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CCP doesn't keep error logs from server? The logs show nothing.

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rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#81 - 2012-08-21 13:22:33 UTC
Rutger Janssen wrote:
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
To be honest I don't recall anybody ever filing a petition for a bug and getting an answer back with anything but the most asinine, generic and infuriating answer of "the logs show nothing".

I did. i changed the ship to ivent before changing the input hangar. This reset the ship to invent. At first it was denied saying it was not a bug but after I pointed out that my bug report was attached to a known defect, the copies were changed. this was back in 2009, bug was fixed in alberto 2012


Yeah with my dealings with GM, I always felt there was a time delay for them to know the official issues or so. It kind of makes sense, they have days off, or switch shifts, and bugs could start on their days off, or all the brochures and updates they would have to read to stay afloat, could be too much.

Best bet is try, to figure whether the issue is known or not, tell them that in a petition as well as give time for all that information and new paper work to get settled out. Just be hard for people who don't stay plugged in 24/7 to stay afloat.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#82 - 2012-08-21 13:22:55 UTC
@ solstice.....

I agree? I think? maybe?
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#83 - 2012-08-21 13:23:08 UTC
SpotlessBlade wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
They aren't taking the lazy way out of the issue. You asked for it to be escalated, and it has been. It will be dealt with. You just have to be patient. Maybe the Senior GM can tell you something the one you dealt with couldn't. Coming onto the forums and throwing a temper tantrum is not going to help your case.



Again, our definitions differ. You call this a temper tantrum, I call it opinionated.
I call it lazy because they immediately respond that they can't assist, i believe, for very practical reasons. I think that they do it because there is a percentage of players who just accept it at face value, and don't press any further. This would greatly reduce the workload on their team.


Personally, I think you're being stupid, then. You are throwing a temper tantrum, and making a post on the forums is not going to change whatever decision they ultimately come to. Being rude about it is if anything going to make them less willing to help you.
CCP Paradox
#84 - 2012-08-21 13:25:32 UTC
I just wanted to point out, that I started to look into this after coming across the thread. Out of all the information, the one thing that really stood out to me, was the error message

"Your character has repeatedly failed loading on the server. This indicates a fault and support personnel need to be notified. Please file a petition. Apologies for the inconvenience...The EVE Dev Team."

This error message does not best reflect why it appears for a user. After talking with developers about why we show this message, it was originally intended to be shown when we suspected a character was stuck somewhere. And if you were indeed stuck, we are advising the player that your next move should be to contact customer support in order to free yourself if you found you were having difficulty completing game actions.

An action point I have taken from this is to reword that error message from when we raise it to a user, to better describe the situation and error that they are in.

So, for the confusing messaging from within the client, I apologise.
As for filing the petition after receiving the message, thank you for that.

I am not going to investigate your petition further however, that is for customer support. I can tell you that the error message is not shown due to a fault at our end. In which case, the usual rules will most likely apply:

"Any losses of any kind resulting from a large-scale player engagement are not covered by this reimbursement policy."

CCP Paradox | EVE QA | Team Phenomenon

Space Magician
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#85 - 2012-08-21 13:28:25 UTC
^ Did you by chance, takes screenshots of this thread, so you could show it to other people and see their faces drop?

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#86 - 2012-08-21 13:28:38 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
Being rude about it is if anything going to make them less willing to help you.


I imagine that your the sensitive type. If I have an opinion about the game/service/etc. , I have every right to state it plain out . I don't need to mince words. I am not being rude to any particular person, or attacking anyone from CCP on a personal issue. I am however saying quite plainly that I believe their work ethic toward the customer base is crap. I am also stating that I believe that CCP's policies toward this issue are terrible and they are being represented in a lazy, half hearted, and unhelpful manner. If that's rude, I really hope you don't work with the public.... they'll eat you alive.
Rutger Janssen
Chanuur
The Initiative.
#87 - 2012-08-21 13:34:05 UTC
Grats op, you got attention from a dev for your issue. I've been trying that for ages :( Guess forums do work better petitions and bug reports :(
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#88 - 2012-08-21 13:35:56 UTC
CCP Paradox wrote:


This error message does not best reflect why it appears for a user. After talking with developers about why we show this message, it was originally intended to be shown when we suspected a character was stuck somewhere. And if you were indeed stuck, we are advising the player that your next move should be to contact customer support in order to free yourself if you found you were having difficulty completing game actions.

An action point I have taken from this is to reword that error message from when we raise it to a user, to better describe the situation and error that they are in.

So, for the confusing messaging from within the client, I apologise.
As for filing the petition after receiving the message, thank you for that.



And this is closer to what this process should go like. So Thank you to paradox for replying in an intelligent and reasonable manner. Thanks as well, for making a change to prevent further confusion.

I still wonder why there is no way to follow the cause of the fault, and i question the logic of a policy that denies players recompense for faults, if proved to be on CCP's side, so long as the are engaged in fleet combat, as a huge part of this game is fleet combat of varying sizes.

Thanks again to Paradox for chiming in.
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2012-08-21 13:38:53 UTC
CCP Paradox wrote:


I am not going to investigate your petition further however, that is for customer support. I can tell you that the error message is not shown due to a fault at our end. In which case, the usual rules will most likely apply:

"Any losses of any kind resulting from a large-scale player engagement are not covered by this reimbursement policy."


Most of your reply is exactly how every petition should be handled. Proper care to the customer with reasoning as to why a decision is made. Not a pre-scripted macro'd response that says nothing to the player to make them think any effort was made to help them. THATS the frustrating part.

However...to the part I quoted...that's a pretty broad statement. Is that saying that if you are in a large fleet and you lose your ship due to a game bug, not lag, not client error, not internet connectivity issues but an actual game bug then we don't get reimbursed? What constitutes a large-scale player engagement? 10? 20? 100? 500?

Also...it really feels based on the rules that CCP's focus is more on when you DON'T reimburse instead of when you DO. Just saying...it feels that way. One thing that was pounded into me in customer service training is to focus on what you CAN do and not what you CAN'T. Irritating as that sounds, because it really is, it helps make the customer feel better.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
CCP Paradox
#90 - 2012-08-21 13:39:52 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Paradox
Rutger Janssen wrote:
Grats op, you got attention from a dev for your issue. I've been trying that for ages :( Guess forums do work better petitions and bug reports :(


I just wanted to double highlight, in my original post that there was just one thing that he gave me reason to investigate. As for SpotlessBlade calling us out on the forums. He did so in a manner that was reasonable within anyone's frustration at losing a ship. (contrary to the other players calling him out)

We value feedback from our players, and having an open platform to communicate with CCP in a manner such as our forums is critical for us to hear you guys. I just happened to be reading G&D at the time of seeing his thread, and looked further. Immediately seeing that error message, my face scrunched up. So I dug deeper.

Note that posting over in the (Issues, Workarounds & Localization forum) with a problem you may have, will always be seen by those of QA as well as bug reports. Where we can dive deeper into any issues you have.

CCP Paradox | EVE QA | Team Phenomenon

Space Magician
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#91 - 2012-08-21 13:44:22 UTC  |  Edited by: rodyas
Quote:
Also...it really feels based on the rules that CCP's focus is more on when you DON'T reimburse instead of when you DO. Just saying...it feels that way. One thing that was pounded into me in customer service training is to focus on what you CAN do and not what you CAN'T. Irritating as that sounds, because it really is, it helps make the customer feel better.




^ To help you feel better.


They DO reimburse for small fleets or solo flying. They DO reimburse for server bugs. They DO allow you to send petitions. They DO respond to you at some point. They DO offer a bug sub forum, for you to discuss bugs, or a bug you think you encountered. They DO tell you when you won't be reimbursed (much like an insurance company, or perhaps not like them with not giving early warnings) and allow you to make intelligent decisions.

You should feel much better now as a customer, and we appreciate your business.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2012-08-21 13:44:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
SpotlessBlade wrote:
@ solstice.....

I agree? I think? maybe?


*lol* sorry...

This was going on in my mind for a long time, because my ... uhm ... to quote somebody else:
... "ability to game the sandbox" ...
led me to several bugs/exploits i've reported and it's discouraging to not know what happens with them.

It's not about me being entitled to information, it's about the simple fact that good customers LOVE to
help companies and in the opposite get discouraged by lack of feedback about it.

I added a PS to my last post about it. I'm sure their behaviour isn't on purpose, but it's really discouraging.


My post is semi-related to the thread, aka:
Why should we give a damn about what they want us to do, when they are often discouraging us to do it !
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#93 - 2012-08-21 13:46:05 UTC
SpotlessBlade wrote:
[...]
This is not the first time i have petitioned a loss. I have NEVER received a reimbursement, and in those instances the GM's reply made sense. In this case, the reply is simply BS.


I think we've found ^^the problem^^ here.

You know that old fable about the boy who cried wolf, OP?

You should stop wasting the GMs' time, too many useless petitions glutting up their queue pissing them off has gotten people warned, or even banned in the past.


Ni.
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#94 - 2012-08-21 13:46:18 UTC
CCP Paradox wrote:
Note that posting over in the (Issues, Workarounds & Localization forum) with a problem you may have, will always be seen by those of QA as well as bug reports. Where we can dive deeper into any issues you have.



I understand that. However, a cursory glance at activity on both forums tells one which is more viewed and replied to.
Rutger Janssen
Chanuur
The Initiative.
#95 - 2012-08-21 13:50:09 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
CCP Paradox wrote:


I am not going to investigate your petition further however, that is for customer support. I can tell you that the error message is not shown due to a fault at our end. In which case, the usual rules will most likely apply:

"Any losses of any kind resulting from a large-scale player engagement are not covered by this reimbursement policy."


Most of your reply is exactly how every petition should be handled. Proper care to the customer with reasoning as to why a decision is made. Not a pre-scripted macro'd response that says nothing to the player to make them think any effort was made to help them. THATS the frustrating part.

However...to the part I quoted...that's a pretty broad statement. Is that saying that if you are in a large fleet and you lose your ship due to a game bug, not lag, not client error, not internet connectivity issues but an actual game bug then we don't get reimbursed? What constitutes a large-scale player engagement? 10? 20? 100? 500?

Also...it really feels based on the rules that CCP's focus is more on when you DON'T reimburse instead of when you DO. Just saying...it feels that way. One thing that was pounded into me in customer service training is to focus on what you CAN do and not what you CAN'T. Irritating as that sounds, because it really is, it helps make the customer feel better.

It maybe was more of a rant why my bug report was discarded, but I did post there https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1557300#post1557300. 0 response from players, GM or devs.
Only now with the petition there might be a bit of progress, depending if it's just BHs trying or actually supported by QA devs.
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#96 - 2012-08-21 13:51:02 UTC
Lyrrashae wrote:
SpotlessBlade wrote:
[...]
This is not the first time i have petitioned a loss. I have NEVER received a reimbursement, and in those instances the GM's reply made sense. In this case, the reply is simply BS.


I think we've found ^^the problem^^ here.

You know that old fable about the boy who cried wolf, OP?

You should stop wasting the GMs' time, too many useless petitions glutting up their queue pissing them off has gotten people warned, or even banned in the past.





wow, your ability to misconstrue even the most basic written post is... troubling. I never gave any details about previous petitions or how many i may have been hinting at. If you think that demanding proper service for a good/service that you pay for is "wasting their time", i can only suppose that you do not own a car, house, or hell, anything. and I hope that when you move out of your parents basement and earn your own money, that you take companies that treat you like this to task.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#97 - 2012-08-21 13:53:25 UTC
^ Ugh I would hate to live your life.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#98 - 2012-08-21 13:54:24 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:

Most of your reply is exactly how every petition should be handled. Proper care to the customer with reasoning as to why a decision is made. Not a pre-scripted macro'd response that says nothing to the player to make them think any effort was made to help them. THATS the frustrating part.
.



Reminds me of online tech support out of Dell or something where they just copy paste the response out of a word doc with scripted answers, but cannot/will not respond to any questions that stray outside that script. "I'm sorry to hear that Mr. so and so"
LilRemmy
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2012-08-21 14:00:15 UTC
Reading the response from a lot of people in this forum I beg to wonder if most EVE players work as customer support or something.

I hope OP gets his ship back and I understand why he would be upset. The rule that you wont get reimbursed no matter what if in big fleet engagement is bullshit also, because I have seen plenty of people get such reimbursement in those cases, even this year. In fact, there is even a thread about a certain goon fleet receiving reimbursement after filing petition in CAOD.

Off-topic observation, in America you get to own guns to protect yourself against your own government, but if you complain about lack of support on purchased goods or even that your health insurance does not cover your cancer treatment, you are a whiner. I always found that to be, interesting.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#100 - 2012-08-21 14:10:42 UTC
LilRemmy wrote:
I hope OP gets his ship back and I understand why he would be upset. The rule that you wont get reimbursed no matter what if in big fleet engagement is bullshit also, because I have seen plenty of people get such reimbursement in those cases, even this year. In fact, there is even a thread about a certain goon fleet receiving reimbursement after filing petition in CAOD.


There was also the case of a member of Evoke getting a Nyx back after losing it during a fleet engagement.

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