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CCP doesn't keep error logs from server? The logs show nothing.

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Rutger Janssen
Chanuur
The Initiative.
#21 - 2012-08-21 10:38:13 UTC
rodyas wrote:
^ What does the error log cover though? out of curiosity. The GM above stated a lot of things hard for CCP to cover, and wondering how far the bug reports go. Maybe the ISP should give that dude his rifter ISK back.

Bug reports will be stuck with bug hunters untill they can reproduce it. Suppsedly some go straight to QA. 20 months ago the communication between QA and GMs sucked, but it seems better now, atleast if you press them. BH and QA policies leave room for improvement which I'm trying to get them to realize.
They'll tell you sometimes what's logged but most of it they won't tell you what's logged due to security. I imagine it would be a long list though.
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#22 - 2012-08-21 10:41:58 UTC  |  Edited by: rodyas
Thanks, was mostly wondering if they log problems, that would give a chance to correct the game for it to go away. But with the GMs remarks, seems like that is only a 20% chance to solve a problem.

But with ISP and other things, being good, if they are good, then that chance could go up higher. So as long as other companies doing a good job, then the bug report should work. Suppose other companies have bug workers as well. But just so many companies out there all together. I almost would just kiss that rifter ISK goodbye.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#23 - 2012-08-21 10:53:07 UTC
rodyas wrote:
^ What does the error log cover though? out of curiosity. The GM above stated a lot of things hard for CCP to cover, and wondering how far the bug reports go. Maybe the ISP should give that dude his rifter ISK back.


Anything outside the CCP owned servers and network is not covered and we do not accept client side or third party logs for reimbursement requests. They can be faked rather easily.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#24 - 2012-08-21 10:55:35 UTC
dexington wrote:
rodyas wrote:
Maybe the ISP should give that dude his rifter ISK back.


Agree, CCP should provide reimbursement for network latency related issues. Then i would attach a big fat red button to my keyboard, that would enable ipfw delay rules for some good old rubberband lag.


This, or pulling your network cable, pulling the power plug, resetting your router, or any number of more elaborate tricks that are not all that hard to pull off. All we see is a disconnect or some latency. I know that it really sucks when you lose your ship due to things outside your control, but as these circumstances are very easily faked we simply cannot reimburse in these cases.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#25 - 2012-08-21 10:59:59 UTC
SpotlessBlade wrote:

@ GM Homonoia: As above, I in no way said I crashed. I didn't. I jumped through a gate. Everything loaded just fine, in real time. But there was a big box on my scree with a server side error message. That in NO way describes what you adressed in your post. Your snide comments about not having access to every device on the internet are uncalled for. Once again, CCP employees feel the need to make disparaging comments toward people who in the end pay their salaries. If all you can do is be smug or condescending, then stay out of the discussion. The fact is that the message implied that the issue was out of my control. My client had zero issues, and my ISP was fine. I didnt get loaded onto the server in a way that I could affect changes. That's the facts of this case. But it was just dismissed by your staff.

This is not the first time i have petitioned a loss. I have NEVER received a reimbursement, and in those instances the GM's reply made sense. In this case, the reply is simply BS.


You seem to misinterpret my post. The second part of my post (the part about disconnection and latency) was not in response to your description of events, it was in response to the "the logs show nothing meme".

In your particular case you were likely denied reimbursement because it was a large fleet engagement. The symptoms you describe are actually cause for reimbursement if they happen outside a large fleet engagement (if we can verify the cause, of course).

I was in no way trying to be smug or condescending. I was simply trying to clarify where the meme "the logs show nothing" came from; which was bad communication in the past on our part.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#26 - 2012-08-21 11:03:15 UTC
Rutger Janssen wrote:
rodyas wrote:
^ What does the error log cover though? out of curiosity. The GM above stated a lot of things hard for CCP to cover, and wondering how far the bug reports go. Maybe the ISP should give that dude his rifter ISK back.

Bug reports will be stuck with bug hunters untill they can reproduce it. Suppsedly some go straight to QA. 20 months ago the communication between QA and GMs sucked, but it seems better now, atleast if you press them. BH and QA policies leave room for improvement which I'm trying to get them to realize.
They'll tell you sometimes what's logged but most of it they won't tell you what's logged due to security. I imagine it would be a long list though.


We have completely redesigned and re-implemented protocols between customer support and QA a little over 2 years ago (taking inertia into account your guess of 20 months is actually quite close to that) and we have seen significant improvements in tackling some of the life issues since. Us GMs are really grateful of the support we are receiving from QA these days; they do a wonderful job considering the complexity and stress of their work.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
zictob
Synergy Cybernetics
#27 - 2012-08-21 11:05:54 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
dexington wrote:
rodyas wrote:
Maybe the ISP should give that dude his rifter ISK back.


Agree, CCP should provide reimbursement for network latency related issues. Then i would attach a big fat red button to my keyboard, that would enable ipfw delay rules for some good old rubberband lag.


This, or pulling your network cable, pulling the power plug, resetting your router, or any number of more elaborate tricks that are not all that hard to pull off. All we see is a disconnect or some latency. I know that it really sucks when you lose your ship due to things outside your control, but as these circumstances are very easily faked we simply cannot reimburse in these cases.


ok tell me pls? where me fault in this situation :
my alt was at cover ops ship in cloak. 100% cloak was on. and it was animation at ship that he cloaked. i was 250km out from gate. there was netral camp at gate. and after some time i see that inter alight on me. and when he was 20 km near me he start scramble me. AND IT WAS cloaking animation on my ship. after that i write petition and gm answer me : "server works fine (lol y ). all logs ok......"
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#28 - 2012-08-21 11:07:43 UTC
zictob wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
dexington wrote:
rodyas wrote:
Maybe the ISP should give that dude his rifter ISK back.


Agree, CCP should provide reimbursement for network latency related issues. Then i would attach a big fat red button to my keyboard, that would enable ipfw delay rules for some good old rubberband lag.


This, or pulling your network cable, pulling the power plug, resetting your router, or any number of more elaborate tricks that are not all that hard to pull off. All we see is a disconnect or some latency. I know that it really sucks when you lose your ship due to things outside your control, but as these circumstances are very easily faked we simply cannot reimburse in these cases.


ok tell me pls? where me fault in this situation :
my alt was at cover ops ship in cloak. 100% cloak was on. and it was animation at ship that he cloaked. i was 250km out from gate. there was netral camp at gate. and after some time i see that inter alight on me. and when he was 20 km near me he start scramble me. AND IT WAS cloaking animation on my ship. after that i write petition and gm answer me : "server works fine (lol y ). all logs ok......"


Impossible for me to comment on without studying the case in detail. I can think of at least 3 possibilities off the bat.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2012-08-21 11:10:45 UTC  |  Edited by: SpotlessBlade
GM Homonoia wrote:
We have to deny many reimbursement requests due to issues outside our server (connection issues, ISP issues, a hop/node falling over somewhere on the internet, a user's PC crashing or losing connection, a client error or bug, etc). These things are, obviously, not logged on our server because they don't happen on our server. Unfortunately we do not have unlimited access to every device connected to the internet (if we had I think many government agencies would be interested on how we would be doing that) and thus we have no way to verify what happens on any machine outside our own.


Man, if you don't think that what I just quoted doesn't make it sound like you think you're talking to uneducated plebes, then you need some public relations refreshers. Do you really think that your player base, internet gamers, many of whom are extremely tech related, don't know the difference between a server side bug and ISP issues? Get real.

It's simple. ISP and PC were functioning properly, that can be verified on your server. Did I drop connection? NO. So that rules out the ISP scenario. Surely you have logs of incoming connections.

Next the error message that I reproduced in my petition must be triggered by a limited number of issues, right? So that narrows it down considerably. Are any of those triggers client caused? Unlikely. And that message can't be triggered by an ISP connection drop, or i would have never received it.

Pathetic excuses from a lazy and inept attempt to pacify an understandably frustrated customer.
Rutger Janssen
Chanuur
The Initiative.
#30 - 2012-08-21 11:10:55 UTC
To OP, ask the GM if that error is thrown by the client or server. If it's from the server ask him if it should have been logged. If so, there's another bug in the logging system.
In any case file a bug report about getting the error and hope BH don't filter it because they can't reproduce. The error would make you think that devs want to look at the issue.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#31 - 2012-08-21 11:13:23 UTC
What GM Homonoia is trying to say is 'The logs show nothing' with out actually saying it.

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SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2012-08-21 11:15:03 UTC
Rutger Janssen wrote:
To OP, ask the GM if that error is thrown by the client or server. If it's from the server ask him if it should have been logged. If so, there's another bug in the logging system.
In any case file a bug report about getting the error and hope BH don't filter it because they can't reproduce. The error would make you think that devs want to look at the issue.



@rutger: According to their response to my original petition, it would appear that they have no cache of when the server throws the error. OFC i'm not allowed to reproduce the GM's response to the petition for fear of their heavy handed ban hammer. To paraphrase, however, they say they don't record when that message is triggered. So if there is an issue, finding it will be like the proverbial needle in a haystack, as there is no flag on the faulty request.
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#33 - 2012-08-21 11:15:50 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
What GM Homonoia is trying to say is 'The logs show nothing' with out actually saying it.



Exactly. And then he tries to redirect to ISP nonsense like he thinks I must be wearing my "special" helmet.
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#34 - 2012-08-21 11:16:28 UTC
SpotlessBlade wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
We have to deny many reimbursement requests due to issues outside our server (connection issues, ISP issues, a hop/node falling over somewhere on the internet, a user's PC crashing or losing connection, a client error or bug, etc). These things are, obviously, not logged on our server because they don't happen on our server. Unfortunately we do not have unlimited access to every device connected to the internet (if we had I think many government agencies would be interested on how we would be doing that) and thus we have no way to verify what happens on any machine outside our own.


Man, if you don't think that what I just quoted doesn't make it sound like you think you're talking to uneducated plebes, then you need some public relations refreshers. Do you really think that your player base, internet gamers, many of whom are extremely tech related, don't know the difference between a server side bug and ISP issues? Get real.

It's simple. ISP and PC were functioning properly, that can be verified on your server. Did I drop connection? NO. So that rules out the ISP scenario. Surely you have logs of incoming connections.

Next the error message that I reproduced in my petition must be triggered by a limited number of issues, right? So that narrows it down considerably. Are any of those triggers client caused? Unlikely. And that message can't be triggered by an ISP connection drop, or i would have never received it.

Pathetic excuses from a lazy and inept attempt to pacify an understandably frustrated customer.


What you quoted above was NOT in response to your case.

The error you got is cause for reimbursement, but you were part of a fleet engagement which we never reimburse for.

The part you quoted has NO bearing on your case whatsoever; it is simply a clarification of the "logs don't show anything" meme and the issues that often accompany it.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
Rutger Janssen
Chanuur
The Initiative.
#35 - 2012-08-21 11:18:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Rutger Janssen
GM Homonoia wrote:
Rutger Janssen wrote:
rodyas wrote:
^ What does the error log cover though? out of curiosity. The GM above stated a lot of things hard for CCP to cover, and wondering how far the bug reports go. Maybe the ISP should give that dude his rifter ISK back.

Bug reports will be stuck with bug hunters untill they can reproduce it. Suppsedly some go straight to QA. 20 months ago the communication between QA and GMs sucked, but it seems better now, atleast if you press them. BH and QA policies leave room for improvement which I'm trying to get them to realize.
They'll tell you sometimes what's logged but most of it they won't tell you what's logged due to security. I imagine it would be a long list though.


We have completely redesigned and re-implemented protocols between customer support and QA a little over 2 years ago (taking inertia into account your guess of 20 months is actually quite close to that) and we have seen significant improvements in tackling some of the life issues since. Us GMs are really grateful of the support we are receiving from QA these days; they do a wonderful job considering the complexity and stress of their work.

Does it also go the other way around? QA needed help from GMs. QA took about 8 months to close the issue with it being unable the reproduce when 4 months after the intial bug report and petition a senior gm said he was fully willing to admit something out of the ordinary happened ( but couldn't reimburse).

And by QA I mean bughunters. And I do appreciate their effort, but if they're preventing a bug being fixed or investigated atleast, I have no choice to become a bit annoying and go on the offense.
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#36 - 2012-08-21 11:20:50 UTC  |  Edited by: SpotlessBlade
GM Homonoia wrote:


What you quoted above was NOT in response to your case.

The error you got is cause for reimbursement, but you were part of a fleet engagement which we never reimburse for.




You've got to be kidding me? Basically what you're saying is " yes there was an error on our server side, but because the error happened while you were playing the game as intended, we can't help you." That's the biggest load of crap I have ever heard. What if I was a high sec miner in a belt or missioner, and the same error happened, allowing me to be killed by rats? Then you would see the issue? So if we play the game the way it is designed, we forfeit any assistance when your server takes a dump?
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2012-08-21 11:23:05 UTC
Spotless, calm a bit, getting oppositional and argumentative isn't going to help
Rutger Janssen
Chanuur
The Initiative.
#38 - 2012-08-21 11:23:28 UTC
SpotlessBlade wrote:
Rutger Janssen wrote:
To OP, ask the GM if that error is thrown by the client or server. If it's from the server ask him if it should have been logged. If so, there's another bug in the logging system.
In any case file a bug report about getting the error and hope BH don't filter it because they can't reproduce. The error would make you think that devs want to look at the issue.



@rutger: According to their response to my original petition, it would appear that they have no cache of when the server throws the error. OFC i'm not allowed to reproduce the GM's response to the petition for fear of their heavy handed ban hammer. To paraphrase, however, they say they don't record when that message is triggered. So if there is an issue, finding it will be like the proverbial needle in a haystack, as there is no flag on the faulty request.

If fatal errors are not worth logging, I wonder what is? Genocidal errors? In any case, there's a bug there somewhere that needs fixing :)
SpotlessBlade
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#39 - 2012-08-21 11:26:08 UTC
Rutger Janssen wrote:
[ If fatal errors are not worth logging, I wonder what is? Genocidal errors? In any case, there's a bug there somewhere that needs fixing :)



If only they could see past their stock responses and actually think about it logically. Of course that would require caring about finding and fixing the issue.
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#40 - 2012-08-21 11:27:33 UTC
SpotlessBlade wrote:
Rutger Janssen wrote:
To OP, ask the GM if that error is thrown by the client or server. If it's from the server ask him if it should have been logged. If so, there's another bug in the logging system.
In any case file a bug report about getting the error and hope BH don't filter it because they can't reproduce. The error would make you think that devs want to look at the issue.



@rutger: According to their response to my original petition, it would appear that they have no cache of when the server throws the error. OFC i'm not allowed to reproduce the GM's response to the petition for fear of their heavy handed ban hammer. To paraphrase, however, they say they don't record when that message is triggered. So if there is an issue, finding it will be like the proverbial needle in a haystack, as there is no flag on the faulty request.


In most cases (there are several possible causes that can trigger this) that message is triggered it has a very clear (and logged) cause. Without looking into this case it does seem that this is mostly a communication issue. I advise you to simply ask for escalation on this case and a senior will then try to clarify what has happened, however I would be very surprised if this is anything but an error in communication.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master