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[Winter] Support Frigates

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Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#301 - 2012-08-21 20:02:56 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:
I would like you to revisit the possibility of having a logi drone based Navitas. While yes it does require more skill points to fly, I would argue that is a good thing. It will be a trade-off that players can make. If they want to fly a pure module based solution then they could chose one of the other races. This will give pilots options and fit well with the drone racial theme.

The problem also relies with the requirements for the T2 version of the logi drones. Currently it requires 1,025,250 SP (yay for having Aura on my phone) to be able to field five T2 logi drones of any size. If you would change the requirement to for lights to be Repair Drone Operation III that would reduce the required skill points to be 281,250 SP. While this is no where near the 24,000 SP to use T2 small remote reps, it is not that much to ask of a new player to train as we are only talking about 4-5 days of training.

I haven't played with the numbers yet (still need a computer and spreadsheet for that) but you could still give the Navitas a range bonus for reps and a bonus to logi drone repair.

Thoughts?


Alright some numbers. If I didn't miss any skills 3 small remote armor reps on the proposed ships would produce 120 hit points per second of rep amount . 3 small remote armor reps unbonused would produce 80 hit points per second. 5 light drones with a 20% per level bonus would repair 35 hitpoints per second. This would leave a difference of 5 hitpoints per second. You could solve this by changing the base repair amount of T2 light drones to be 16 instead of 14. This would make them produce the same rep amount per second. Or tweak the rep cycle vs rep amount.

Please help us battle the homogeneity of these frigates. Seriously 256k requirement is nothing compared to the long train into logistics. Again Drones V will help in every Gallente ship!

I agree, i would like to see the navitas a drone ship (still), but the idea of a drone logi ship would be unique and fun

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Martin0
Brave Empire Inc.
Brave United
#302 - 2012-08-21 20:18:16 UTC
i'm happy i have about 60 navitas in dodixie....
Callic Veratar
#303 - 2012-08-21 20:18:39 UTC
I was going to make the suggestion that the Amarr and Gallente get drone logi frigates and Minmatar and Caldari use repper modules, however, that doesn't really work since they tank the same way.

What about this idea:

- Amarr uses Remote Armor Reppers
- Caldari uses Remote Shield Reppers
- Gallente uses Armor Repper Drones
- Minmatar uses Shield Repper Drones

Each race has a distinct repair method... but the more I think about it, the more unusual it gets and the less I like it.
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#304 - 2012-08-21 20:23:08 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Turrets are 100% a viable and correct weapon system for Caldari pilots. They have turret ships at all levels in every tech level.
> Navy cruisers ?
> Navy BS ?
> Pirate ship with hybrids and caldari skills at the fregate/cruiser/battleship level ?
> T3 ? (the hybrid tengu doesnt exist)
> Dread ? (the single turret point is a joke)
> Titan ? (hi)
And I would say, what about a caldari/hybrid HAC but people don't like trolls. :(

Caldari/hybrids are stuck, at "high level" to the harpy and the rokh. A terrible lineup, like the missile+amarr Khanid one.









Anyway. For these fregates.
Bantam = burst
Navitas = Inquisitor

This is bad.
Make'em different.

Bantam = longer range
Burst = the reps are more efficient (ie cap stable with 4 heads, instead of a bantam and the 3 heads).

Oh. And don't forget to add an agression timer when someone is remoting an agressor. Logistics are game-breaking and are why station games are so boring.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#305 - 2012-08-21 20:25:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
Navitas:
Frigate skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Armour Repair Bot Repair amount and hitpoints per level
Role Bonus:
50% bonus to velocity of Repair Bots
Slot layout: 2 H, 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets
Fittings: 49 PWG, 145 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250 / 400 / 335
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 390 / 195s / 2
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 / 3.4 / 1450000 / 4.61s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 38km / 675 / 7
Sensor strength: 11 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 36
Cargo capacity: 280

Would this be really insane or loads of fun?
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#306 - 2012-08-21 20:30:20 UTC
This could be a chance to get gallente toward drones as a main weapon source, like missiles for caldari, projectiles for minmatar, and lasers for amarr

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#307 - 2012-08-21 20:32:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Navitas:
Frigate skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Armour Repair Bot Repair amount and hitpoints per level
Role Bonus:
50% bonus to velocity of Repair Bots
Slot layout: 2 H, 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets
Fittings: 49 PWG, 145 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250 / 400 / 335
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 390 / 195s / 2
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 / 3.4 / 1450000 / 4.61s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 38km / 675 / 7
Sensor strength: 11 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 36
Cargo capacity: 280

Would this be really insane or loads of fun?

The drone bay is a little large, something like 35 of 45 would be better and bandwith needs to be only 20, it is only T1 after all

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Zedd Al'thor
Bringing Solo Back
#308 - 2012-08-21 20:32:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Zedd Al'thor
Liang Nuren wrote:
Maliatida wrote:

I must have missed the part where these frigates can only repair other t1 frigates in the context of a frigate brawl.

Probably because that is not how they are going to be used.

You are looking at the whole concept the wrong way.

I've already developed a training schedule that can get the fitting and skills needed for these within a month. With no real cost commitment and no need to micromanage the ships, you are looking at the death of solo and small gang PVP, even moreso than the current state of offgrid boosters.

What's stopping me, or you, or anyone else from creating these and putting a dozen of them into every single fight?

Proliferation of logistics needs to be looked at very seriously given the current state of tanking, especially if you are giving everyone who wants to put in the effort a virtually unlimited supply of cheap, effective RR.


Frankly, if you want to pay for a dozen accounts to "solo PVP" with your logi frigs... well go for it. I'll warp in and volley a few frigs and you'll warp out and I'll scoop loot.

/shrug

-Liang


I think you missed part of his point. You don't have to pay for the account. If it can be trained in 30 days, just use a free 51 day account, and don't sub it at the end. It will cost nothing. And since this is eve, people will do it because they can.

Ignoring the extreme cases is why we have problems like stabbed afk alts farming fw plexes, tracking titans, goons "exploiting" the original fw changes, t2 gangs links (because the t1 versions weren't op enough), falcons, old jump bridges and the list goes on. Saddly it seems like CCP's game design only focuses on "they this would be cool" rather than looking at the consequences of the intended change.

On the surface logi frigs look fun & i can think of lots of potential uses, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#309 - 2012-08-21 20:48:38 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Navitas:
Frigate skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Armour Repair Bot Repair amount and hitpoints per level
Role Bonus:
50% bonus to velocity of Repair Bots
Slot layout: 2 H, 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets
Fittings: 49 PWG, 145 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250 / 400 / 335
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 390 / 195s / 2
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 / 3.4 / 1450000 / 4.61s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 38km / 675 / 7
Sensor strength: 11 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 36
Cargo capacity: 280

Would this be really insane or loads of fun?

The drone bay is a little large, something like 35 of 45 would be better and bandwith needs to be only 20, it is only T1 after all


To get anywhere near the three small reps of the other ships you still need small reps and a bonus to drone rep amount. Even then you still need five light drones.

My suggestion would be:

Navitas:
Frigate skill bonuses:
20% bonus to Armor Maintenance Bot transfer amount per level
10% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use
Role Bonus:
500% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers

Slot layout: 3 H, 3 M, 3 L, 0 turrets
Drones (bandwidth/bay) 25/50 (<- The normal Gallente ratio!)

With my other suggested changes 66% of the reps would come from modules and 33% from drones.
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#310 - 2012-08-21 21:03:46 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:
To get anywhere near the three small reps of the other ships you still need small reps and a bonus to drone rep amount. Even then you still need five light drones.
Rep drones work even when jammed/damped/neut'd.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#311 - 2012-08-21 21:12:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Marcel Devereux
Reppyk wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:
To get anywhere near the three small reps of the other ships you still need small reps and a bonus to drone rep amount. Even then you still need five light drones.
Rep drones work even when jammed/damped/neut'd.


Did you read any other part of my post ?-)

5 unbonused light drones would only provide 20 hitpoints every second. The current proposal 3 T2 reps provide 120 hitpoints every second. That's a 6x difference! Even with the jammed/damped/neut'd argument the ship would be totally useless compared to the rest. Again I suggested a 66%/33% split for modules/drones. All the same arguments still apply for the majority of the repping it can do.

Also drones can be destroyed.
Sudelle
Tir Asleen
#312 - 2012-08-21 21:21:34 UTC
Any chance of making a "Sisters of Eve" Logi ship instead with no racial frigate skill required, but requires Logi skills to get into instead. And then taking these ships and making them something else?

Amarr - rocket / missile
Galante - dedicated drone
Minmatar - rocket / missile
Caldari - smartbomb? lol (sorry, i just couldn't think of anything they don't already have)
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#313 - 2012-08-21 21:29:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
Navitas:
Frigate skill bonuses:
20% bonus to Armor Maintenance Bot transfer amount per level
10% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use
Role Bonus:
500% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers

Slot layout: 3 H, 3 M, 3 L, 0 turrets
Drones (bandwidth/bay) 25/50 (<- The normal Gallente ratio!)


I'd prefer this to what has been suggested. At least it's different from the others and seems as we're promoting "Drones all the things" for Gallente ships. Am I bothered that it requires more SP to use than the others? No.
Alara IonStorm
#314 - 2012-08-21 21:31:23 UTC
Zedd Al'thor wrote:

I think you missed part of his point. You don't have to pay for the account. If it can be trained in 30 days, just use a free 51 day account, and don't sub it at the end. It will cost nothing. And since this is eve, people will do it because they can.

You can't duel box a trial account so you might as well fly it on your main.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#315 - 2012-08-21 21:38:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Navitas:
Frigate skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Armour Repair Bot Repair amount and hitpoints per level
Role Bonus:
50% bonus to velocity of Repair Bots
Slot layout: 2 H, 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets
Fittings: 49 PWG, 145 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250 / 400 / 335
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 390 / 195s / 2
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 / 3.4 / 1450000 / 4.61s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 38km / 675 / 7
Sensor strength: 11 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 36
Cargo capacity: 280

Would this be really insane or loads of fun?

The drone bay is a little large, something like 35 of 45 would be better and bandwith needs to be only 20, it is only T1 after all


To get anywhere near the three small reps of the other ships you still need small reps and a bonus to drone rep amount. Even then you still need five light drones.

My suggestion would be:

Navitas:
Frigate skill bonuses:
20% bonus to Armor Maintenance Bot transfer amount per level
10% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use
Role Bonus:
500% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers

Slot layout: 3 H, 3 M, 3 L, 0 turrets
Drones (bandwidth/bay) 25/50 (<- The normal Gallente ratio!)

With my other suggested changes 66% of the reps would come from modules and 33% from drones.

If you give it 5 drones it will match the Tristan in drone damage, if you decrease the bandwidth by 5 and increase rep amount by 10% it will be the exact same

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Zedd Al'thor
Bringing Solo Back
#316 - 2012-08-21 21:41:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Zedd Al'thor
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Zedd Al'thor wrote:

I think you missed part of his point. You don't have to pay for the account. If it can be trained in 30 days, just use a free 51 day account, and don't sub it at the end. It will cost nothing. And since this is eve, people will do it because they can.

You can't duel box a trial account so you might as well fly it on your main.


51 day account isn't a trial account, and it is free. Send buddy invite to self (21 day trial account), buy 1 plex to upgrade account (now 51 day full privilege account) and receive 1 plex as a "thank you" for bringing a "friend" to eve.

It costs nothing as long as you have the isk for the inital plex. And if you can't afford the first plex i recommend you go afk some fw minor plexes for a few hours (which can be done with a noob merlin with less than 8 hrs training...).
Alara IonStorm
#317 - 2012-08-21 22:06:06 UTC
Zedd Al'thor wrote:

51 day account isn't a trial account, and it is free. Send buddy invite to self (21 day trial account), buy 1 plex to upgrade account (now 51 day full privilege account) and receive 1 plex as a "thank you" for bringing a "friend" to eve.

That is the problem not entry level logistics.

Zedd Al'thor wrote:

It costs nothing as long as you have the isk for the inital plex. And if you can't afford the first plex i recommend you go afk some fw minor plexes for a few hours (which can be done with a noob merlin with less than 8 hrs training...).

And of course this.

Bad game mechanics shouldn't stand in the way of fun new ships like these.
Zedd Al'thor
Bringing Solo Back
#318 - 2012-08-21 23:02:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Zedd Al'thor
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Zedd Al'thor wrote:

51 day account isn't a trial account, and it is free. Send buddy invite to self (21 day trial account), buy 1 plex to upgrade account (now 51 day full privilege account) and receive 1 plex as a "thank you" for bringing a "friend" to eve.

That is the problem not entry level logistics.

Zedd Al'thor wrote:

It costs nothing as long as you have the isk for the inital plex. And if you can't afford the first plex i recommend you go afk some fw minor plexes for a few hours (which can be done with a noob merlin with less than 8 hrs training...).

And of course this.

Bad game mechanics shouldn't stand in the way of fun new ships like these.


I agree that it is a problem, but you can't introduce a new ship/dynamic into eve with out considering the ecosystem it will be used in. That's the point I was making earlier about extremes. Right now it's a fun ship because we are just looking at the ship and not all the ways it will be used.

Has anyone considered how this will affect 0.0, Structure Repping & Triage Carriers?
A maxed triage carrier with 2 capital remote shield reps can repair 2640 hp/s
If a logi frig can repair 120 hp/s (a number someone else put forward earlier) you only need 22 logi frigs to equal the repping power of 1 triage carrier...
Since the logi frigs have a 28km rep range they can sit outside a large pos and rep and be afk.

Edit: large POS has 30 km radius, but it still works for stations & other structures.

Months of training & over 2 bil replaced by 1 month of training & ~200 mil...(Not to mention, CCP makes no money on this account)

Some may say "Well a single bombing run will destroy all those logi frigs" as a counter, but who cares. They are cheap, disposable & everyone can have multiple accounts & you can afk pos rep...


So you might say "Bad game mechanics shouldn't stand in the way of fun new ships like these" but yes they should. Anything less is shoddy game development. You can't make changes with out looking at everything or EVE will become more broken than it already is.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#319 - 2012-08-21 23:10:17 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Navitas:
Frigate skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Armour Repair Bot Repair amount and hitpoints per level
Role Bonus:
50% bonus to velocity of Repair Bots
Slot layout: 2 H, 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets
Fittings: 49 PWG, 145 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250 / 400 / 335
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 390 / 195s / 2
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 330 / 3.4 / 1450000 / 4.61s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 75
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 38km / 675 / 7
Sensor strength: 11 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 36
Cargo capacity: 280

Would this be really insane or loads of fun?

The drone bay is a little large, something like 35 of 45 would be better and bandwith needs to be only 20, it is only T1 after all


To get anywhere near the three small reps of the other ships you still need small reps and a bonus to drone rep amount. Even then you still need five light drones.

My suggestion would be:

Navitas:
Frigate skill bonuses:
20% bonus to Armor Maintenance Bot transfer amount per level
10% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use
Role Bonus:
500% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers

Slot layout: 3 H, 3 M, 3 L, 0 turrets
Drones (bandwidth/bay) 25/50 (<- The normal Gallente ratio!)

With my other suggested changes 66% of the reps would come from modules and 33% from drones.

If you give it 5 drones it will match the Tristan in drone damage, if you decrease the bandwidth by 5 and increase rep amount by 10% it will be the exact same


ccp muppet already said no to having drones because of the skills you would need... remember these are supposed to be noobish ships... wait for a tech II version for use skilled players...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#320 - 2012-08-21 23:10:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
So then they should take the nerf bat to destroyers, they take the same amount of time to train as a decent logi frig and can gank dozens of ships with no worry about having a negative sec status to on on your account that can't be biomassed. If you want to take that exploit in to consideration then everything that takes less than 51 days to use need to be nerfed.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.