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CCP, please allow us to combat AFK Cloaking. Idea inside....
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T3mp3s7
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#81 - 2012-08-23 20:11:58 UTC  |  Edited by: T3mp3s7
Electra001 wrote:
I would like to propose another alternative to the AFK-Cloaking problem. I understand that CCP encourage most type of gameplay, however, stopping people from playing the game because someone has left their character logged in while cloaked isnt fair.

Why not create the following:

As soon as you cloak, a 'Tachyon Signature' number begins and slowly climbs. When you warp to a new spot, that number starts again. However, if you stay still or even at subwarp velocities, your Tachyon signature begins to raise. Very slowly mind you...it would need to take at least an hour before you could be probed by someone with max skills in scanning.

Someone in a covert ops (eg. Helios) would need 4x Tachyon Scanner Probes. With these probes, similar to normal combat probes but designed to pick up Tachyon Signatures, you could probe down someone who is cloaked while afk.

It bothers me that CCP have let this problem slide for so long. How is it fair when people log on their pilot, cloak up and go to work for a full day...which impacts so many people. Give the victims a chance to counteract the antagonists.

Thoughts?


Risk adverse play is the least fun in EvE.

Afk cloaking is not a problem. It sucks, I know as an indy person myself. But sometimes you have to bite the bullet and risk getting tackled or go somewhere else. I think Seleene mentioned that the cloak in server terms does not have a cycle time, it is on or off. No inbetween. So coding and implementing this system would be a massive undertaking not only that, but it affects a niche amount of people in nullsec.

Questions to ask yourself. Please yourself in the shoes of a Dev thinking this over.


  • You'd have to change how cloaking works, from the ground up. Would you?
  • Implement a proper system to calculate the Tachyons, test it, along with that, as these Tachyons get higher does this person decloak? or are they still cloaked but inviting people to warp near them for an attempted decloak?
  • A new item to scan down these people. [Probes? Special launcher, or expanded probe launcher?]
  • Would you need new skills to use the probes? To reduce the buildup of tachyons?
  • Would you implement a ship that gets a bonus to dispersing Tachyons? A ship that gets a bonus to using the scanner?
  • Would there be a modules that reduces Tachyon buildup?
  • What would be the difference between a coops cloak and a tech 1 or a faction cloak in buildup cost?
  • Overall, other than fighting AFK cloaking what does this do to the community? Will this affect fleet battles?
    • [*] Does this help people in high sec, low sec and null sec?
    Loius Woo
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #82 - 2012-08-23 20:18:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Loius Woo
    Zemfadel wrote:

    The point is, being able to gain an advantage over other players while your afk = flaw


    What advantage?

    If he is AFK then he is not getting any advantage, and if he is not AFK, then cloaking is working as intended.

    I agree that after some long period of time, a truly afk cloaked should get some signature that a special probe in a special launcher and with lots of skills can spend 20 minutes scanning down. That to me seems fair if an only if the person who is cloaked gets to see when the special probe is scanning their location, so that if they are not actually AFK, they can just move a little bit. This way someone gathering intel doesnt have to spam movement to prevent being caught, but instead just responds to the probes presence to remove the signature.

    The problem with this whole "AFK cloakers prevent me from playing" argument is that it is based on a very bad assumption.

    What if a hostile gang was one jump over on the gate? Not cloaked, not doing anything, just camping the other side of the gate. Arguably, you are in more danger from them than you would be from an AFK cloaker...or even an active cloaker since most cloaked ships are not that dangerous solo anyway. Should they not be allowed to stay there all day just because they scare you?

    Then expand it again, what if you knew that a hostile gang had just set destination from Jita to your system? They are coming to get you, is that bad? Does it prevent you from playing? Should people not be allowed to plan to come get you since you have no ability to counter them until they actually attack you?

    So in summary, your argument is bad because you are basically asking for CCP to limit the game so that when you feel you are safe, you can actually be safe and when you are not safe, you should be warned that you are not. Which in my opinion is bad.
    Gizznitt Malikite
    Agony Unleashed
    Agony Empire
    #83 - 2012-08-23 20:20:40 UTC
    Zemfadel wrote:
    I love that the same group of trollers always reply to these threads. Mag's, do you not find it embarrassing that you spend all day on the EVE forums? do you even play this game or do you just pay the sub for the forum access?

    1. Awesome idea by the OP. Works perfectly to allow active people to remain uncatchable, allows for using cloaks for short breaks, even allows for using them to disrupt local activity as long as you are even somewhat at the comp, while stopping people from having there toon cloaked in a system while they are at work so that they can return to a system with other players who have gone about their business and are easy targets for a quick ambush.

    2. Unless things have change in the last year CCP has said they aren't removing local in null sec, get over it. Local was removed in W-space so that people have that game play if they want it.

    3. Going about your business with an afk cloaker is exactly what they want you to do. Its a win win situation for the afk cloaker really, either you stop doing anything in that system (they win by stopping you from being able to play without even being at the computer) or you go about your business (they win by being able to return to the computer with soft targets). There is literally no down side or challenge to over come with afk cloaking, you always win and can never be killed (baring utter stupidity) or even threatened.

    4. AFK cloaking is very similar to macro mining, even if it upsets you to admit it. In both instances a player is gaining an advantage with out actively playing the game. macro mining gets you ore, afk cloaking gets you easy targets. At least macro mining has an in game counter (shooting the macro miner), afk cloaking, and the advantage it affords (depriving other players of any reaction time when the afk cloaker finally decides to return among other things), has no counter in game or out. So afk cloaking is worse than macro mining. Even if CCP weren't trying to stop macro mining, there would be a way for other players to stop it, or at least make it harder. Not so much with afk cloaking.

    CCP/Devs: when you look at these threads remember that, unlike mags, most players never even look on these forums much less post their opinion on them. A lot of the opinions you are getting here are the people who get on here with the sole intention of telling other players their ideas are bad and telling you that anything that makes them have to work for what they want (kills) is a terrible idea and would ruin the game. Probably similar to marco miners getting angry about people suggesting they should have to work for what they want (ore).


    You make some interesting points.....

    1.) If we are to create a cloak hunter system, I like the OP's idea. It's well balanced between allowing a cloak ship to be hunted while maintaining what I consider the primary operational role cloak....

    2.) Local was removed in WH space as a test bed.... While I DONT want nullsec local to turn into WH's delayed local, I strongly desire local to be replaced with an actual intel tool that doesn't provide complete character information on everyone in local the instant they enter system.... I don't know if this will ever become more than a dream...

    4.) While I personally loathe AFK cloaking as a tactic, it is NOTHING like macro mining... AFK cloaking does NOT gain you anything tangible. It does not get you easy kills, it does not gain you ore, it does not gain you loot.... And what's more, it is EASY to counter a cloaked ship.... you know how many cloakers are in local, you can find out what ship types they fly, and you can prepare by flying smart and preparing a counter to them.... (Note: I realize I'm purposely ignoring bridging, but that's because bridging in an unscoutable gang to gank a target is a problem with the bridging mechanic, NOT the cloaking mechanic!!!!) All afk cloaking really does is provides a psychological benefit.

    3.) Cloaking does not directly interfere with operations in a system... They re-introduce the element of risk back into nullsec. And Oh my gosh, what a horrific concept that must be... Do you really think a nullsec system should be free of danger???? The ability to create a risk free environment is a direct result of using the omniscient "local chat" as an intel tool, which is NOT the game designer's intended use for Local!! The only way to re-introduce danger back into these NULLSEC areas is via afk cloaking.... And until CCP"fixes" the problem with the Omniscient local chat, they have NO BUSINESS "fixing" AFK cloaking... the two are intimately intertwined...

    TL; DR;
    AFK Cloaking is the ingame mechanic that allows players to re-introduce the psychological atmosphere of an "ever-present threat" into any system of EvE. You should NOT alter AFK cloaking effectiveness until local chat is replaced with a less omniscient intel tool!!!!
    Zemfadel
    Hand Trade Society
    #84 - 2012-08-23 21:08:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Zemfadel
    afk cloaking gains you an advantage by forcing other players to either treat you as an active player and stop local activity (even when your inactive) or treat you like your afk and go about their business. in the first situation the cloaker is stopping you from playing (earning is, mining ore, moving good, etc.) even if they aren't playing then (afk). In the second case the cloaker can attack you without your ability to react to their presence (accept for when they appear on your overview). They are gaining an advantage by either forcing you to stop playing or forcing you to assume they are afk and continue playing while they are not playing. This means that when they return they will either have a soft target (assuming the cloaker is still afk) or have shut down a system.

    Again, i would be perfectly ok with this tactic if the cloaker were forced to be at the computer while doing this. I'm all for cloakers being able to sit in a system 23/7 to gain the advantages that go with this, but they shouldn't be able to gain these advantages while they are out at the bar so that when they come home they can use these advantages to try to get kills. Its the same as macro mining in that both afford you the advantages you are looking for (ore for macro miners, isk for macro ratters, soft targets for afk cloakers) even though you aren't at the computer while doing so.
    Loius Woo
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #85 - 2012-08-23 21:11:27 UTC
    Zemfadel wrote:
    afk cloaking gains you an advantage by forcing other players to either treat you as an active player and stop local activity (even when your inactive) or treat you like your afk and go about their business. in the first situation the cloaker is stopping you from playing (earning is, mining ore, moving good, etc.) even if they aren't playing then (afk). In the second case the cloaker can attack you without your ability to react to their presence (accept for when they appear on your overview). They are gaining an advantage by either forcing you to stop playing or forcing you to assume they are afk and continue playing while they are not playing. This means that when they return they will either have a soft target (assuming they are still afk) or have shut down a system.

    Again, i would be perfectly ok with this tactic if the cloaker were forced to be at the computer while doing this. I'm all for cloakers being able to sit in a system 23/7 to gain the advantages that go with this, but they shouldn't be able to gain these advantages while they are out at the bar so that when they come home they can use these advantages to try to get kills. Its the same as afk cloaking in that both affords you


    What about the guys one jump over?

    Of the guys who are headed your way in a gang?

    Again, its a false dilemma, you don't have to quit playing because someone is cloaked, there is no advantage being had.

    Im gonna go start a thread that says "CCP add adjacent systems to my local so that players in adjacent systems don't have an advantage over me by being there and forcing me to stop local activity. I should know if they are there before they have a chance to hurt me"
    Mag's
    Azn Empire
    #86 - 2012-08-23 21:11:58 UTC
    Zemfadel wrote:
    I love that the same group of trollers always reply to these threads. Mag's, do you not find it embarrassing that you spend all day on the EVE forums? do you even play this game or do you just pay the sub for the forum access?

    1. Awesome idea by the OP. Works perfectly to allow active people to remain uncatchable, allows for using cloaks for short breaks, even allows for using them to disrupt local activity as long as you are even somewhat at the comp, while stopping people from having there toon cloaked in a system while they are at work so that they can return to a system with other players who have gone about their business and are easy targets for a quick ambush.
    What relevance does my posting have and why should I find it embarrassing?

    It's not an awesome Idea, as it breaks active cloak operations and also gives more intel power to the locals. That is not a balanced approach.

    Zemfadel wrote:
    2. Unless things have change in the last year CCP has said they aren't removing local in null sec, get over it. Local was removed in W-space so that people have that game play if they want it.
    They have wanted to remove local for quite some time, but it's a very difficult mechanic to replace. But if you want to remove AFKing, then local has to be a part of any package of changes. It is after all, the reason for AFKing.

    Zemfadel wrote:
    3. Going about your business with an afk cloaker is exactly what they want you to do. Its a win win situation for the afk cloaker really, either you stop doing anything in that system (they win by stopping you from being able to play without even being at the computer) or you go about your business (they win by being able to return to the computer with soft targets). There is literally no down side or challenge to over come with afk cloaking, you always win and can never be killed (baring utter stupidity) or even threatened.
    They hope you don't organize yourself and set systems in place to combat that single cloaker in local. But the fact remains, (as seen by these threads) that many null sec renters and pets, simply don't want to organize or adapt. They don't want to rat in PvP fit ships, or group up and help each other. They want maximum yield barges and ISK per minute officer fit PvE ships. It's not hard to understand why these have a shoot me sticker on their backs.

    Zemfadel wrote:
    4. AFK cloaking is very similar to macro mining, even if it upsets you to admit it. In both instances a player is gaining an advantage with out actively playing the game. macro mining gets you ore, afk cloaking gets you easy targets. At least macro mining has an in game counter (shooting the macro miner), afk cloaking, and the advantage it affords (depriving other players of any reaction time when the afk cloaker finally decides to return among other things), has no counter in game or out. So afk cloaking is worse than macro mining. Even if CCP weren't trying to stop macro mining, there would be a way for other players to stop it, or at least make it harder. Not so much with afk cloaking.
    Aren't you embarrassed by comparing completely different things and claim some spurious link? No, they are not the same and not even similar.

    Macro programs gain you wealth by actively playing for you, whilst you are AFK.
    When AFKing and doing nothing, you hope they react in a certain way and stop their own wealth creation. Not the same thing.

    Zemfadel wrote:
    CCP/Devs: when you look at these threads remember that, unlike mags, most players never even look on these forums much less post their opinion on them. A lot of the opinions you are getting here are the people who get on here with the sole intention of telling other players their ideas are bad and telling you that anything that makes them have to work for what they want (kills) is a terrible idea and would ruin the game. Probably similar to marco miners getting angry about people suggesting they should have to work for what they want (ore).
    When people like yourself, seemingly don't understand the mechanics being used. Or even understand the actual issue at hand. The rest of us try to make you aware of those errors and post accordingly. Your continual lack of understanding is not our problem, but we hope you catch up soon.

    Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
    Zemfadel
    Hand Trade Society
    #87 - 2012-08-23 21:17:14 UTC
    [/quote]
    What about the guys one jump over?

    Of the guys who are headed your way in a gang?

    Again, its a false dilemma, you don't have to quit playing because someone is cloaked, there is no advantage being had.

    Im gonna go start a thread that says "CCP add adjacent systems to my local so that players in adjacent systems don't have an advantage over me by being there and forcing me to stop local activity. I should know if they are there before they have a chance to hurt me"
    [/quote]

    if there is a gang one system over and you know its there you can combat it by going and fighting them. In other words, you have a way to counter them being in the system next to your.

    also, its an actual dilemma. the choices really are 1. stop doing things in that system; 2. continue doing things in that system. There really are only 2 choices
    Loius Woo
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #88 - 2012-08-23 21:22:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Loius Woo
    Zemfadel wrote:
    Loius Woo wrote:

    What about the guys one jump over?

    Of the guys who are headed your way in a gang?

    Again, its a false dilemma, you don't have to quit playing because someone is cloaked, there is no advantage being had.

    Im gonna go start a thread that says "CCP add adjacent systems to my local so that players in adjacent systems don't have an advantage over me by being there and forcing me to stop local activity. I should know if they are there before they have a chance to hurt me"


    if there is a gang one system over and you know its there you can combat it by going and fighting them. In other words, you have a way to counter them being in the system next to your.

    also, its an actual dilemma. the choices really are 1. stop doing things in that system; 2. continue doing things in that system. There really are only 2 choices


    That is the choice you have if there is no one there at all also...if you are ratting and get tired and think about going to bed you have two choices, keep doing what you are doing, or stop. It has nothing to do with someone being cloaked.

    If they are there and they want to kill you, what are you afraid they will do? Is it a stealth bomber? Cause those are terrible solo. Perhaps its a Black-Ops BS, which is a waste of money to use solo. Maybe its a cloaky hauler... they are a big threat. Or perhaps its a cloaked cyno waiting for the right time to hot drop...but if its a BO cyno, you will see local spike first, and if its a regular cyno, you will see the cyno before anything comes in. Either way, they would have to try to tackle their prey first.

    And if the guys in the next system over are a threat that you can go counter on your own or with a gang, how could you or your gang NOT be able to counter the cloaker when he de-cloaks to attack?

    Your argument is so full of holes its crazy.

    Please, someone tell me why having a guy in local that is not blue to you is so terrible that it ruins your gameplay experience.

    What dire situation is likely or possible to happen when there is a cloaked ship in local that is not possible or likely when they are not there or not cloaked?
    Zemfadel
    Hand Trade Society
    #89 - 2012-08-23 21:32:16 UTC
    "{afk cloaking} gain you {easy targets}, whilst you are AFK."
    see the similarity there?
    they aren't trying to get ore, they are trying to get easy targets. in both situations the player gets what they want while they are afk

    Quote:
    When AFKing and doing nothing, you hope they react in a certain way and stop their own wealth creation. Not the same thing.

    so is afk cloaking for "stoping wealth creation" or subverting local?
    by the way, "subverting local" is just another way of saying "getting easy targets". the goal is to stop local from being useful and there for allow the AFKer to attack players who dont know he is coming, correct?
    I'm arguing that the goal is either, which is why you can't lose when you afk cloak. One of the two of those MUST happen, right?

    The problem is, you either "stop wealth creation" while you are not playing the game, or you "subvert local" while you are not playing the game and have easy targets when ever you return.
    Mag's
    Azn Empire
    #90 - 2012-08-23 21:47:58 UTC
    They are trying to do both. Subvert local instant intel and have you stop ratting/mining. Whether either happens is down to the local residents and out of the AFKer's control.

    Unlike locals instant intel, the psychological effects from AFKing are not a guarantee. So locals still have a massive advantage in their favour if they plan and play with systems in place. This means it's far from win win and can end very badly for the AFKer.

    As it's local they are actually using to interact whilst they are AFK, why is it you don't suggest ways for that mechanic to be changed?

    Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
    Kingston Black
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #91 - 2012-08-23 21:56:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Kingston Black
    man up, stop being greedy and doing sanctums in shiney fit marauders solo and do your sanctums in a fleet of cheap ships with points you'll make more money than you lose if ganked and you may well kill the ganker

    if you can't hande this then maybe 0.0 is not for you
    Loius Woo
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #92 - 2012-08-23 22:45:47 UTC
    Loius Woo wrote:

    What dire situation is likely or possible to happen when there is a cloaked ship in local that is not possible or likely when they are not there or not cloaked?


    Again I ask since you cannot or will not answer this simple question.
    Zemfadel
    Hand Trade Society
    #93 - 2012-08-23 23:02:56 UTC
    Quote:
    They are trying to do both. Subvert local instant intel and have you stop ratting/mining. Whether either happens is down to the local residents and out of the AFKer's control.


    so you admit that afk cloaking is ALWAYS successful since one of those two things MUST happen, right? It's not possible for a player, or group of players, to both continue mining/ratting/whatever and also continue to use local as an intel source. they MUST either stop using local as an intel source OR stop mining/ratting/whatever.

    This means that there is no situation where afk cloaking fails and since there is no way to locate, track, destroy, or in any way interact with a cloaked ship (aside from bumping it which is only possible if you already know where it is) there is also no way to "fight" an afk cloaker. There for, afk cloaking (sitting in a system for a long time while cloaked) as a tactic can't be countered or combated and is always successful. It is the definition of lopsided.

    If i continue to rat in a large group it is completely feasible that the "afk cloaker" could, after having succeeded at subverting local while out drinking with his friends, come back and cyno in a fleet of his friends and kill all of us. He got exactly what he wanted (lots of juicy kills) because he pressed [F1] and left eve running while he was out doing something else, gaining himself a huge advantage (subverting local) without having to even be in his house much less at the keyboard.

    This is a perfectly acceptable and fair tactic if your actually playing the game while your doing it. You want to read a book, do homework, jerk off, whatever, while you sit in a system "subverting local" I say go for it (not much different than mining). The locals will still have to make the exact same choice, either ignore you/assume they can take you and your friends or stop doing anything in local. The suggestion by the OP would most certainly allow for this, but getting either one of these wins while out mowing the lawn is wrong. Your gaining something in game without playing the game.

    I am all for overhauling local but since a local overhaul is a HUGE job that will probably take CCP the better part of a decade there should be a fix implemented that stops people from being able to go afk for 23 hours while cloaked without disturbing the current LEGITIMATE uses for cloaking. The OPs idea would do this perfectly. the ONLY thing that it would stop is people who are afk, and there for people who are gaining an advantage without actually playing
    Mag's
    Azn Empire
    #94 - 2012-08-24 07:34:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
    Zemfadel wrote:
    so you admit that afk cloaking is ALWAYS successful since one of those two things MUST happen, right?
    No, neither are guaranteed.

    Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
    Robert Caldera
    Caldera Trading and Investment
    #95 - 2012-08-24 08:00:46 UTC
    Zemfadel wrote:
    while stopping people from having there toon cloaked in a system while they are at work so that they can return to a system with other players who have gone about their business and are easy targets for a quick ambush.

    this is exactly why afk cloaking is done. Nothing wrong with that. You use cloak for your safety, the enemy has to use afk cloaking to reduce the usefulness of exact that undisruptable intel. Tell me another way to counter local as intel for catching those people.

    Zemfadel wrote:
    2. Unless things have change in the last year CCP has said they aren't removing local in null sec, get over it. Local was removed in W-space so that people have that game play if they want it.

    yeah. Exactly as with cloaking. If you cant handle hostile neutrals hanging aronud, go to high sec where afk cloakers have no purpose.

    Zemfadel wrote:
    3. Going about your business with an afk cloaker is exactly what they want you to do. Its a win win situation for the afk cloaker really, either you stop doing anything in that system

    no. You can do pretty everything, apart of mindlessly ratting or mining solo probably.

    Zemfadel wrote:
    (they win by stopping you from being able to play without even being at the computer) or you go about your business (they win by being able to return to the computer with soft targets).

    no. Its you who are stopping you from playing because 1) you are only ratting 2) you have chosen wrong place to play

    Zemfadel wrote:
    There is literally no down side or challenge to over come with afk cloaking, you always win and can never be killed (baring utter stupidity) or even threatened.

    while sitting afk cloaked yeah you basically cant be killed. On the other hand you gain no profit by just sitting afk, profit only generated when you decloak and expose yourself to risk. You block an entire account from doing something useful else. What downside has sitting in POS or docked btw?

    [qquote=Zemfadel]4. AFK cloaking is very similar to macro mining, even if it upsets you to admit it. In both instances a player is gaining an advantage with out actively playing the game[/quote]
    most stupid argument ever. I'm training skills afk or even offline. My industry jobs and market orders complete while I'm completely afk or offline.

    [qquote=Zemfadel]. macro mining gets you ore, afk cloaking gets you easy targets. At least macro mining has an in game counter (shooting the macro miner), afk cloaking, and the advantage it affords (depriving other players of any reaction time when the afk cloaker finally decides to return among other things), has no counter in game or out. So afk cloaking is worse than macro mining. Even if CCP weren't trying to stop macro mining, there would be a way for other players to stop it, or at least make it harder. Not so much with afk cloaking.
    [/quote]
    afk cloaking does not need any counter because it doesnt do any harm to anyone while afk, nor does it give you any profit while afk. Just sitting somewhere shouldnt have any penalties and must be possible at any time. Because, why the heck should it not????

    CCP WHAT THE **** IS THIS STUPID RESTRICTION OF 5 QUOTES??????????????? FIX IT
    Robert Caldera
    Caldera Trading and Investment
    #96 - 2012-08-24 08:06:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
    Zemfadel wrote:
    afk cloaking gains you an advantage by forcing other players to either treat you as an active player and stop local activity (even when your inactive) or treat you like your afk and go about their business. in the first situation the cloaker is stopping you from playing (earning is, mining ore, moving good, etc.) even if they aren't playing then (afk). In the second case the cloaker can attack you without your ability to react to their presence (accept for when they appear on your overview). They are gaining an advantage by either forcing you to stop playing or forcing you to assume they are afk and continue playing while they are not playing. This means that when they return they will either have a soft target (assuming the cloaker is still afk) or have shut down a system.

    this is how it works yes. And there is nothing wrong with it. You use intel for your safety, others go there as response, sit afk forever with the sole intention of making local of less use for you. This is absolutely fine and required by current local mechanics. You dock up when a neutral enters system, fine, then I will just go and sit there simply to be able to kill you at some point (days after). This is right. Thanks to local mechanics telling you instantly I'm there. You shouldnt have this kind of faultless instant intel at all, to begin with.


    Zemfadel wrote:
    Again, i would be perfectly ok with this tactic if the cloaker were forced to be at the computer while doing this.
    No, if this wouldnt work afk it wouldnt work at all, because it takes a lot of time to reach its effectiveness peak.
    Its not cloakers fault you cant play, its your fault living in a space you arent adapted to and cant do anything with neutral in local - exactly such people are primary targets of afk cloakers, stupid people unable to handle simple situations, people who just pick a tiny fraction of the game, try to play it while ignoring the rest then go to forums whining if this tiny fraction of the game is refused to them by other people legitimately being around - its not fault of cloak mechanics its just people failing at this game and so becoming easy targets for other people. THIS IS RIGHT!
    If you just want ratting, stay in high sec there are no afk cloakers.
    anishamora
    Atelierele Grivita
    #97 - 2012-08-24 12:54:37 UTC  |  Edited by: anishamora
    Zemfadel wrote:

    so you admit that afk cloaking is ALWAYS successful since one of those two things MUST happen, right? It's not possible for a player, or group of players, to both continue mining/ratting/whatever and also continue to use local as an intel source. they MUST either stop using local as an intel source OR stop mining/ratting/whatever.


    Nope, you can continue ratting and not give a **** about the random non-blue in your system. Either he shows up and you get a fight or he doesn't and you keep doing what you like. Point in my case:

    http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13308448 T1 large beams ftw.

    Nullsec wasn't supposed to be ez-mode or solo player's heaven. If you believe there's someone cloaked in your system, fit your ship accordingly, switch to one with drones, more tank less gank, use an alt in 'cane to guard you. Form a small gang and do w/e you did grouped.

    Let's say I'm a lone miner in a remote hi-sec system; suddenly local+1: should I dock and wait for the guy to leave because he might be a suicide ganker? Should I go whining to CCP to remove the ability for them to gank me? No, I'm not an idiot, I'll keep doing what I do. If he'll actually kill me next time I'll use a tanky bait and watch him get popped by concord.

    Your only problem is that there is ONE single little thing that might be used to ruin your safe ratting paradise and instead of finding a solution you call upon CCP to change the rules for you. This is EVE you're playing, HTFU.
    Nikk Narrel
    Moonlit Bonsai
    #98 - 2012-08-24 14:10:11 UTC
    Robert Caldera wrote:
    You shouldnt have this kind of faultless instant intel at all, to begin with.

    THIS

    We have no effort intel right now dumbing down our reactions. If you are too lazy to at least start scanning for hostiles, or take some tactical preventive measures, go to high sec.

    You will never have a guarantee of safety in EVE.

    If the pilot was not cloaked in your system, then he could be next door with a bookmark to your location. You are in trouble if you look away for just ten seconds either way.

    We LIKE it this way.

    It makes our rewards feel like they weren't just handed to us on a silver platter, like we earned them in a hostile environment instead of a daycare for small children.

    Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
    Weasel Juice
    Mayhem and Destruction
    #99 - 2012-08-24 14:14:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Weasel Juice
    There was an AFK cloaker in Dodixie. I was too scared to undock. True story.

    It's not only far more likely a corp mate will drop a Cyno in your supercarriers face than a cloaked unknown will do anything, but d-scan would hard counter any attempts of such a ship to probe down you whilst carebearing. Yes, it will mean you have to do something and pay attention, but you have to do this regardless. Your intel channel certainly won't help you if a neut comes through a WH and sees your ratting Chimera in STUP-1D.

    Interestingly it's mostly people complaining about this when they do carebearing, because they want to feel safe dangerous space with their expensive ships. In PvP most people couldn't care less if there was an AFK cloaker. It's not the emptyness of local that makes 0.0 relatively safe, but knowing how to utilize your game tools and how to react in situations.

    And even if it was a real issue - if you bring a counter to "AFK cloaking", people will just be "AFK MWDing at 5-10km/s" in some frigate.
    Zemfadel
    Hand Trade Society
    #100 - 2012-08-24 21:10:52 UTC
    Mag's wrote:
    Zemfadel wrote:
    so you admit that afk cloaking is ALWAYS successful since one of those two things MUST happen, right?
    No, neither are guaranteed.



    So your trying to say that if there is a cloaker in a system you have more choices than to either go about your business or stop going about your business? I'm almost positive that those are the only two options and you must choose one.

    Maybe an example will help you (I'm guessing you actually understand just fine but you dont like the consequences of admitting it). A ship jumps into the null sec system where you live. Your choices are; [1] continue about your business (abandon local as in intel source or "subvert local"), [2] stop continuing about your business (stop mining/ratting/etc.). There for, either choice that you make is a victory for the afk cloaker, and since you MUST make one of these two choices afk cloaking is ALWAYS successful.

    Your choices are [A] or not [A]
    What is the other choice that you claim exists? If you actually have one I'm sure there are a lot of philosophers that would be very interested.

    anishamora wrote:

    ...
    Nope, you can continue ratting and not give a **** about the random non-blue in your system. Either he shows up and you get a fight or he doesn't and you keep doing what you like...


    continuing to rat still constitutes being successful for an afk cloaker since you are now a soft target

    Robert Caldera wrote:
    Zemfadel wrote:
    Again, i would be perfectly ok with this tactic if the cloaker were forced to be at the computer while doing this.
    No, if this wouldn't work afk it wouldn't work at all, because it takes a lot of time to reach its effectiveness peak...


    Exactly. Your gaining an advantage while being afk. You want to get easy kills (or the chance at them) without having to do any of the work for them. You don't want to have to actually sit there and play eve while you gain your advantage (until "[sitting cloaked in local reaches] its effectiveness peak"), you want to be doing something else. This is the exact same as a macro miner saying they don't want to sit and mine all day to get what they want, macro mining just has a more detrimental effect to the overall game.