republic agreeing to something does not mean that a tribe, a sub-tribe or even a clan does so. If such is the case then the Republic is a worthless play of smoke and mirrors as it clearly does not enforce it's agreements even on the land it claims and it is best to deal with the tribes instead of letting you continue these pretentions of being a united sovereign state. If these 'elders' are the true rule of your blood, then you all share in on their crimes against the Amarrian Empire.

Perhaps, shaman, you will take it upon yourself to educate your errant kin in this thread as to why he should be praying to whatever spirit he believes to guard his family, clan and tribe that the Amarr Empire never relinquishes but rather fastens itself tighter to the teachings of what he calls fairy tails. Have you the wisdom for that, I wonder?

Mensha,

Such talk of preemptive strikes and bleeding is to the ill of this entire discussion. I would gently ask you not to err, for such words will only cause even deeper entrenchment from both parties.

Before I continue, I must refuse the title of 'shaman'. I have not been called by the Spirits, and even to accept the title of shaman could be misleading to onlookers and therefore would be dishonest of me.

I do object, Mensha. Your words are objectionable because they are in direct contrast of the premise that you created when you begun this topic. It is an injustice to make a statement about all war supporters and then to single out a group because of it's societal structure.

Your words are obscure. There are times when you mention tribalists when what you really speak of are Republicans. In a similar vein, you explain this away by stating that the Republic is a guise - a far from laudable claim - an attack against the Republic in this fashion is senseless since the revival of the title of Sanmatar. Yes, the Republic can be hypocritical, but no;t he Republic is very real and your claims are fallacious.

So you refer to all Matari participating in the tribal system as tribalists in place of the Republic you invaldiate. This is intrinsically in error, as if you wish to 'deal with the tribes' because you reject their singular, sovereign identity then you cannot hope to do so by making generalizations against them as a singular, united entity.

If nothing else, I would ask you not to project the Republic's broken promises onto my brothers and sisters who do not even accept the Republic, so are in no way are accountable for it's policies as you do by criticizing the 'inadequacies' of 'tribals'.

This is why I ask you to choose your words very carefully, so that we may find mutual understanding and respect.



This is rather interesting in that I'm not exactly sure what it is meant to be. A strange boast, I believe.

I find the lack of faith among my kin saddening... I also respect their freedom to choose not to believe and try not to practice conversion. How our different faiths prosper is a subject I can't feel much else besides indifference for.

The number of followers of a false belief does not make that belief any more valid. Do not be mistaken, I do not make any claims about the truths of either of our beliefs, to do so especially in such a public fashion would be reprehensible of me.

Holding slaves did not prevent tribes from signing treaties with the Empire.
Holding slaves did not prevent a century of peace between the Empire and the Republic.

Then holding slaves is not a valid reason to break those treaties by attacking us.
If it is in anyway, you agree with me that the Amarr Empire can not trust the Republic and tribes to hold to any treaty, ever.

But admitting to that, that would take intellect and honesty.

Halete, I will refrain from calling you a shaman then. No offence was intended by my mistake in title.

Either the Minmatar Republic is a sovereign state and a signatory of various accords with the Amarrian Throne and it can be expected to enforce those treaties as a sovereign state enforces it's agreements and laws. Or it does not enforce it's own laws and agreements and as such fails the most basic test of what being a sovereign state means.

Are these elders the leaders, the true authority, of your tribes? If they are then we cannot trust any tribe to hold to agreement made with the Minmatar Republic, for clearly your tribal leaders can override those. If those elders are your leaders, the once who command all tribes. Then, all tribes are guilty of the attack upon the Amarrian Empire. All members of all minmatar tribes that acknowledge the authority of these elders.

That is what should be abundantly clear despite any differences of politics or indeed enlightenment. If the elder attack is not a violation of treaties between the Amarrian Throne and the Minmatar Republic. And if the Republic does not seek to punish those who participated in that unlawful and unjust attack? Leads to the simple conclusion that the Word of Republic to the Amarrian Empire is worthless. And by further reasoning so are the words of individual tribes comprising the so called Minmatar Republic.

As for my comment of bleeding you? That is exactly what the militias conflict is doing to you. For now a sufficient means to assure that the Minmatar will not have sufficient numbers and resources to threathen the Domain of the Amarrian Throne. Every 'freedom fighter' crew killed is one less crew to land on an Amarrian soil. Every ship of Minmatar Navy destroyed is one less ship to join this or that tribe in attacking our holdings. The Empire can take the losses we suffer and still feed it's people, it is abundantly clear the Republic can not do both for perpetuity. Perhaps a hundred years of war will be what your tribes want.

For a half measure, it is a good one. I merely advocate for less half measures in our responces to threats to the Faithful and the Faith. Besides pray tell what pre-emptive is there if we choose to use the just reason to war you have provided us with.

The Empire was very happy to do just that, and even signed treaties with the Republic to ensure that both sides could live in peace.

Then the current leaders of the Republic decided to break those treaties.

Nice ad hominem attack there Crow. And great job of completely ignoring anything I said about empathy. It's pointless trying to reason with bigoted zealots like you and Blake therefore, I'll just make it my new policy to kill as many of you slaving bastards as I can and let your 'god" deal with the fallout.

I'm sorry now that when I passed through the system you were plexing alone in I didn't stop to kill you. Rest assured I won't make that mistake again.

P.S. You committed a crime against all of humanity when you attacked a peaceful people who meant you no harm and had no idea that you even existed. I think your original sin trumps any broken agreements.

See we are in perfect agreement. Your word is worthless to the Faithful as any treaty with you and your kin is just waiting to be broken by you with an excuse of previous misdeeds. Misdeeds prior to those treaties.

Bigoted?
Absolutely not, I do not think you are an idiot because of your genealogy. But because you failed to address anything of relevance to what I said by citing your common talking points like a well trained parrakee. Because you hold to the view that not only were those attacks against us just, but that they were just in breaking agreements made millennia after the grievance you cite as justification. I call your idiocy breathtaking because it raises the spectre of extinction for your kin as a wise path in safeguarding the Amarrian Faithful. I call you a hypocrite because you are a bigoted one, to whine of ad hominem after insulting a race of humans.

Zealot?
Proudly.

Empathy?
Stop using words that demonstratebly escape the grasp of your understanding.