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[ECM] Imagine an Arazu locking down 4+ ships
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Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-08-21 14:29:01 UTC
With t3 BCs it's never been so easy to remove ECM boats from the field.
Liaria Cullen
Pulling The Plug
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#42 - 2012-08-21 14:30:03 UTC
Colonel Xaven wrote:
Harlot Hohannson wrote:
Ptraci wrote:
Randomize All wrote:
Most game developers think "Now you are not allowed to play" is a ridiculous game mechanic..


Of course you can play. When you are jammed, you are playing - if you are being jammed it means someone else is NOT being jammed. So take one for the team, it's only 20 seconds jeez. In the meantime you could be, I dunno, burning towards the falcon so the minute the lock breaks you are on top of him and he's in range, perhaps?

More stupid justifications for a broken mechanic.

Yeah right, I'll just disable the scrams and webs that are on me so I can come on over to be insta jammed by your next cycle. It should be easy since I can't lock anything to retaliate. Also not everyone flies in a gang.


So let me reconstruct your situation that brings you here to the forums:


  • you flew alone
  • in a ship full of tank and mods against every kind of ewar except ECM
  • then hostile(s) brought an evil Falcon...


So now lets modify this story a bit


  • you fly alone
  • in a ship full of tank and mods against every kind of ewar except NEUTS
  • then hostile(s) bring an evil Curse...


You might notice the rock, paper, scissors mechanics which you call "broken".


comparing being nueted out, to being jammed is ********. most ships can respond to being nueted, totally diffrent thing to ecm.
Harlot Hohannson
Eye on Wang Poo
#43 - 2012-08-21 14:31:17 UTC
Thats not the case, and a curse is much more easily countered anyway. Perhaps if the curse also broke your lock so you couldn't do much but throw drones at it there would be a problem.

As it is ECM is very much broken. Everyone trying to argue against it is just being a smartarse
Brorr Liason
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#44 - 2012-08-21 14:36:04 UTC
Harlot Hohannson wrote:
Thats not the case, and a curse is much more easily countered anyway. Perhaps if the curse also broke your lock so you couldn't do much but throw drones at it there would be a problem.

As it is ECM is very much broken. Everyone trying to argue against it is just being a smartarse



I hear generalizations are always true.

I have one too.


Everyone who doesn't fit against ECM is just being dumb.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#45 - 2012-08-21 14:42:47 UTC
I am not taking either side on this argument. I think the problem with the falcon is the range at which you can jam out a target at. sitting at 100km jamming our target is hard to counter with pretty much any ship save a select few.
Colonel Xaven
Perkone
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-08-21 14:43:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Colonel Xaven
Harlot Hohannson wrote:
As it is ECM is very much broken. Everyone trying to argue against it is just being a smartarse


So you came to the forums to promote your opinion only whilst neither accepting others' opinions nor accepting the fact that there are many ways to counter and / or mitigate ECM (not in easy mode though)?

Fine. Looking foward to your ragequit post.

www.facebook.com/RazorAlliance
Misunderstood Genius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2012-08-21 14:45:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Misunderstood Genius
Whining at ECM is a tradition in EVE. If you would remove ECM from the game it would just push all the tears on "too much logistics" or something else what's annoying. Why is ECM at the top of the list? Because you can't lock anything and in many cases it doesn't matter if you could lock or not. You would have died anyway without getting a kill. The result is the same: to get blobbed or killed by a smaller fleet with ECM. Anyone who believes in fair fights or balanced PvP in EVE does not understand the game.

CCP nerfed the Falcon a long time ago and people are too lazy or not experienced enough how to deal with it. ECM gives a chance for a smaller fleet to counter a bigger one. Before the nerf it was overpowered indeed. After the nerf the killboards were filled up with loads of Falcon losses.

Ofc it's a pain but it's also a pain to
- get killed by a bigger fleet
- get killed by a t3 fleet with logistics
- get killled by RR BS's
- get killed by neuts
- get killed by bigger ships
- get killed by a hotdrop
- get killed by nano-****
- get killed by Loki boosted points and webs

I am sure you will find many more examples where EVE is totally unfair and sucks because it's simply a multiplayer game where you always face a bigger fish.

ECM is meant to deal with numbers or logistics. And I see a lot of logistics around these days. On the other side you can use it to kill a solo BS in your Cruiser by perma-jamming with your alt. Sure. But there are many other different ways to die horribly in EVE. ECM is not the worst one. Bring snipers or nano-ships and Falcons are pretty useless on the field. They die fast or have to run.

The much bigger issue are EC-drones. Nearly anyone is using them and tbh you don't need a Falcon in this case. You face a small fleet of Hurricanes. They suck your cap to death and perma-jam your ship with EC-300's out of the fight easily. Bring a Falcon and you get smacked by these guys for sure.

The Falcon is dead. Long live the Falcon.
Brorr Liason
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#48 - 2012-08-21 14:47:13 UTC
MIrple wrote:
I am not taking either side on this argument. I think the problem with the falcon is the range at which you can jam out a target at. sitting at 100km jamming our target is hard to counter with pretty much any ship save a select few.


Falcons sitting out that far are not within their optimals so are jamming at less strength, but yes the ones that utilize that extra range are a bit rougher to push out of the fight. However, fully skilled Falcon pilots with a perfect Proteus booster can almost reach that range so the fall-off isn't too bad. But anyone with that much specialization deserves to be able fly their ship.
Ottersmacker
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#49 - 2012-08-21 14:54:34 UTC
ecm should be a mechanic to break logi chains and whatnot instead of being the way to disable solo and small gang pvp

there are so many excellent proposals to rebalance the damn thing (1 max target instead of 0 is my fav)

oh wait it has been said ad nauseum for the past n years and nothing has happened

i just locked an open door.. strange, yet symbolically compelling.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#50 - 2012-08-21 14:56:49 UTC
Brorr Liason wrote:
MIrple wrote:
I am not taking either side on this argument. I think the problem with the falcon is the range at which you can jam out a target at. sitting at 100km jamming our target is hard to counter with pretty much any ship save a select few.


Falcons sitting out that far are not within their optimals so are jamming at less strength, but yes the ones that utilize that extra range are a bit rougher to push out of the fight. However, fully skilled Falcon pilots with a perfect Proteus booster can almost reach that range so the fall-off isn't too bad. But anyone with that much specialization deserves to be able fly their ship.


I agree with you there but correct me if I am wrong but a skill falcon pilot with good skills can jam with around 12 points at 125km you only lose 10% per ring of falloff so just using EFT numbers here. I know its not completely accurate but with max skills and 2 SDA's your jam strength is 13.5 now in your first ring of fall off it is 12 that is not much difference. This is the point I am trying to make
Yokai Mitsuhide
Doomheim
#51 - 2012-08-21 15:01:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Yokai Mitsuhide
Harlot Hohannson wrote:
It would seem overpowered to be able to interfere with the LOCK RANGE or 4+ ships in a single ship right?

Well how about the damn Falcon being able to almost completely remove 4+ ships from a fight whatsoever (notwithstanding smartbombs or drones that already have a target).

I am still amazed that this bullshit is allowed to go on.

ECM is so ubiquitous it's a joke. CCP really should do something about this pathetic 'chance based' (lol) mechanic.

In before all the cowards that can't handle risk come in defending overpowered mechanics. "I can't risk having someone actually fighting while I PVP".


All I heard is "I am angry that Caldari Electronic Warfare is better than Gallente" Which would make sense since Caldari are...well the better race for EW. Learn to adapt and deal with EW, bring your own EWar ships. Stop complaining because someone else thought of something you didn't and you ended up paying for it.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#52 - 2012-08-21 15:04:49 UTC
Loving the tears... there are plenty of creative ways to deal with damps or ecm.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#53 - 2012-08-21 15:07:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:

All I heard is "I am angry that Caldari Electronic Warfare is better than Gallente" Which would make sense since Caldari are...well the better race for EW. Learn to adapt and deal with EW, bring your own EWar ships. Stop complaining because someone else thought of something you didn't and you ended up paying for it.


Make full use of the ewar capabilities of gallente and its pretty devestating, it just needs a bit of organisation instead of half arsed fleet compositions - combine a prot or eos boosting infowar with the right ships to compliment those boosts and you can resist ecm relatively well and lockdown a lot of stuff.

It does take a fleet the thats made up of pilots who are capable of more than anchoring up, pressing F1 and badly following primaries tho.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#54 - 2012-08-21 15:12:52 UTC
does ecm stack?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
#55 - 2012-08-21 15:13:16 UTC
Remember before the damp nerf? Arazus would go around damping people to less than 1-2km, and were pretty damn awesome for sologanking. Yeah, that was like 5 years ago...

They got nerfed because CCP didn't like people removing the chance to fight back. 5 years later, ECM mechanics are still untouched. Every man and his dog has a falcon alt, ecm drones are pretty much part of any standard fit, there is even a meme spouted on the thousands of killmails where a good fight was being had, then comes the falcon to plop itself on the bottom of the killmail. BECAUSE OF FALCON!

You can get round it, you can minimize risk from it, but you can't deny it is a fight killer, and an all round remover of fun from the game.
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#56 - 2012-08-21 15:13:27 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:

All I heard is "I am angry that Caldari Electronic Warfare is better than Gallente" Which would make sense since Caldari are...well the better race for EW. Learn to adapt and deal with EW, bring your own EWar ships. Stop complaining because someone else thought of something you didn't and you ended up paying for it.


Make full use of the ewar capabilities of gallente and its pretty devestating, it just needs a bit of organisation instead of half arsed fleet compositions - combine a prot or eos boosting infowar with the right ships to compliment those boosts and you can resist ecm relatively well and lockdown a lot of stuff.

It does take a fleet the thats made up of pilots who are capable of more than anchoring up, pressing F1 and badly following primaries tho.


true.
Sadly most people are not creativ at all so they do not see logical synergies of different playstyles.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#57 - 2012-08-21 15:18:28 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:

All I heard is "I am angry that Caldari Electronic Warfare is better than Gallente" Which would make sense since Caldari are...well the better race for EW. Learn to adapt and deal with EW, bring your own EWar ships. Stop complaining because someone else thought of something you didn't and you ended up paying for it.


Make full use of the ewar capabilities of gallente and its pretty devestating, it just needs a bit of organisation instead of half arsed fleet compositions - combine a prot or eos boosting infowar with the right ships to compliment those boosts and you can resist ecm relatively well and lockdown a lot of stuff.

It does take a fleet the thats made up of pilots who are capable of more than anchoring up, pressing F1 and badly following primaries tho.


Yes but then you need a very skill intensive person just to counter 1 ship.
Joe Hinken
Cetan Consortium
#58 - 2012-08-21 15:22:55 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
does ecm stack?


No. Each jammer has its own chance to jam based off of its strength versus the enemy ship's sensor strength.

Brick Royl > bad timing the isk is deflating fatser then a baloon in a cactus shop
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#59 - 2012-08-21 15:27:07 UTC
MIrple wrote:

Yes but then you need a very skill intensive person just to counter 1 ship.


I do dislike the impact ecm has versus one ship, I don't dislike the power of ecm as such but it does suck that any old fool can jump in a jamming ship and bring that capability to the fight when other force multipliers of that power require a higher level of skill and organisation to bring to the fight. Personally I know full well how to counter or avoid it tho so only have myself to blame if I get locked out by it.
Misunderstood Genius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2012-08-21 16:54:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Misunderstood Genius
Soi Mala wrote:
5 years later, ECM mechanics are still untouched. Every man and his dog has a falcon alt, ecm drones are pretty much part of any standard fit, there is even a meme spouted on the thousands of killmails where a good fight was being had, then comes the falcon to plop itself on the bottom of the killmail. BECAUSE OF FALCON!

You can get round it, you can minimize risk from it, but you can't deny it is a fight killer, and an all round remover of fun from the game.



ECM range was nerfed. And even for me as someone who is using a Falcon alt the change was reproducible. I used the Falcon at 230km optimal for busting gate camps. While these guys were killing stuff in a second without any chance LOL'ing and smacking in local how fail EVE players are at "PvP" they were raging at one pilot with his alt killing one of them in a fight where I still had to tank some decent rest-DPS with my main.

Anyway. The difference to this time was: you could sit with your Falcon at range and the former probe system was too slow to catch you there. Today your optimal is usually around 70km (with high skills and t2 mods you can get it up to 80 - with expensive imps up to 120 I guess), you can try at 100-120km but at costs of effective jamming (tier 3 BC snipers will take you out anyway), you can be probed out easily in a minute and you need to keep on burning because fast ships, drones and small tackler give you a headache. Result: dual boxing with a Falcon against numbers is very hard and in many situations you can't keep ECM on the field long enough. You have to run and you will die a lot. Every Falcon-hater will love my loss-list since the nerf. I am personally using more my booster for grid fights at range than the Falcon. The Falcon has been nerfed to a nice scout and prober with the option to jam your ass out if a fight is going bad.

ECM can't be removed from the game. Probably nerfing the optimal but boosting the falloff? Removing ECM drones completely because these really suck and ruin more fights than a single Falcon alt focusing more on his main than on ECM?

CCP will make the decision and again we all have to adapt. No biggy here.