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Minmatar Capitals are being re-worked

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Lugalzagezi666
#61 - 2011-10-13 20:31:27 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
[quote=Khanh'rhh]EDIT: just so we're keeping the argument in context, he's saying it's "abuse" that a shipclass with a bonus and slot layout favorable to passive shield tanking has an awesome passive shield tank. And because of this, it's totally reasonable and balanced that armor supercaps get a massive EHP boost over shield ones.


Yes, its nonsense. 2-2,5k passive defence means absolutely nothing on supercap level and especially if you only get it at 30-33% shields.

Example :
Aeon - 35m ehp, 8 slots used for tank
Wyvern - 25m ehp, 10 slots used for tank

Then add slaves for aeon, add gang bonus for aeon and add titan bonus for aeon.
No pirate implants for wyvern, no shield bonus if you dont have free time to rr the shields, same with titan bonus.

- remove effect of slave set on capitals
- make shield amount bonus from skills/implants/titan to not only increase max shields, but also current shields.
- adjust the cpu needs for cst or cpu of some ships
UR13L
Perkone
Caldari State
#62 - 2011-10-13 20:35:09 UTC
For the Niddy/Hel what do you think of changing the bonus itself to something more combat oriented. Theres already 2 carriers with resistance bonuses, and one with a dps bonus. Maybe make it something like:

+x % drone and fighter tracking and +x% drone and fighter speed per level along with a mass reduction for quicker align times, and either faster cap recharge or a reduced cap requirement for jumping

In keeping with the winmatar theme of hit fast and get out as necessary. The tracking bonus would be an indirect dps boost and gear it more for skirmish type fights.

For the Nag, as said several times above, due to the increased training time and split weapons w/ 4 turret slots, it needs a DPS boost (and all dreads need a tracking boost).

Cant really speak to the ragnarok
Lugalzagezi666
#63 - 2011-10-13 20:37:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugalzagezi666
Well, rep bonus isnt bad. If you are repping pos.

E: for niddy just increse it from 5 to 7,5% or keep it at 5% and make it affect local reps too. Yes, it will suck for uberblobs and so, but it will become great triage carrier for smaller fights. Or maybe bonus that would make reps more efficient in terms of cap /both local and remote/.

But its only point of view of low sec guy, so probably others will have better ideas.
Epiphaniess
Verboten Technologies
#64 - 2011-10-13 20:46:05 UTC
Headerman wrote:
Remember this is a discussion on how to improve the Minmatar capitals.

Has anyone got some thoughts on the Ragnarok?


It's crap get a Avatar instead.
Aamrr
#65 - 2011-10-13 20:47:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Aamrr
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Well, rep bonus isnt bad. If you are repping pos.

If they improved the repair bonus to 7.5% and applied it to local reps as well, the Nidhoggur would be a very respectable triage platform. It'd get significantly stronger reps with slightly weaker tank, at the cost of extreme capacitor strain.

I'd probably still prefer the Archon, but it's an option worth looking at.
UR13L
Perkone
Caldari State
#66 - 2011-10-13 20:53:53 UTC
if it retains the repair bonus it should proabably also get a passive tank bonus (a little more armor maybe), for spider tank style tanking that doesnt include local reps. As it is now w/ the rep bonus and paper tank it always dies first
Epiphaniess
Verboten Technologies
#67 - 2011-10-13 20:57:03 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Well, rep bonus isnt bad. If you are repping pos.




I am pretty that most people interested in Cap ships like the Hel and Nidy are not looking to invest so much time and isk , so they can rep POS.

I think this one of the reasons CCP wants to look at Minmatar Caps.
Lugalzagezi666
#68 - 2011-10-13 20:57:33 UTC
Spider tanking? How much nyxes it takes to kill a carrier in 15 secs? Lol
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2011-10-13 20:59:09 UTC
Personally i think a Super Carrier is something that brings all the good things in EVE together:
- High DPS
- Very strong tank
- The best mods
- A very good alliance with good corpies

The Hel, Nag and Nid need to step up, not drag the others down

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UR13L
Perkone
Caldari State
#70 - 2011-10-13 21:01:29 UTC
Epiphaniess wrote:
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Well, rep bonus isnt bad. If you are repping pos.




I am pretty that most people interested in Cap ships like the Hel and Nidy are not looking to invest so much time and isk , so they can rep POS.

I think this one of the reasons CCP wants to look at Minmatar Caps.


Exactly.




spider tanking can work well. Read some of the BRs from RnK or their pantheon video. And any carrier spider tanking or not cant stand up to X+10 nyxs
Lugalzagezi666
#71 - 2011-10-13 21:13:46 UTC
UR13L wrote:
And any carrier spider tanking or not cant stand up to X+10 nyxs

So id say, with numbers of supercarriers that are in game, panteon carriers are actually obsolete. Because even in lowsec its pretty much impossible to get cap fight without supercarriers interfering these days.

Better not base future buffs on niddys viability for this tactics.

Epiphaniess
Verboten Technologies
#72 - 2011-10-13 21:31:06 UTC
Headerman wrote:
Remember this is a discussion on how to improve the Minmatar capitals.

Has anyone got some thoughts on the Ragnarok?


The Ragnarok’s Doomsday weapon is basically a bunch of missiles coming out and hitting a target.

Wouldn't it be kind of neat and unique if it's doomsday could hit more than one target but less than say 10, basically all the targets you have locked. And they would have to be targets you do have locked no others.

Have the Doomsday's damage divided between all of the targets in some kind of equation taking account ship sizes and other factors.

Maybe have to balance that ability by making the Ragnarok's Doomsday weaker on a single target.
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2011-10-13 22:08:00 UTC
Epiphaniess wrote:
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Well, rep bonus isnt bad. If you are repping pos.




I am pretty that most people interested in Cap ships like the Hel and Nidy are not looking to invest so much time and isk , so they can rep POS.

I think this one of the reasons CCP wants to look at Minmatar Caps.



That's why I'm getting them. And I just live in a wormhole. It's even more important in null where sov structures come into play.
Diehard15
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2011-10-13 22:19:39 UTC
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Well, rep bonus isnt bad. If you are repping pos.

E: for niddy just increse it from 5 to 7,5% or keep it at 5% and make it affect local reps too. Yes, it will suck for uberblobs and so, but it will become great triage carrier for smaller fights. Or maybe bonus that would make reps more efficient in terms of cap /both local and remote/.

But its only point of view of low sec guy, so probably others will have better ideas.


Having the Nidhoggurs bonus effect local reps would be a positive boost to it.
The Capacitor Amount and CPU/Grid stats need to be increased also.
Epiphaniess
Verboten Technologies
#75 - 2011-10-13 22:37:59 UTC
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Epiphaniess wrote:
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:
Well, rep bonus isnt bad. If you are repping pos.




I am pretty that most people interested in Cap ships like the Hel and Nidy are not looking to invest so much time and isk , so they can rep POS.

I think this one of the reasons CCP wants to look at Minmatar Caps.



That's why I'm getting them. And I just live in a wormhole. It's even more important in null where sov structures come into play.


I said most people. Not everyone.

Congrats on being a unique snowflake.

And a sad, sad Cap pilot.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2011-10-13 22:40:24 UTC
Has anyone else had a good close look at ammo for the x-large guns for the Nag?
- short range ammo has an optimal of about 19km, medium about 31km.

Is there any room to add more optimal or more damage? I have heard that a Phoenix usually gets top damage dealer on POS shoots?

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Epiphaniess
Verboten Technologies
#77 - 2011-10-13 23:09:46 UTC
Headerman wrote:
Has anyone else had a good close look at ammo for the x-large guns for the Nag?
- short range ammo has an optimal of about 19km, medium about 31km.

Is there any room to add more optimal or more damage? I have heard that a Phoenix usually gets top damage dealer on POS shoots?


Projectiles have never been about optimal range, they have always been about fallout. When you are a projectile jockey you tend to forget about there being such a thing as optimal and focus on fallout efficiency.

I don't think more X-large projectile optimal range is the answer.
Rael Nazari
STA'IN
#78 - 2011-10-13 23:10:53 UTC
Headerman wrote:
Mfume Apocal wrote:
This is more generalized, but Crystals should affect capitals shield boosters if slaves affect capital buffer.


They already do. One thing i was thinking of though is creating a new implant set just for shield amount. If that was available, it would go great with the Hel


Yes please. I too would like to see more ridiculous passive tanks everywhere. I am not meaning on the Capital Level by the way.
Epiphaniess
Verboten Technologies
#79 - 2011-10-13 23:29:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Epiphaniess
Rael Nazari wrote:
Headerman wrote:
Mfume Apocal wrote:
This is more generalized, but Crystals should affect capitals shield boosters if slaves affect capital buffer.


They already do. One thing i was thinking of though is creating a new implant set just for shield amount. If that was available, it would go great with the Hel


Yes please. I too would like to see more ridiculous passive tanks everywhere. I am not meaning on the Capital Level by the way.


Imagine drake fleets with those...

Actually never mind most of the ships I fly are shield tanked anyways.

Please give me, I would love a set of implants as awesome Slaves that increase shield amount.

Could change the Halo set from reduced signature to increased shield amount.

To help balance out the passive shield regen boost you would get could give them a shield regen penalty.
Ragel Tropxe
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#80 - 2011-10-14 07:00:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Ragel Tropxe
amongst the many issues which are being discussed here, I think the critical problem with Minmatar capitals is a design focus which started off muddled and then has been iterated on in a haphazard way.

We all know the other three races are about - their ships follow a consistent design philosophy....Minmatar have:

Carrier - originally could be either shield or armour tanked - had a mid moved to a low so its now a mediocre armour tanker
Dread - can be either shield or armour tanked (although I think it tends more to a shield fit)
Mothership - shield tanker

No other race has this quixotic mix. some may say flexibility is an advantage, and this may be so for smaller ships, but capitals need to have focus to be effective.

Personally I would advocate that Nidhoggur follows the tier 3 battleship , like Amarr and Caldari already do. This would mean it becomes a shield tanker with the carrier having a bonus to active rep amount. this would also balance carriers with 2 being armour and 2 being shield

IMO the Nag is pretty ok as it is following the last balance pass 2? years ago, 3 guns would be better but I recall this was said to be impossible because of the artwork assets

The Hel needs focus on shields (ie increase shields at the expense of armour) change mid/low slot config to allow a better tank. I would then add a bonus to fighter / FB tracking or similar. This would mean we have 2 brick fit motherships and 2 "offensive" motherships.

Whilst we're at it Id reverse the decision made to make the fleet issue Tempest an armour tanker - another classic outcome from the lack of design focus.


P.s if you're going to do a balance pass, you need to look at the fitting requirements of Shield transporters, to ensure ships can actually fit the modules they need to

pps please review the mechanic where shield ships jump into system and end up having to rep up their shields following loss of gang bonuses