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So you don't like the FW system-Lets pretend to be devs!
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Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-08-21 18:25:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Ezra Tair
Here, lets try out hand at pretending to be developers, and comment on and suggest changes to the current FW LP/SOV mechanic. Some folks have some reasonable issue aginst the current mechanic, and so lets look at it and possible changes to it we think would make it a fair and equatable system that encourages fighting in space and less forum pvp. I'd wager the easier the changes are to implement, the more likely an actual Dev might take not. It helps that its good as well. if our Rep, Mrs Hans wishes to upchannel this, awesome.

********I'd like to stress not repeating ideas if I have it posted already, and not generating ideas that require a possibly large re-write to code. Think small tweaks to existing mechanics!!************


My idea is as follows.

"EZ's Thought"

-The plex system does not change. (orbit buttons, sizes, and spawning)
-LP for offensive plexing is awarded only if the system is upgraded, and only until the LP in the 'hub' is gone. So if the system is not upgraded, it does nothing but contest the system.
-Militia wide tier only affects LP earned though PvP kills. Higher it is, the more you get for PvP kills. (With a check to prevent abuse)
-The LP store is changed back to pre-Inferno values(or some static value), so keeping a high militia wide tier is not about spiking it for an hour.
-The system 'level' bought with donating LP to the Hub effects the system as a fucntion of its level.
IE- at level zero nothing changes, level one plexes take longer to countdown, level two the opposing militia cannot use station services, at level 3 they cannot some more station services, at level 4 they cannot dock, and level 5 they cannot anchor new objects (like a pos or can).



The idea I've roughly drawn is that LP is generated anew though combat, moved between players via offensive plexiing, and probably only spent in hubs in system where you want some strategic advantage and are willing to defend it. The negative effect for the other militia is a slow moving cumulative action that can offensively plexed down without nessasarly plexing down ALL of it or flipping the system. It might hinder gross "LP whoring", and reward PvP activity, while making the sov'ish mechanic of plexes matter to those that car enough to do it. It leave the system though the LP store as normal.



If you have some idea that modify that, please contribute, or if you have another idea elaborate on it. I can update this and a reserve post as needed to keep the most current proposals visible.
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-08-21 18:26:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Ezra Tair
A reserve post to hold other ideas.

No mission in your currently owned systems. <--- CCP CSM minutes reported by X Gal

Defencive plexing does not give lp, but it adds some lp to system upgrade.<--BM

Also make it so that you can not upgrade vulnerable systems<--BM

Let us know where and what types of plexes are being attacked. <--Cearain

small plex, one button, medium two buttons (requires a person on each to tick the timer), large 3 timers (requires a person on each to tick the timer). -Maud

add second gate into plex 200km from the first, a "back door" as an alternative way in and might not have 30 guys on it waiting for you. -maud

1/4 LP for plexes unless an enemy is in the zone of influence,-Christine Peeveepeeski
(Define zone of influence)

Double LP for kills of the enemy militias ships.-Christine Peeveepeeski
(I think my proposal covers this)

Farmers can now farm missions and not effect the FWness of it all and the pvpers can now do the whole winning a war thing and actually win it themselves and no losing was because of other pvpers doing the job.-Christine Peeveepeeski
(I think my proposal covers this)

minors do .2 system control, mediums .5 and majors 1.0.-Christine Peeveepeeski

Only frigates can cap a minor, cruisers for a medium and battlecruisers for majors. Other ships can get Lp but can't count the timer down.-Christine Peeveepeeski
(I think this would require a completely new mechanic, so not to keen on it)

1No LP gain for plexing above 100%. The 'buffer' above 100% stops at 105%, making it feasible to deplex.-Shaalira D'arc
(I think my proposal covers this)
21/2 LP for defensive plexing. No LP for defensive plexing a Stable system.-
(I think this encourages defensive plexing for sure, but rewards avoiding PvP)
3Locking out the opposing militia becomes a System Upgrade.-Shaalira D'arc
(A possible upgrade I mentioned)
Balance NPCs. The easy fix would be replacing all NPC launchers with turrets.-Shaalira D'arc
Add a starmap function to show systems currently being plexed.-Shaalira D'arc
Leaving the button causes the timer to count down, quickly. If no players are left on grid, the timer resets completely.-Shaalira D'arc
System upgrades are now 'hardier' and more resistant to deplexing. Industrial slots are replaced with something more useful, like increased industry speed.-Shaalira D'arc
(I think I address this as a possible system upgrade)
Rebalance LP stores to make them equally appealing.-Shaalira D'arc


System upgrades only for adding perks to the system such as industry slots, cheaper tax, no docking, cyno jammers, and lower repair costs (examples). Other ideas could be the anchoring or making gate guns station guns do increased damage.-Dan Carter Murray

I would like to see that ANYONE except opposing militia can donate lp to hub (based on above).-Dan Carter Murray


Slight lp modifier based on rank (i.e 1.01 up to 1.10 for highest rank)-Dan Carter Murray
Salicaz
Verrimus Caelum
#3 - 2012-08-21 18:35:30 UTC
"We don't care, stop complaining and enjoy your null lite! We want higher population in low sec and ******* over a poorly implemented, bugged to high hell, old as feck feature was the way to do it.

STFU, HTFU, GTFO!."

How did i do?
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#4 - 2012-08-21 18:36:11 UTC
Required:
1. Kill all rats in plex <--- Everybody and his brother
2. Timer countdown to 0 if nobody is in plex <--- Juius Foederatus/Super Chair

Optional:
3. No rewards for plexing systems above 110% <--- Many people.
4. No mission in your currently owned systems. <--- CCP CSM minutes

See what happens. Whine about people abusing your isk source for another 6 months.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#5 - 2012-08-21 18:41:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Bad Messenger
1. lowered lp gain on vulnerable systems

2. defencive plexing does not give lp, but it adds some lp to system upgrade.

edit: also make it so that you can not upgrade vulnerable systems
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#6 - 2012-08-21 18:45:01 UTC
With all the hot air posts about changing the just changed FW game play I'm going to start a balloon race.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
BolsterBomb
Perkone
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-08-21 19:00:57 UTC  |  Edited by: BolsterBomb
X Gallentius wrote:
Required:
1. Kill all rats in plex <--- Everybody and his brother
2. Timer countdown to 0 if nobody is in plex <--- Juius Foederatus/Super Chair

Optional:
3. No rewards for plexing systems above 110% <--- Many people.
4. No mission in your currently owned systems. <--- CCP CSM minutes

See what happens. Whine about people abusing your isk source for another 6 months.



1) I am a proponent for removing rats from ALL plexes. The reason is simple. CCP intended the plexing to be pvp not pve, the rats discourage pvp. I cant fight people that come in with full rat agro. So I have to leave the plex to fight them.

Why should I be restricted to use higher hulkls (cruisers,etc) when my enemy can come in whatever he wants. Forcing me to kill rats is simply pve.

An diea that needs some tweaking is make the minors take LONGER then the higher plexes and restrict the plxes to hull sizes (not this and below) but a range of type of hulls, that way the farmers will spend longer to cap plexes and the higher plexes yield better LP and provide for real pilots not farmers.


2) Make a vulnerable "deep number" that after that yields NO lp but furthers the contestant.

3) I think the FW store needs to have exclusive items, that way losers "can" make money but not "isk printing machines"

4) System upgrades need to mean something - and this is the big problem, no one cares about upgrading systems and I am not sure what would matter.

Brig General of The Caldari State

"Don" Bolsterbomb

Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#8 - 2012-08-21 19:05:17 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
BolsterBomb wrote:

I am a proponent for removing rats from plexes. The reason is simple. CCP intended the plexing to be pvp not pve, the rats discourage pvp. I cant fight people that come in with full rat agro. So I have to leave the plex to fight them.
I guess I will add:

5. Rats should have appropriately sized tank for the plex with very little dps. <---- XG
This will allow for more fights in plexes, but coupled with "kill all rats requirement" will encourage Bolsterbomb to run large plexes in ships other than WCS'd Merlins.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#9 - 2012-08-21 19:21:04 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
BolsterBomb wrote:

I am a proponent for removing rats from plexes. The reason is simple. CCP intended the plexing to be pvp not pve, the rats discourage pvp. I cant fight people that come in with full rat agro. So I have to leave the plex to fight them.
I guess I will add:

5. Rats should have appropriately sized tank for the plex with very little dps. <---- XG
This will allow for more fights in plexes, but coupled with "kill all rats requirement" will encourage Bolsterbomb to run large plexes in ships other than WCS'd Merlins.


why not remove rats and put some SBU which you have to shoot with blob.
BolsterBomb
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-08-21 19:29:11 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
BolsterBomb wrote:

I am a proponent for removing rats from plexes. The reason is simple. CCP intended the plexing to be pvp not pve, the rats discourage pvp. I cant fight people that come in with full rat agro. So I have to leave the plex to fight them.
I guess I will add:

5. Rats should have appropriately sized tank for the plex with very little dps. <---- XG
This will allow for more fights in plexes, but coupled with "kill all rats requirement" will encourage Bolsterbomb to run large plexes in ships other than WCS'd Merlins.



why do you have to go there. Seriously can you not have an educated conversation? Find one KM with a gunless ship or warp core stabs.

If you look at my killboard you will see tons of t1 kills of me killing them inside and around pelxes.

If you wanna be a douche go to another thread keep one friken thread for crying out loud free form stupid drama

Brig General of The Caldari State

"Don" Bolsterbomb

Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation
Generals4
#11 - 2012-08-21 19:45:22 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:


why not remove rats and put some SBU which you have to shoot with blob.


I'm horrible at EVE acronyms but this is just a structure, right?

If so i strongly agree with this suggestions. It would not only encourage PVP in plex's but also ensure people at least need some dps to get a plex. And since the plex gets capped sooner if more dps is applied using stabs becomes a whole lot less attractive.

_-Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. _
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#12 - 2012-08-21 19:49:29 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Bad Messenger wrote:
why not remove rats and put some SBU which you have to shoot with blob.

Maybe, the issue would be how long the blob has to stay in plex - until SBU is down, or until timer is up, or both? Would have to think about how blitzing plexes would affect everything. Also in consideration: Tags and loot would be removed from plexes.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#13 - 2012-08-21 20:13:12 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
BolsterBomb wrote:
why do you have to go there.

Sorry, you're on record saying that currnt plexing mechanics are fine and that you want easy farming to fund pvp. But I didn't need to call you out in the post, so I apologize.
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-08-21 21:50:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Ezra Tair
BolsterBomb wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Required:
1. Kill all rats in plex <--- Everybody and his brother
2. Timer countdown to 0 if nobody is in plex <--- Juius Foederatus/Super Chair

Optional:
3. No rewards for plexing systems above 110% <--- Many people.
4. No mission in your currently owned systems. <--- CCP CSM minutes

See what happens. Whine about people abusing your isk source for another 6 months.



1) I am a proponent for removing rats from ALL plexes. The reason is simple. CCP intended the plexing to be pvp not pve, the rats discourage pvp. I cant fight people that come in with full rat agro. So I have to leave the plex to fight them.

Why should I be restricted to use higher hulkls (cruisers,etc) when my enemy can come in whatever he wants. Forcing me to kill rats is simply pve.

An diea that needs some tweaking is make the minors take LONGER then the higher plexes and restrict the plxes to hull sizes (not this and below) but a range of type of hulls, that way the farmers will spend longer to cap plexes and the higher plexes yield better LP and provide for real pilots not farmers.


2) Make a vulnerable "deep number" that after that yields NO lp but furthers the contestant.

3) I think the FW store needs to have exclusive items, that way losers "can" make money but not "isk printing machines"

4) System upgrades need to mean something - and this is the big problem, no one cares about upgrading systems and I am not sure what would matter.



My issue with the removal of NPCs is that, NPCs or not. Its just a game of "wait here 10/15/20 minutes and collect LP/Standings." NPCs or not. I don't think a requirement to kill npcs is needed. If necessary, you can always change the LP store to require tags for more items that then encourage the death of NPCs.

I don't see any reason why plexing should reward a player with LP, that was not first invested by another player. That gives the other player a stake and a reason to respond to threats, because 'his' LP is at stake. I also think the point is to use LP as a 'carrot' to invite and reward combat, not shooting red crosses, or orbiting structures.

FW does have several exclusive items. A exclusive BS, exclusive implants, cap boosters, and some BPCs. I don't see the need to add more. And adding more does not add to the "get people to pew" incentive.

I agree, and that is why I suggested as such.

X Gallentius wrote:
Required:
1. Kill all rats in plex <--- Everybody and his brother
2. Timer countdown to 0 if nobody is in plex <--- Juius Foederatus/Super Chair

Optional:
3. No rewards for plexing systems above 110% <--- Many people.
4. No mission in your currently owned systems. <--- CCP CSM minutes

See what happens. Whine about people abusing your isk source for another 6 months.


I like #4, i think I covered the other 3.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#15 - 2012-08-21 21:55:10 UTC
Let us know where and what types of plexes are being attacked.

I don't care whether it is on the fw gui, a seperate channel, notifications, or through the map.

Just let us defend systems by pvp instead of just plexing the system back after the enemy runs his plex.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#16 - 2012-08-21 22:00:17 UTC
BolsterBomb wrote:


1) I am a proponent for removing rats from ALL plexes. The reason is simple. CCP intended the plexing to be pvp not pve, the rats discourage pvp. I cant fight people that come in with full rat agro. So I have to leave the plex to fight them.


This really. The rats are just an annoyance that deters pvp.

Let us know where plexes are being attacked and the players can then choose if they want to fight for them. Leaving fw up to the npcs is **** poor.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-08-21 22:10:08 UTC
Cearain wrote:
BolsterBomb wrote:


1) I am a proponent for removing rats from ALL plexes. The reason is simple. CCP intended the plexing to be pvp not pve, the rats discourage pvp. I cant fight people that come in with full rat agro. So I have to leave the plex to fight them.


This really. The rats are just an annoyance that deters pvp.

Let us know where plexes are being attacked and the players can then choose if they want to fight for them. Leaving fw up to the npcs is **** poor.



I had always thought that the presence of NPC invited one player to make a more aggressive move they might not have normally made because of the rats. As in "Well Im in a Merlin, and this thrasher landed. I might have a chance to take him with the NPCs"


My issue with the removal of NPCs is that, if you thought it was easy now, people will just orbit them all the more in gunless and stabbed ships. If you are 'attacking' it should be more difficult to take the place with NPC shooting you and players warping to you. If you can justify it inside a more elaborate concept where it would work, I might buy it.
Suddenly Forums ForumKings
Doomheim
#18 - 2012-08-21 22:17:06 UTC
Make the rats way stronger and give the entire room a stasis webification -99% effect.

So strong that you need a straight up PVE ship with a massive local tank.

I want to see deadspace fit golems as mandatory for tanking and completing the higher tier plexes.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#19 - 2012-08-21 22:18:46 UTC
Ezra Tair wrote:
Cearain wrote:
BolsterBomb wrote:


1) I am a proponent for removing rats from ALL plexes. The reason is simple. CCP intended the plexing to be pvp not pve, the rats discourage pvp. I cant fight people that come in with full rat agro. So I have to leave the plex to fight them.


This really. The rats are just an annoyance that deters pvp.

Let us know where plexes are being attacked and the players can then choose if they want to fight for them. Leaving fw up to the npcs is **** poor.



I had always thought that the presence of NPC invited one player to make a more aggressive move they might not have normally made because of the rats. As in "Well Im in a Merlin, and this thrasher landed. I might have a chance to take him with the NPCs".



You don't know if the rats are in the plex or if they are already dead. At least the way I have my scanner set up I don't. Even if I could set up my scanner to show every npc in there I don't know how much damage each does or how far they are or even if they are aggresed on the enemy (if the wt has high standings they don't even attack him) etc.

Bottom line: Whatever the intent of having npcs in there they do more to ruin chances at pvp than increase them. The minor plexes aren't really an issue the mediums can be an issue if there is a full spawn. But the rats are the main reason I never run majors in anything but a speed tanking frigate.

Ezra Tair wrote:

My issue with the removal of NPCs is that, if you thought it was easy now, people will just orbit them all the more in gunless and stabbed ships. If you are 'attacking' it should be more difficult to take the place with NPC shooting you and players warping to you. If you can justify it inside a more elaborate concept where it would work, I might buy it.


Just let the players know where and what type of plex is being attacked. They can choose to respond and fight for it or they can choose to lose the plex. It's that easy. Leave it to the players.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#20 - 2012-08-21 22:21:36 UTC
Without rats, ppl would just cloak up. Farmers would still farm.
Rats keep you targeted, and they add suport for the faction that actually owns the system, as they should.

I want the solo frigate speed tank stuff to go away. So I like the 'kill all rats' solution.
Add web rats


Find a solution for Leach Alts, such as:
AI (artificial intelligence) timers perhaps.
or
First person in can 'claim' the plex and all others must be fleeted. Then add severe penalties for awoxing.
Personal time in a plex has a 'no longer present' counter. similar to GCC or aggresion timers. If you leave, the timer starts.
or
Most applied DPS gets the LP. Similar to Incursion payouts.
or
Split is % based.
etc.

People need ISK. I like the payout scale just fine, I just don't like the loopholes/exploits.
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