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CCP doesn't keep error logs from server? The logs show nothing.

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dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-08-21 11:27:37 UTC
SpotlessBlade wrote:
If only they could see past their stock responses and actually think about it logically. Of course that would require caring about finding and fixing the issue.


u mad bro?

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#42 - 2012-08-21 11:28:59 UTC
Rutger Janssen wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
Rutger Janssen wrote:
rodyas wrote:
^ What does the error log cover though? out of curiosity. The GM above stated a lot of things hard for CCP to cover, and wondering how far the bug reports go. Maybe the ISP should give that dude his rifter ISK back.

Bug reports will be stuck with bug hunters untill they can reproduce it. Suppsedly some go straight to QA. 20 months ago the communication between QA and GMs sucked, but it seems better now, atleast if you press them. BH and QA policies leave room for improvement which I'm trying to get them to realize.
They'll tell you sometimes what's logged but most of it they won't tell you what's logged due to security. I imagine it would be a long list though.


We have completely redesigned and re-implemented protocols between customer support and QA a little over 2 years ago (taking inertia into account your guess of 20 months is actually quite close to that) and we have seen significant improvements in tackling some of the life issues since. Us GMs are really grateful of the support we are receiving from QA these days; they do a wonderful job considering the complexity and stress of their work.

Does it also go the other way around? QA needed help from GMs. QA took about 8 months to close the issue with it being unable the reproduce when 4 months after the intial bug report and petition a senior gm said he was fully willing to admit something out of the ordinary happened ( but couldn't reimburse).

And by QA I mean bughunters. And I do appreciate their effort, but if they're preventing a bug being fixed or investigated atleast, I have no choice to become a bit annoying and go on the offense.


QA asks customer support for information on issues on a regular basis. Part of our job is to identify trends and compile any data from our petitions that may lead to the discovery or reproduction steps of a bug.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#43 - 2012-08-21 11:29:19 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Spotless, calm a bit, getting oppositional and argumentative isn't going to help


@ Benny I tend to get upset when people who have the obligation to look into issues like this fail to do so. I also get upset when these same people take the easy way out and claim no knowledge of something, which they have the inherent responsibility to be aware of. To top it all off, they talk down to us. Not all the time, sure, but far too often.
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#44 - 2012-08-21 11:31:08 UTC
SpotlessBlade wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:


What you quoted above was NOT in response to your case.

The error you got is cause for reimbursement, but you were part of a fleet engagement which we never reimburse for.




You've got to be kidding me? Basically what you're saying is " yes there was an error on our server side, but because the error happened while you were playing the game as intended, we can't help you." That's the biggest load of crap I have ever heard. What if I was a high sec miner in a belt or missioner, and the same error happened, allowing me to be killed by rats? Then you would see the issue? So if we play the game the way it is designed, we forfeit any assistance when your server takes a dump?


Look, I would love to help out here and research your case, but I cannot do so on the forums. I really advise you to ask for escalation so a senior can explain what happened and why we can or cannot reimburse.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-08-21 11:31:54 UTC
SpotlessBlade wrote:
I tend to get upset when people who have the obligation to look into issues like this fail to do so. I also get upset when these same people take the easy way out and claim no knowledge of something, which they have the inherent responsibility to be aware of. To top it all off, they talk down to us. Not all the time, sure, but far too often.


Don't blame the GM's, no one likes a whiner, it's your own fault.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#46 - 2012-08-21 11:34:32 UTC
dexington wrote:
Don't blame the GM's, no one likes a whiner, it's your own fault.


I will take the bait once... just once, and then I will not reply to you again. I am fully versed in the semi-******** art of forum trolling that you are so poorly attempting to practice. However, you are an amateur and this is not amateur hour. There you go, you got your response.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2012-08-21 11:34:44 UTC
SpotlessBlade wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Spotless, calm a bit, getting oppositional and argumentative isn't going to help


@ Benny I tend to get upset when people who have the obligation to look into issues like this fail to do so. I also get upset when these same people take the easy way out and claim no knowledge of something, which they have the inherent responsibility to be aware of. To top it all off, they talk down to us. Not all the time, sure, but far too often.

I understand, but getting angry is rarely the most effective form of communication

You are a river, a deep ocean. Imagine the wind as it whistles through the trees in the private Mexican villa in your mind.
Rutger Janssen
Chanuur
The Initiative.
#48 - 2012-08-21 11:37:35 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
Rutger Janssen wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
Rutger Janssen wrote:
rodyas wrote:
^ What does the error log cover though? out of curiosity. The GM above stated a lot of things hard for CCP to cover, and wondering how far the bug reports go. Maybe the ISP should give that dude his rifter ISK back.

Bug reports will be stuck with bug hunters untill they can reproduce it. Suppsedly some go straight to QA. 20 months ago the communication between QA and GMs sucked, but it seems better now, atleast if you press them. BH and QA policies leave room for improvement which I'm trying to get them to realize.
They'll tell you sometimes what's logged but most of it they won't tell you what's logged due to security. I imagine it would be a long list though.


We have completely redesigned and re-implemented protocols between customer support and QA a little over 2 years ago (taking inertia into account your guess of 20 months is actually quite close to that) and we have seen significant improvements in tackling some of the life issues since. Us GMs are really grateful of the support we are receiving from QA these days; they do a wonderful job considering the complexity and stress of their work.

Does it also go the other way around? QA needed help from GMs. QA took about 8 months to close the issue with it being unable the reproduce when 4 months after the intial bug report and petition a senior gm said he was fully willing to admit something out of the ordinary happened ( but couldn't reimburse).

And by QA I mean bughunters. And I do appreciate their effort, but if they're preventing a bug being fixed or investigated atleast, I have no choice to become a bit annoying and go on the offense.


QA asks customer support for information on issues on a regular basis. Part of our job is to identify trends and compile any data from our petitions that may lead to the discovery or reproduction steps of a bug.


And what if you only get a petition about it once a year? Because server had a hickup and stuff is lost without a trace eventhough that process should have been logged? About 6 GMs, including you replied to the petitions and yet BH insisted on reproducing it. Yet nothing seemingly was done about it. Someone experienced the same issue 6 months ago, maybe it's been fixed because he has connections, but it still proves my point.
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#49 - 2012-08-21 11:37:52 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
Look, I would love to help out here and research your case, but I cannot do so on the forums. I really advise you to ask for escalation so a senior can explain what happened and why we can or cannot reimburse.


So why have you bothered getting involved at all, giving all sorts of improbable and unlike possibilities in the forum thread? If you would really like to get involved, then get involved. You're a senior GM? Great news! I escalated for a senior GM hours ago. So instead of spending hours replying to forum threads, you can actually help, like you claim you'd love to do.
Luis Graca
#50 - 2012-08-21 11:38:54 UTC
I wonder wend will people start say ccp devs and gm's are all goons
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#51 - 2012-08-21 11:41:44 UTC
Luis Graca wrote:
I wonder wend will people start say ccp devs and gm's are all goons



I really couldn't care less if GM Homonoia is the Mittani. He/She/They claim to want to help, then they should help right? Surely CCP gives its' senior GMs the resources necessary to research customer complaints and make decisive decisions?
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#52 - 2012-08-21 11:48:23 UTC
SpotlessBlade wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
Look, I would love to help out here and research your case, but I cannot do so on the forums. I really advise you to ask for escalation so a senior can explain what happened and why we can or cannot reimburse.


So why have you bothered getting involved at all, giving all sorts of improbable and unlike possibilities in the forum thread? If you would really like to get involved, then get involved. You're a senior GM? Great news! I escalated for a senior GM hours ago. So instead of spending hours replying to forum threads, you can actually help, like you claim you'd love to do.


It will be picked up in due time. We go through petitions in the order they came in and when your petition is at the front of the queue I may be the one to pick it up, or maybe it will be another senior. I am afraid that this is as far as I can go into things right here. I am glad to hear that you escalated the case and I hope that, whichever senior picks it up, will be able to provide you with a clear and satisfying explanation.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2012-08-21 11:49:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
SpotlessBlade wrote:
I searched client side as well, and game logs contain nothing.

you are in NCdot... ask one of your super pilots how to get good client logs that stand a chance at being accepted in petitions (so you can do it right next time).

(I honestly can't help you because I don't have client access atm and don't know the directions off the top of my head but the Ctrl+Shift+Alt+M monitor has an event log that can apparently be used to impress GMs, your alliance's super pilots have a high chance of knowing the specifics as writing effective reimbursement petitions is part of their skillset)

.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#54 - 2012-08-21 12:03:58 UTC
SpotlessBlade wrote:
Luis Graca wrote:
I wonder wend will people start say ccp devs and gm's are all goons



I really couldn't care less if GM Homonoia is the Mittani. He/She/They claim to want to help, then they should help right? Surely CCP gives its' senior GMs the resources necessary to research customer complaints and make decisive decisions?


You should relax and calm down. A senior GM is on the way to help you out.

They totally know the pain and frustration you are going through. They have lost just as you have lost, rifters in the midst of a great battle. They know what it is like to lose 3-4 million ISK, and all to the server going ******. They will come rescue you and hopefully reimburse your 4 million ISK or at the very least tell you they feel real bad about your rifter loss. They might even say they feel bad that the goons are taking your moons away, and how your alliances has had a series of downturns for the last two years. They might even say they feel bad, that normal conversations make you feel paranoid, and that they are treating you as if uneducated.

This will all turn out well, just have some faith.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#55 - 2012-08-21 12:06:40 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
the Ctrl+Shift+Alt+M monitor has an event log that can apparently be used to impress GMs


It seems to clear log after every restart... i can't go past today.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2012-08-21 12:10:51 UTC
Rodyas I said that stuff earlier but it's been pretty difficult to remain sympathetic to our mate here. I'm sorry.
Serena Serene
Heretic University
#57 - 2012-08-21 12:11:18 UTC
OP.. you're upset because you lost your ship due to circumstances which shouldn't have happened. That's alright so far.

But you're acting like a jerk.
A GM went out of her way to try to explain what possibly could have happened. She wouldn't have to do that. It could have been her lunchbreak or other free time she used to read the forums and just decided to give you some info about the processes in the background.

What she's saying is that there is a rule. A rule they have to obey. Which states they can't reimburse you for losses in large fleet battles. I don't know the reasoning behind that, but that's not the point.
Instead of asking in a sensible way you're acting like a child which had his lollipop taken away and lash out. At a person who tried to help you without the need to do so. Who continued to give you advice.

What she said about "the logs show nothing" makes sense and she more than once stated it wasn't a direct response to your OP but to people talking about this meme afterwards, yet you still chose to take it personal.

If you are so upset that you're acting like this, you should take a break, go out, run an hour, get rid of your aggression.
If you are like this even if not upset, you aren't a very likeable person.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#58 - 2012-08-21 12:16:05 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Rodyas I said that stuff earlier but it's been pretty difficult to remain sympathetic to our mate here. I'm sorry.


Yeah true, but he is so weird, its so fun to watch, like a case study. Might call it rifter psychosis, or rifter loss induced psychosis with delusions of education. (At least he has better subjects to e-peen about then most people though) Hopefully CCP hired a cloned Freud turned public relations as a GM to help sort this all out.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
Anslo
Scope Works
#59 - 2012-08-21 12:25:34 UTC
Your collective hate, anger, and tears sustain me...

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#60 - 2012-08-21 12:26:09 UTC  |  Edited by: dexington
The logs don't show anything because it never happened, he is the stereotype lying space poor whiner. Long story short, he was stupid enough to undock a ship he could not afford to loose. The logs show he didn't scout the gate before he jump, and lost his last drake, and how he can't make any isk running level 4 missions.

Someone please send him a new drake so he will stop crying.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.