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FW, The Change Curve and you, or how I learned to stop worrying and love the blob....
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X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#21 - 2012-08-24 05:25:10 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
If you nerf plex farmers / income you kill all action once again.

Yup. Rewards keep farmers farming, and keep pvpers in theater fighting.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-08-24 06:16:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrett
Bad Messenger wrote:


requiring that you have to shoot npc does not fix anything really. It may mean that some of the current farmers can not do plexes, but nothing else does not change. No one is still going to hunt those down and farmers will not pvp any more than now.

CCP managed to create reason to attack, now they should create reason to defend. Docking denial is not working enough, and flip flopping systems is just result of PVE wihtout PVE, and has nothing to do with PVP.


But the gunless frig farmers don't fight anyway. Making it so they have to kill rats will either run all of them off, or make some of them fly real ships that we can shoot. It will make people that already DO fight fly bigger ships more often, giving us a wider variety of targets.

Running off the gunless frigs is a good thing. It reduces the speed of arbitrary system flipping, and increases the relative value of the LP for the people that do fight. We won't lose targets over it though, because those guys aren't really targets now.

I do agree that some incentive for defending would be good, but that needs some thought. It is just as abuseable as the current system. Don't nerf the rewards - just make it so there is some risk to get them.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#23 - 2012-08-24 06:35:16 UTC
Hrett wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:


requiring that you have to shoot npc does not fix anything really. It may mean that some of the current farmers can not do plexes, but nothing else does not change. No one is still going to hunt those down and farmers will not pvp any more than now.

CCP managed to create reason to attack, now they should create reason to defend. Docking denial is not working enough, and flip flopping systems is just result of PVE wihtout PVE, and has nothing to do with PVP.


But the gunless frig farmers don't fight anyway. Making it so they have to kill rats will either run all of them off, or make some of them fly real ships that we can shoot. It will make people that already DO fight fly bigger ships more often, giving us a wider variety of targets.

Running off the gunless frigs is a good thing. It reduces the speed of arbitrary system flipping, and increases the relative value of the LP for the people that do fight. We won't lose targets over it though, because those guys aren't really targets now.

I do agree that some incentive for defending would be good, but that needs some thought. It is just as abuseable as the current system. Don't nerf the rewards - just make it so there is some risk to get them.


No one is going to bring his main to plex ever, plexing with alts is fine because then you can focus PVP with your main in FW or in 0.0.

Why people are complaining about alts is that when they chase those off they do not get anything, they are just wasting time. But if you give some reward example taking defend plex they atleast get something.

NPC is not a solution, players should prevent you from getting LP/isk.

Anyway i am against all isk grinding in FW, FW was fine before LP shop got boost, there was only those who wanted to pvp.

But i can see lot of reasons why CCP want to boost FW as isk printing machine, sad thing is that FW gets not better for us who want to pvp.

I do kill farmers every day but i do not think that as pvp as its best.
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#24 - 2012-08-24 09:43:21 UTC
Interesting perspective. I'd argue, however, that on the Amarr/Caldari front, stage 4 has already been reached, which is farm tier 5 Minmatar on an alt, make bank, and pew.

The moar you cry the less you pee
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#25 - 2012-08-24 20:49:51 UTC
Cearain wrote:

Its not true that "The only way to completely push farmers out of plexes is to reduce rewards to a level that makes it not worth their time." The rewards can stay the same but the risks/costs from the associated pvp can increase and therefor make it not worth a farmers time. This is what should happen.

How can we increase the likeliehood that players will attack plexers?



Take out the rewards for PvE, and increase the rewards for PvP. IE-Much less LP for plexing, much more for getting on KMs.
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#26 - 2012-08-29 15:47:14 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
No one is going to bring his main to plex ever, plexing with alts is fine because then you can focus PVP with your main in FW or in 0.0.


Looks like I am the exception from this rule. I only plex and PVP with my main... why? Because sometimes you get a (fair) fight or you get at least some excitement and I don't play the game for farming LP. People who are only grinding LP with their gun-less alts are just stupid or don't have a job in RL. This is a game, you should play it for the fun and not for doing "work". And by the way if you just orbiting the damn button without shooting the rats you are missing also a lot of ISK which you can easily make from the dropped tags and sometimes also nice meta-4 modules.

This is just mine opinion... let everybody do what he feels he needs to do.
Dan Carter Murray
#27 - 2012-08-29 16:44:45 UTC
Meditril wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
No one is going to bring his main to plex ever, plexing with alts is fine because then you can focus PVP with your main in FW or in 0.0.


Looks like I am the exception from this rule. I only plex and PVP with my main... why? Because sometimes you get a (fair) fight or you get at least some excitement and I don't play the game for farming LP. People who are only grinding LP with their gun-less alts are just stupid or don't have a job in RL. This is a game, you should play it for the fun and not for doing "work". And by the way if you just orbiting the damn button without shooting the rats you are missing also a lot of ISK which you can easily make from the dropped tags and sometimes also nice meta-4 modules.

This is just mine opinion... let everybody do what he feels he needs to do.


damnit he's right...

IIRC:
minor plexes you can get like 1 mil max in tags.
medium plexes you can get 3-5 mil in tags.
major plexes you can get around 10-15mil in tags.
this all excludes loot like meta 4 items.
someone can fix the #s if they are off that's just what i remember.

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com
Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-08-29 23:31:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Squatdog
Bad Messenger wrote:


No one is going to bring his main to plex ever, plexing with alts is fine because then you can focus PVP with your main in FW or in 0.0.

Why people are complaining about alts is that when they chase those off they do not get anything, they are just wasting time. But if you give some reward example taking defend plex they atleast get something.

NPC is not a solution, players should prevent you from getting LP/isk.


A lot of people plex with their mains. Especially in high traffic areas and staging systems, where they'll get fights.

NPCs that actually work are the solution and will eliminate the endless swarms of week-old unarmed Incursus alts.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2012-08-30 03:42:54 UTC
Squatdog wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:


No one is going to bring his main to plex ever, plexing with alts is fine because then you can focus PVP with your main in FW or in 0.0.

Why people are complaining about alts is that when they chase those off they do not get anything, they are just wasting time. But if you give some reward example taking defend plex they atleast get something.

NPC is not a solution, players should prevent you from getting LP/isk.


A lot of people plex with their mains. Especially in high traffic areas and staging systems, where they'll get fights.

NPCs that actually work are the solution and will eliminate the endless swarms of week-old unarmed Incursus alts.


Exactly. I only plex and fight on this character.

Fixing NPCs requires people to bring real pilots in real ships with real guns and be at real keyboards. This will equal more fights.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#30 - 2012-09-04 16:51:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Bumping this thread as ccp starts to scrap everything and replace it with an even worse system.

More confounding variables.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-09-04 16:58:17 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Bumping this thread as ccp starts to scrap everything and replace it with an even worse system.

More confounding variables.


Yeah. I'm not going to complain that CCP is making changes - but I find it curious that they are making such drastic ones.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
BolsterBomb
Perkone
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-09-04 17:09:57 UTC
Interesting post. I belive though we have entered the final stage of that curve and here is why:

The Devs have the perfect scenarios, one side dominates another, an even FW space, 00 entities enter, market being bombed by a particular faction, plexing and system control and more.

I think people have accepted the FW changes and now are saying ok, here's what would make thinks better/fixed.

Brig General of The Caldari State

"Don" Bolsterbomb

Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#33 - 2012-09-04 17:30:23 UTC
Hrett wrote:
Yeah. I'm not going to complain that CCP is making changes - but I find it curious that they are making such drastic ones.

They are implementing only what many have asked for, just not in the way we envisioned it.

Balance NPCs? Done.
Kill farming? Done.
Rewards for defensive plexing? Done.
T1 frig-only plex? Done
Move LP bonus from store to plexes. Done.
Move timer closer to warp in. Done.

etc....

They will listen to feedback and go from there.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#34 - 2012-09-04 17:36:10 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Hrett wrote:
Yeah. I'm not going to complain that CCP is making changes - but I find it curious that they are making such drastic ones.

They are implementing only what many have asked for, just not in the way we envisioned it.

Balance NPCs? Done.
Kill farming? Done.
Rewards for defensive plexing? Done.
T1 frig-only plex? Done
Move LP bonus from store to plexes. Done.
Move timer closer to warp in. Done.

etc....

They will listen to feedback and go from there.




How does this kill farming?


As for the rest I think all the ideas you list were controversial at best.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Ramon Sohei
The Florez Law Firm
#35 - 2012-09-04 17:50:02 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Hrett wrote:
Yeah. I'm not going to complain that CCP is making changes - but I find it curious that they are making such drastic ones.

They are implementing only what many have asked for, just not in the way we envisioned it.

Balance NPCs? Done.
Kill farming? Done.
Rewards for defensive plexing? Done.
T1 frig-only plex? Done
Move LP bonus from store to plexes. Done.
Move timer closer to warp in. Done.

etc....

They will listen to feedback and go from there.




I think they also nerfed the rank progression since the last update. I noticed halfway in my rank it takes now 2-3 more missions to make the same amount of points. This was something Ank(whateverherlongname) from and old CSM requested since she got to general in a week's time. Then decided to collect all 4 general titles in FW.
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