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[Winter] Support Frigates

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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#281 - 2012-08-21 17:50:33 UTC
Maliatida wrote:

I must have missed the part where these frigates can only repair other t1 frigates in the context of a frigate brawl.

Probably because that is not how they are going to be used.

You are looking at the whole concept the wrong way.

I've already developed a training schedule that can get the fitting and skills needed for these within a month. With no real cost commitment and no need to micromanage the ships, you are looking at the death of solo and small gang PVP, even moreso than the current state of offgrid boosters.

What's stopping me, or you, or anyone else from creating these and putting a dozen of them into every single fight?

Proliferation of logistics needs to be looked at very seriously given the current state of tanking, especially if you are giving everyone who wants to put in the effort a virtually unlimited supply of cheap, effective RR.


Frankly, if you want to pay for a dozen accounts to "solo PVP" with your logi frigs... well go for it. I'll warp in and volley a few frigs and you'll warp out and I'll scoop loot.

/shrug

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Kithian Hastos
Divinum Immortalis Unlimited
#282 - 2012-08-21 17:52:37 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Belsina wrote:
its fine that u redo the minig frigs to logi frigs but then u should redo the tormentor instead of the inquisitor

because the inquisitor is reserved as rocket missile boat (because ccp said there'll be a rocket/missile frig for every race)

think bout it ;)


Since that dev blog was released the plans for frigates have changed. The Tristan is now planned as a drone boat and the Inquisitor as a logi frigate instead of missiles.
Both of those races have no other tech one missile bonused ships, so the decision was made that a logistics frigate would serve them better.


I was going to Cry because you took away my drone frigate, but now I have a Big smile because it's going to be the Tristan.
Maliatida
Blessed Are The Peacemakers
#283 - 2012-08-21 17:57:16 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Maliatida wrote:

I must have missed the part where these frigates can only repair other t1 frigates in the context of a frigate brawl.

Probably because that is not how they are going to be used.

You are looking at the whole concept the wrong way.

I've already developed a training schedule that can get the fitting and skills needed for these within a month. With no real cost commitment and no need to micromanage the ships, you are looking at the death of solo and small gang PVP, even moreso than the current state of offgrid boosters.

What's stopping me, or you, or anyone else from creating these and putting a dozen of them into every single fight?

Proliferation of logistics needs to be looked at very seriously given the current state of tanking, especially if you are giving everyone who wants to put in the effort a virtually unlimited supply of cheap, effective RR.


Frankly, if you want to pay for a dozen accounts to "solo PVP" with your logi frigs... well go for it. I'll warp in and volley a few frigs and you'll warp out and I'll scoop loot.

/shrug

-Liang


See my edit. There is already an issue with virtually needing multiple accounts to do anything solo, and this isn't going to make it any better.
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#284 - 2012-08-21 17:57:26 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Maliatida wrote:

I must have missed the part where these frigates can only repair other t1 frigates in the context of a frigate brawl.

Probably because that is not how they are going to be used.

You are looking at the whole concept the wrong way.

I've already developed a training schedule that can get the fitting and skills needed for these within a month. With no real cost commitment and no need to micromanage the ships, you are looking at the death of solo and small gang PVP, even moreso than the current state of offgrid boosters.

What's stopping me, or you, or anyone else from creating these and putting a dozen of them into every single fight?

Proliferation of logistics needs to be looked at very seriously given the current state of tanking, especially if you are giving everyone who wants to put in the effort a virtually unlimited supply of cheap, effective RR.


Frankly, if you want to pay for a dozen accounts to "solo PVP" with your logi frigs... well go for it. I'll warp in and volley a few frigs and you'll warp out and I'll scoop loot.

/shrug

-Liang


^THIS

they are FIGATES

hop in dessie and just voley trough them one volley at a time

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
Traykoff
Astrology Club.
Insidious.
#285 - 2012-08-21 17:58:09 UTC
Yes! Please do implement this. Would be a good addition to the wolf packs Pirate
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#286 - 2012-08-21 18:01:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Maliatida wrote:

See my edit
...

The only offsetting thing I can imagine is making them significantly more expensive than they currently are or have a higher threshold to get into (or both). Otherwise I will never leave station without at least three RR frigate alts, just like I never leave station without off grid boosting.


3 RR frigates is not something I'm going to overly worry about. Feel free - real PVPers will enjoy the killmails.

-Liang

Ed: Also, I think you DRAMATICALLY underestimate the amount of time and effort is going to be involved in keeping up a fleet of a dozen logi frigates. They're paper thin and even in the best case, setting up that RR is going to take a SUBSTANTIAL amount of time.

I think you'd honestly be better off with Vexors and RR drones.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Maliatida
Blessed Are The Peacemakers
#287 - 2012-08-21 18:04:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Maliatida
I maintained a corporation of 20 catalyst pilots who killed over 150 high-sec exhumers netting me a little over two billion isk.

I think I can manage a few RR pilots.

Edit: Really, they are trivially priced frigates that can use equally cheap meta mods in free (<900ksp) clones. If you want to try to volley the ~1m ISK ship I don't care about in your significantly more expensive ship while I tackle you in whatever ship I care to kill you in, you are more than welcome.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#288 - 2012-08-21 18:13:43 UTC
Maliatida wrote:
I maintained a corporation of 20 catalyst pilots who killed over 150 high-sec exhumers netting me a little over two billion isk.

I think I can manage a few RR pilots.

Edit: Really, they are trivially priced frigates that can use equally cheap meta mods in free (<900ksp) clones. If you want to try to volley the ~1m ISK ship I don't care about in your significantly more expensive ship while I tackle you in whatever ship I care to kill you in, you are more than welcome.


Hahaha, I think you're dramatically underestimating the amount of time and cost of setting up 20 frigs to RR someone. But hey, feel free to bring your fleet of 20 logi frigs to Amamake. We'll rumble. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#289 - 2012-08-21 18:14:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
Liang Nuren wrote:

3 RR frigates is not something I'm going to overly worry about. Feel free - real PVPers will enjoy the killmails.


QFT. I love these things, but really I'm just excited to kill them as much as I am to fly them. There are so many ships out there designed to kill frigates (including other frigates) that don't see much use these days because of lack of targets. With the prevalence of gang compositions that can tank gate guns in lowsec (in other words, not frigates) fast tackle is seen more and more infrequently in favor of faster locking battlecruiser gangs. There are fast anti-tackle ships (like the Claw / Taranis and now their tech 1 counterparts) that don't see much use these days (they are bested in 1vs1 by dessies and pirate frigs), that now should have a plentiful food supply once again given the wealth of useful tech 1 frigates added to the line-up.

Logi frigates will only serve to stir up the doldrums in small gang PvP and give a lot of surrounding ships from E-war frigs and combat interceptors, all the way up to Vagabonds and smartbombing Battleships, new life and a new role in combat besides just popping the occasional Stiletto or Malediction.

This paranoia about them breaking the game is completely misplaced. They were intentionally designed to be at the bottom of the food chain in terms of survivability, even Griffins can serve as a greater force multiplier in fleets and operate at much further effective range, and I see them die in droves every single day. If logi frigates are as much of a pain in the ass as you're afraid they will be, they'll be primaried and obliterated that much faster by pretty much most things around. (This is, of course, the other primary criticism we hear in this thread about them being useless for this reason.)

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#290 - 2012-08-21 18:25:45 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Griffins


Speaking of which, a fleet of a dozen of these would be really infuriating as a solo PVPer. I guess I'd have to fit up an Ishtar?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Maliatida
Blessed Are The Peacemakers
#291 - 2012-08-21 18:28:41 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Maliatida wrote:
I maintained a corporation of 20 catalyst pilots who killed over 150 high-sec exhumers netting me a little over two billion isk.

I think I can manage a few RR pilots.

Edit: Really, they are trivially priced frigates that can use equally cheap meta mods in free (<900ksp) clones. If you want to try to volley the ~1m ISK ship I don't care about in your significantly more expensive ship while I tackle you in whatever ship I care to kill you in, you are more than welcome.


Hahaha, I think you're dramatically underestimating the amount of time and cost of setting up 20 frigs to RR someone. But hey, feel free to bring your fleet of 20 logi frigs to Amamake. We'll rumble. :)

-Liang


Costs are negligible (around 10m/pilot) and ship costs are negligible (~1M per ship).

No need for hyperbole, you'd only bring two or three RR pilots at a time. There is really no reason not to do so.

You don't seem to be getting the gist of how making logistics so ridiculously available is going to be a problem.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#292 - 2012-08-21 18:35:36 UTC
I would like you to revisit the possibility of having a logi drone based Navitas. While yes it does require more skill points to fly, I would argue that is a good thing. It will be a trade-off that players can make. If they want to fly a pure module based solution then they could chose one of the other races. This will give pilots options and fit well with the drone racial theme.

The problem also relies with the requirements for the T2 version of the logi drones. Currently it requires 1,025,250 SP (yay for having Aura on my phone) to be able to field five T2 logi drones of any size. If you would change the requirement to for lights to be Repair Drone Operation III that would reduce the required skill points to be 281,250 SP. While this is no where near the 24,000 SP to use T2 small remote reps, it is not that much to ask of a new player to train as we are only talking about 4-5 days of training.

I haven't played with the numbers yet (still need a computer and spreadsheet for that) but you could still give the Navitas a range bonus for reps and a bonus to logi drone repair.

Thoughts?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#293 - 2012-08-21 18:39:17 UTC
Maliatida wrote:

Costs are negligible (around 10m/pilot) and ship costs are negligible (~1M per ship).

No need for hyperbole, you'd only bring two or three RR pilots at a time. There is really no reason not to do so.

You don't seem to be getting the gist of how making logistics so ridiculously available is going to be a problem.


You can feel free to multibox 3 logi frigs and a main and I'll be walking away with 4 kills.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Ryelek d'Entari
Horizon Glare
#294 - 2012-08-21 18:40:42 UTC
Apologies if this has been mentioned before, but...

The new player career agent mission arcs reward several ships, including multiple copies of the old mining frigates (now logistics frigates). Last I checked, you get one of the current mining frigates (e.g. Navitas) in each of the trade and industrial chains. That was fine then, since the mining frigates could be used effectively for starter hauling, starter mining, or even starter combat L1 missioning reasonably effectively.

However, with this change, new players will be stuck with multiple hulls of a ship that they're almost certainly not going to be using for its intended role (logi) anytime soon. Might it not be a good idea to retrofit the career agent missions to reward different ships instead?

Here's the current list:


  • Exploration career agent rewards 1x exploration frigate
  • Trade career agent rewards 1x mining frigate and 1x industrial
  • Industrial career agent rewards 1x mining frigate and 1x industrial
  • Military career agent rewards 1x attack frigate and 1x other combat frigate
  • Advanced military career agent rewards 1x attack frigate and 1x destroyer (and another attack frigate that you get blown up in)


Rewarding a frigate with remote rep bonuses during the trade and industrial career lines seems... odd. However there no longer seems to be a decent starter industry ship (will the industry career agents be changed to give the ORE mining frigate and skillbook, when available? Seems odd.) and the most appropriate starter trade ship is clearly the exploration frigate with its oversize cargo bay.

(also, random related career agent ship reward oddity - Gallente get a Tristan at the end of the Military mission, whereas the other races get Punisher/Merlin/Rifter. Seems Gallente should get an Incursus for consistency as it's part of the same combat frigate group)
Maliatida
Blessed Are The Peacemakers
#295 - 2012-08-21 18:52:01 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Maliatida wrote:

Costs are negligible (around 10m/pilot) and ship costs are negligible (~1M per ship).

No need for hyperbole, you'd only bring two or three RR pilots at a time. There is really no reason not to do so.

You don't seem to be getting the gist of how making logistics so ridiculously available is going to be a problem.


You can feel free to multibox 3 logi frigs and a main and I'll be walking away with 4 kills.

-Liang



You should really read before responding.

The issue is that the logi frigs would not need to be piloted. Set assist, start reps, orbit, done.

You've now set up a situation in which a single player, with minimal investment, can shut down a deadspace area with ease to anything short of a significantly larger group.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#296 - 2012-08-21 18:58:00 UTC
Maliatida wrote:

You should really read before responding.

The issue is that the logi frigs would not need to be piloted. Set assist, start reps, orbit, done.

You've now set up a situation in which a single player, with minimal investment, can shut down a deadspace area with ease to anything short of a significantly larger group.


And that's the thing about it. You set assist, start reps, orbit, and then the entire battlefield changes. They're slow and easily kited. They cap out easily and are vulnerable to neuts and ewar. They're paper thin. They're free kills. And after that, so are you. But no matter how you slice it, arguing for nerfs on the basis of 4-20 vs 1 is simply madness. And meaningless.

But whatever, you've said your piece. Everyone is going to fire up 5-20 accounts and multibox fleets of logi frigs for solo PVP. So Sayeth The Great Maliatida!!!! Roll

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#297 - 2012-08-21 19:01:40 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Ryelek d'Entari wrote:
Apologies if this has been mentioned before, but...

The new player career agent mission arcs reward several ships, including multiple copies of the old mining frigates (now logistics frigates). Last I checked, you get one of the current mining frigates (e.g. Navitas) in each of the trade and industrial chains. That was fine then, since the mining frigates could be used effectively for starter hauling, starter mining, or even starter combat L1 missioning reasonably effectively.

However, with this change, new players will be stuck with multiple hulls of a ship that they're almost certainly not going to be using for its intended role (logi) anytime soon. Might it not be a good idea to retrofit the career agent missions to reward different ships instead?

Here's the current list:


  • Exploration career agent rewards 1x exploration frigate
  • Trade career agent rewards 1x mining frigate and 1x industrial
  • Industrial career agent rewards 1x mining frigate and 1x industrial
  • Military career agent rewards 1x attack frigate and 1x other combat frigate
  • Advanced military career agent rewards 1x attack frigate and 1x destroyer (and another attack frigate that you get blown up in)


Rewarding a frigate with remote rep bonuses during the trade and industrial career lines seems... odd. However there no longer seems to be a decent starter industry ship (will the industry career agents be changed to give the ORE mining frigate and skillbook, when available? Seems odd.) and the most appropriate starter trade ship is clearly the exploration frigate with its oversize cargo bay.

(also, random related career agent ship reward oddity - Gallente get a Tristan at the end of the Military mission, whereas the other races get Punisher/Merlin/Rifter. Seems Gallente should get an Incursus for consistency as it's part of the same combat frigate group)


Yep, those rewards have not been updated in quite a while. I'll double check tomorrow to make sure our New Player Experience team has a defect in the system for it (I think they already do).

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#298 - 2012-08-21 19:18:41 UTC
And to think I was called crazy when I was training people on the concept of frigate RR/logistics...
Metal Icarus
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#299 - 2012-08-21 19:52:28 UTC
With these new frigates being introduced, a new tutorial mission should be introduced.

The frigate logi rescue mission!

Mission: To rescue an NPC squad from pirates!

it would be an awesome introduction to logistics from the get-go!
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#300 - 2012-08-21 19:55:18 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:
I would like you to revisit the possibility of having a logi drone based Navitas. While yes it does require more skill points to fly, I would argue that is a good thing. It will be a trade-off that players can make. If they want to fly a pure module based solution then they could chose one of the other races. This will give pilots options and fit well with the drone racial theme.

The problem also relies with the requirements for the T2 version of the logi drones. Currently it requires 1,025,250 SP (yay for having Aura on my phone) to be able to field five T2 logi drones of any size. If you would change the requirement to for lights to be Repair Drone Operation III that would reduce the required skill points to be 281,250 SP. While this is no where near the 24,000 SP to use T2 small remote reps, it is not that much to ask of a new player to train as we are only talking about 4-5 days of training.

I haven't played with the numbers yet (still need a computer and spreadsheet for that) but you could still give the Navitas a range bonus for reps and a bonus to logi drone repair.

Thoughts?


Alright some numbers. If I didn't miss any skills 3 small remote armor reps on the proposed ships would produce 120 hit points per second of rep amount . 3 small remote armor reps unbonused would produce 80 hit points per second. 5 light drones with a 20% per level bonus would repair 35 hitpoints per second. This would leave a difference of 5 hitpoints per second. You could solve this by changing the base repair amount of T2 light drones to be 16 instead of 14. This would make them produce the same rep amount per second. Or tweak the rep cycle vs rep amount.

Please help us battle the homogeneity of these frigates. Seriously 256k requirement is nothing compared to the long train into logistics. Again Drones V will help in every Gallente ship!