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So you don't like the FW system-Lets pretend to be devs!

Author
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#41 - 2012-08-22 13:04:54 UTC
Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:
Some basic tweaks to the plex/LP system.

Offensive plexes no longer increase contested level or give LP once a system is vulnerable so in all cases, 1 defensive plex will take it below 100% contested and there's no point in holding it vulnerable indefinitely


Only if they fix plexing first. That is make it so it is not glorified carebearing.


Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:

Give defensive plexing a small LP reward, smaller than offensive plexing. Virtually no one bothers to defensive plex given the ease of letting a system fall then farming LP while you flip it back. If there was some reward to it, it might become popular again.



Why do we want to make defensive plexing popular? There are several good reason defensive plexing gives no rewards in terms of balance and generating pvp. Rewarding defensive plexing does the opposite.

Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:

Restrict plex-spawning to "front line" constellations. At the moment it's way too easy for plexing alts to set up in low traffic backwater systems and go to work without anyone stopping them. If plexes only spawned in active regions (starting with the default amarr/minmatar setup this would mean compressing plexing activities into the kourm-kam-lamaa, ezzara-tzvi and auga-dal-siseide areas initially. Conquest of all or a significant number of these systems would open up plex spawning in connected constellations (so the tararan-roushzar, gulm/bosboger and hofjaldgund-frerstorn pipes). Couple this with the current lockout mechanism and you have an almost realistic battlefront. Force the enemy to retreat behind a tangible line and deny them access to resources and trade routes (minmatar getting booted out of Hed constellation would make supplying from rens trickier for example).


If you want blob wins then null sec is available. A big advantage of current FW is the smaller side can force the enemy blob to split up.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#42 - 2012-08-22 13:34:06 UTC
small plex, one button, medium two buttons (requires a person on each to tick the timer), large 3 timers (requires a person on each to tick the timer).

add second gate into plex 200km from the first, a "back door" as an alternative way in and might not have 30 guys on it waiting for you.

leave rats easy, hard rats make for blobs,

better LP for pvp thats not exploitable,

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.

Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
#43 - 2012-08-22 13:47:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Christine Peeveepeeski
LP changes-

1/4 LP for plexes unless an enemy is in the zone of influence,

Double LP for kills of the enemy militias ships.

Farmers can now farm missions and not effect the FWness of it all and the pvpers can now do the whole winning a war thing and actually win it themselves and no losing was because of other pvpers doing the job.

Plex mechanic changes-

minors do .2 system control, mediums .5 and majors 1.0.
Only frigates can cap a minor, cruisers for a medium and battlecruisers for majors. Other ships can get Lp but can't count the timer down.

Just a brain fart but it would drive the right behaviours, or at least better behaviour patterns than now.
Shaalira D'arc
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2012-08-22 13:47:39 UTC
1. No LP gain for plexing above 100%. The 'buffer' above 100% stops at 105%, making it feasible to deplex.
2. 1/2 LP for defensive plexing. No LP for defensive plexing a Stable system.
3. Locking out the opposing militia becomes a System Upgrade.
4. Balance NPCs. The easy fix would be replacing all NPC launchers with turrets.
5. Add a starmap function to show systems currently being plexed.
6. Leaving the button causes the timer to count down, quickly. If no players are left on grid, the timer resets completely.
7. System upgrades are now 'hardier' and more resistant to deplexing. Industrial slots are replaced with something more useful, like increased industry speed.
8. Rebalance LP stores to make them equally appealing.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#45 - 2012-08-22 14:11:47 UTC
Shaalira D'arc wrote:
1. No LP gain for plexing above 100%. The 'buffer' above 100% stops at 105%, making it feasible to deplex.
2. 1/2 LP for defensive plexing. No LP for defensive plexing a Stable system.
3. Locking out the opposing militia becomes a System Upgrade.
4. Balance NPCs. The easy fix would be replacing all NPC launchers with turrets.
5. Add a starmap function to show systems currently being plexed.
6. Leaving the button causes the timer to count down, quickly. If no players are left on grid, the timer resets completely.
7. System upgrades are now 'hardier' and more resistant to deplexing. Industrial slots are replaced with something more useful, like increased industry speed.
8. Rebalance LP stores to make them equally appealing.


CCP is not going to implement this kind of nerf, main reason why cpp boosted lowsec farming is that it is hidden nerf for highsec mission income by lowering income from lp store items.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-08-22 14:26:39 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:


CCP is not going to implement this kind of nerf, main reason why cpp boosted lowsec farming is that it is hidden nerf for highsec mission income by lowering income from lp store items.


well thats working great isnt it.... ?

ALLLL those people out of high sec.... working like a charm, oh wait no they are all their its just more alts in low sec from null bears that cant probe sites

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.

Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#47 - 2012-08-22 14:49:49 UTC
they will not change it, because it will require some egos in CCP and CSM to swallow the fact they failed ....

.... so we dont care, working as inteded, logs shows no problems ...
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#48 - 2012-08-22 15:19:40 UTC
David Devant wrote:

Plexing Proposal:

FW plexs spawn in hostile space. They degrade the level of occupancy without player intervention. When occupancy degrades to 25% systems are at full scale war and plexs from opposing factions start to spawn equally within a system. This troubled equilibrium is the natural state of the war zone prior to intervention.


When a player intervenes in a plex to halt incursion they help to solidify the occupying militia's strength. This yields benefits. What do they get? They do not get lp. They do not personally get anything that the rats haven't dropped. Instead, their corp gets victory points for that specific system. If the corp intervenes sufficiently to secure occupancy they get the right to levy taxes upon that system's population. Thus FW plexing does nothing for your personal wallet, it is instead a strategic aim to strengthen corp and alliance backbone. 

Plexing Mechanics:

1.  Plex spawning times as they are at present would require too much effort in maintaining occupancy and would have to be reduced.
2. Plexs are stupid at present. I would propose that they look something like DED sites. You get in and have to destroy npc ships and then have to take down a hostile installation. This should take something close to the present time necessary to cap a plex. Once the initial spawn is dead the playing field should be reasonably even for 1v1 combat.
3. I like the idea of navy commander spawns as a slight player incentive, not really worth it for farmers but a nice gift to reward effort.  
4. In terms of taxation, hostile space should yield greater taxes. There would also be variation between systems due to differing populations. Under the proposed conditions much of FW space would be in chaos as it is hard for a corp to maintain occupancy over multiple systems. This is fine.
5. Full occupancy allows perks such as a cyno jammer, dock blocking, manufacturing slots etc. These perks degrade as occupancy degrades.

FW Missions:

LvL4 missions should not be an isk faucet for null bear alts with no interest in the war. They should be really hard and give really good rewards for team play. My proposal is that they should require you to roll a sizeable pvp force in to hostile space and should be risky. If successfully completed the destruction of hostile targets should make an impact on the hostile war effort via system occupancy. I.e. lvl4 Amarr Navy Munitions Works, Minmatar Secret Service Renditions Facility. Rewards will be greater for attacks on fully militarised systems. Lvl5 missions should be introduced which are ungated and allow capital ships. Opportunities for shiny ganks ahoy! 

Lower missions classes should be soloable but pretty difficult still. Not really worth it as an activity for experienced players but a good isk source for noobies.

Tiers:

Get rid. The prize for greater occupancy is corp funding via taxation. In terms of isk, plexs and missions should reward either side equally. Additional rewards in terms of occupancy will depend on the dynamics of the war zone.  The returns should still be very good but would require substantial commitment of assets from waring parties.


I like most your points, although Im confused on the first part? It seems most systems would simply fall into a base status of 'at war'. So what would be the point of creating a mechanic when you could just place all systems 'at war'? I think if they make missions only spawn in hostile non-controlled systems, you won't find people trying to solo those missions. And lastely, what would make people want to shoot other people in all this? It looks as though it still rewards PvE and not PvP.
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#49 - 2012-08-22 15:50:53 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
Without rats, ppl would just cloak up. Farmers would still farm.
Rats keep you targeted, and they add suport for the faction that actually owns the system, as they should.

I want the solo frigate speed tank stuff to go away. So I like the 'kill all rats' solution.
Add web rats


Find a solution for Leach Alts, such as:
AI (artificial intelligence) timers perhaps.
or
First person in can 'claim' the plex and all others must be fleeted. Then add severe penalties for awoxing.
Personal time in a plex has a 'no longer present' counter. similar to GCC or aggresion timers. If you leave, the timer starts.
or
Most applied DPS gets the LP. Similar to Incursion payouts.
or
Split is % based.
etc.

People need ISK. I like the payout scale just fine, I just don't like the loopholes/exploits.


FW is not for ISK. FW is for PvP. Being able to make enough to supplement PvP is fine. Mechanics that make people PvP to protect this income is fine. Joining FW to make 'phat loot' is not. So I'm not really in favor of "I do PvE in FW as a means to make isk to PvP elsewhere" is to be avoided. "I PvP in FW and I make some isk doing it." is to be encouraged.

So i really wanna move away from "Orbit button, receive LP, repeat over and over".
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#50 - 2012-08-22 16:10:49 UTC
Dan Carter Murray wrote:

1.I don't like the 15 minutes to cash out system. Tier i think would be better to be solely based on the # of systems.
2Lp store back to pre inferno for tier 1. Scale down prices for increased tiers.
3System upgrades only for adding perks to the system such as industry slots, cheaper tax, no docking, cyno jammers, and lower repair costs (examples). Other ideas could be the anchoring or making gate guns station guns do increased damage.
4I would like to see that ANYONE except opposing militia can donate lp to hub (based on above).
5I do like the"unique" lp store items idea. I don't know which items would be best or new items.
6No missions in home systems.
7I disagree with resetting timer when warping out of plexes IF all rats must die.
8I think all rats should die, but I agree with x gal that the dps is lowered, but the tank should stay the same imo.
9I would like to see diminishing marginal returns for lp in combat to encourage sub blob man fleets (not cheap shotting LNA/IO) maybe have sub 5 man KMs pay the most.
10I like infinite vulnerability to secure ihub bash and I like the 110% cap that was mentioned.
11Defensive plexing should pay 1/10 of offensive plexing.
12Slight lp modifier based on rank (i.e 1.01 up to 1.10 for highest rank)
13Lp can be donated to decontest. This should be an absurdly expensive investment such as 100,00 lp per %
14Absolutely no mails if someone opens a plex. Undock to find out.
15no gcc for attacking neutrals who enter plexes


1-I am of the opinion that militia wide tier should be kinda hard to get past 2 or 3, and should fluctuate often. basing it on systems controlled could lead to T5 being a 'normal' thing.

4-Having non-WT influence a FW system mechanic is bad practice i think.
9-This is in place already, rewards are divided. 800 LP split 20 ways is not much.
10-IIn my proposal if the 'hub' has no LP in it, your just O plexing for nothing. i don't think the issue will remain.
11-I don't like PvE actions that effect the 'war' being a limitless supply of LP for an individual no matter the return.
12-I like this, but In my proposal Im not sure how to integrate it.
15-To GCC or not is a decision everyone makes. While i know it encourages meta gamming, its a part of the game.

If I didn't say anything to a point it because your disagreeing with someone else, or I had no comment.

RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#51 - 2012-08-22 16:38:15 UTC  |  Edited by: RavenPaine
Ezra Tair wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:
Without rats, ppl would just cloak up. Farmers would still farm.
Rats keep you targeted, and they add suport for the faction that actually owns the system, as they should.

I want the solo frigate speed tank stuff to go away. So I like the 'kill all rats' solution.
Add web rats


Find a solution for Leach Alts, such as:
AI (artificial intelligence) timers perhaps.
or
First person in can 'claim' the plex and all others must be fleeted. Then add severe penalties for awoxing.
Personal time in a plex has a 'no longer present' counter. similar to GCC or aggresion timers. If you leave, the timer starts.
or
Most applied DPS gets the LP. Similar to Incursion payouts.
or
Split is % based.
etc.

People need ISK. I like the payout scale just fine, I just don't like the loopholes/exploits.


FW is not for ISK. FW is for PvP. Being able to make enough to supplement PvP is fine. Mechanics that make people PvP to protect this income is fine. Joining FW to make 'phat loot' is not. So I'm not really in favor of "I do PvE in FW as a means to make isk to PvP elsewhere" is to be avoided. "I PvP in FW and I make some isk doing it." is to be encouraged.

So i really wanna move away from "Orbit button, receive LP, repeat over and over".


Forum ate my reply :( grr.

Yes FW is for PvP.
In my oppinion, the goal in FW is full immersion of the player.
That means, his Main, his second account, most of his alts.
What I DON'T want, is for him to have to get his ISK 'somewhere else'.

One of the dissapointing features of FW is the trend towards Frigate warfare.
Yes they are fun, fast, dangerous, etc.
Yes they require skills.
BUT:
The trend in general dosen't promote any 'next level PvP'.
If a player wants to go to the next level, he starts thinking about moving on.

I like that Veteran players can come into FW, AND they can make the ISK they are accustomed to from other area's of EVE.
The ISK here will promote veteran membership, and the Frigate guy's won't have the "I'm too poor" excuse when it comes time to ship up.
The ISK here can support BC, BS, and Capital engagements. Yet the mechanics of FW will let very small corps esperience that.
Without good ISK available, players that want this will have to go elsewhere.
Without "Phat Loot", there will never be any "Phat Phleets"
I want FW members to feel like every opportunity for growth is right here.

I do not like farm alts, and all the negative things they cause. Taking available buttons, diluting the market, awoxing, leaching, spying, etc.
I hope I never implied that.
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#52 - 2012-08-22 16:54:04 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:


Forum ate my reply :( grr.


Go to edit it, and a small box appears at the bottom. I think you can use it to retrieve the older post. I Alt+A and alt+c my posts before I hit the button. because the forums suck at simple things.
Pink Marshmellow
Caucasian Culture Club
#53 - 2012-08-22 17:39:48 UTC
Structure bashing.
Dan Carter Murray
#54 - 2012-08-22 19:51:16 UTC
Ezra Tair wrote:
Dan Carter Murray wrote:

1.I don't like the 15 minutes to cash out system. Tier i think would be better to be solely based on the # of systems.
2Lp store back to pre inferno for tier 1. Scale down prices for increased tiers.
3System upgrades only for adding perks to the system such as industry slots, cheaper tax, no docking, cyno jammers, and lower repair costs (examples). Other ideas could be the anchoring or making gate guns station guns do increased damage.
4I would like to see that ANYONE except opposing militia can donate lp to hub (based on above).
5I do like the"unique" lp store items idea. I don't know which items would be best or new items.
6No missions in home systems.
7I disagree with resetting timer when warping out of plexes IF all rats must die.
8I think all rats should die, but I agree with x gal that the dps is lowered, but the tank should stay the same imo.
9I would like to see diminishing marginal returns for lp in combat to encourage sub blob man fleets (not cheap shotting LNA/IO) maybe have sub 5 man KMs pay the most.
10I like infinite vulnerability to secure ihub bash and I like the 110% cap that was mentioned.
11Defensive plexing should pay 1/10 of offensive plexing.
12Slight lp modifier based on rank (i.e 1.01 up to 1.10 for highest rank)
13Lp can be donated to decontest. This should be an absurdly expensive investment such as 100,00 lp per %
14Absolutely no mails if someone opens a plex. Undock to find out.
15no gcc for attacking neutrals who enter plexes


1-I am of the opinion that militia wide tier should be kinda hard to get past 2 or 3, and should fluctuate often. basing it on systems controlled could lead to T5 being a 'normal' thing.

4-Having non-WT influence a FW system mechanic is bad practice i think.
9-This is in place already, rewards are divided. 800 LP split 20 ways is not much.
10-IIn my proposal if the 'hub' has no LP in it, your just O plexing for nothing. i don't think the issue will remain.
11-I don't like PvE actions that effect the 'war' being a limitless supply of LP for an individual no matter the return.
12-I like this, but In my proposal Im not sure how to integrate it.
15-To GCC or not is a decision everyone makes. While i know it encourages meta gamming, its a part of the game.

If I didn't say anything to a point it because your disagreeing with someone else, or I had no comment.



continuing to remain in non-pissing everyone off mode again (this is hard btw)...

1- i don't mind if a militia gets perma t5 if they control all the systems.
4- it's based on #3 and since most FW players could care less about taxes/mfg slots and things like that i dont' mind having people be able to donate because this is "supposed" to bring more neutrals like industrialists to lowsec as far as i know
9- i'm talking about a penalty though. so my example is 10,000 LP for 5 people is 2,000 each, but for a 6 people it's less than 1667 LP. it's penalized with more people. so for a 20man fleet the 10,000LP is distributed to each person as 125 LP instead of 500 LP or something like that
10- 110% vuln is for buffer to have time to get fleet to bash bunker
11- i've had a lot of pvp defensive plexing, but then again, i like keeping systems

12- easy to integrate because the code is already written which calculates how much LP a person gets. so instead of the code saying simply "give player x lp" the programmers can simply add another line that says "give player x*rank_modifier lp". I can code this for them if they want...programming isn't hard. it's what i do.

15- sometimes i can't wait until i'm scrammed to attack someone, and entering a plex is an offensive action. hell just give me aggression instead of gcc.

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com

Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2012-08-23 01:14:19 UTC
remove FW plexes and all PVE that has to do with FW

to capture a station you must take the system, to do that you must take the system. Each system will have 10 nodes that must be captured and held for 15 minutes capturing a node is as simple as going to the area and being withing 30km of the node.
as soon 1 node is taken the FW members in that system is notified where and how many people are near the node. after 5 are taken every FW member knows that the system is under attack and how many enemy FW members are in that system.

after the nodes are taking the station is vulnerable and can be taken when the attacking team remains around (say within 30km) the station for 25 minutes (cannot be cloaked)


this can coincide with a free ship idea someone had in F&I. Free ships would actually be benificial. untradable FW ships depending on your rank would be given, you could only get 1 of each FW ship and leaving FW would make you lose said ship ( it would be impounded).
the FW ships would be the same in every way to their navy equivalents, so amarr navy members would start with the FW slicer, and as their rank improves FW omen and so on.
* please use common sense with this, of course you could not insure or trade these ships it wouldn't cause a problem I am just not typing out all the situations as any common sense person could figure it out*


so
+FW will be 100% pvp
+ FW members will get some free ships, meaning less risk while pvping
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#56 - 2012-08-23 01:15:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Milton Middleson
Consider removing or seriously nerfing the rewards for offensive plexing, and moving the majority of the spoils of victory to PvP kills and having space. That way, the biggest rewards coming from holding space and taking the best defended systems (why would you get paid for taking an undefended system, anyway?). I'm not sure what I would do to replace the income from plexing, but the goal here is to move the farming alts out the occupancy war (regardless of whether or not they're significantly impacting the warzone compared to serious players, they're a distraction and annoyance). Also consider replacing the rats with a need to "push" the button by doing a certain (reasonable) amount of damage to it before the timer will start running.

Rework warzone control LP store scaling so that t1 is what t3 is now, and each additional tier is -20% off the baseline prices.

A dream: make a level V system upgrade that allows the occupying militia to aggress on neutrals without GCC or sec status hit. Pirate

edit: add a constellation-wide intel channel for each constellation in a militia's home warzone. Distress calls from friendly plexes in constellation are broadcast here.
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
#57 - 2012-08-23 12:28:42 UTC
Let's make highsec systems neighbouring the warzone flippable aswell :)

We want tuomuta and otelen to add to our little collection dammit

Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
#58 - 2012-08-23 12:29:09 UTC
Not mehatoor though, that's got a stupid name and no one ever goes there
Yuri Intaki
Nasranite Watch
#59 - 2012-08-23 12:56:57 UTC
Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:
Let's make highsec systems neighbouring the warzone flippable aswell :)

We want tuomuta and otelen to add to our little collection dammit



You think you are clever but sadly, this has been done already. And you guessed it, by Caldari Lol
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