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afk cloaking ??
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Emperor Salazar
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#41 - 2011-10-13 12:59:53 UTC
Post with your main.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#42 - 2011-10-13 13:18:16 UTC
Sloppyslug wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Sloppyslug wrote:
So little faith in POS bashing :)
Nah, it's more of an understanding of game mechanics tbh.


Just lol, your thought of its as impossible to take down a POS as it is to find a cloaked frig in billions M^3 space.
I've neither thought it, or said it.

Sloppyslug wrote:
But ofc you will know so much better than me that there is no counter to POS', just as random SP cloaked frigs.
There are counters to a pos, but they are not instant counters and they require team work. Much like killing AFK cloakers when they become active. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Herold Oldtimer
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2011-10-13 13:26:07 UTC
I thinks its easier to suggest a way to tell if a player is afk or not. For instance greying out his name if he havent done anything in fifteen minutes or something.

"Look his name is greyed out, he's afk! Quick set up traps while he is unaware!"

Personally I am for a change in the way cloaking works at the moment, mainly because it currently gives the user a "station" away from home, giving you complete safety in enemy systems. I hope that was not the intended feature when this module was implemented.

If a change is done to the module then it should not be so big it disrupts the way an "active cloaker" uses it.

And if it is in a way of a counter it should be bloody expencive to use.

Some changes I support currently:

Cap drainage. The time I think is most reasonable for now could be 1 hour. Can also accept 2 hours.

Module timer. Here i think it should be around 30 minutes with a "cooldown" timer aswell 2-4 minutes might be a reasonable time.

Station or tower decloaker. Should be expencive as hell, and have a 30 minutes activation time with a system wide warning. Giving the cloaker some time to get out. decloaking period should be half of activation time.
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#44 - 2011-10-13 13:43:55 UTC
With current cloaking mechanics AFK cloaking is necessary because you are visible in local. Remove cloaked ships from local and then we can discuss next how to support detection of cloaked ships. Even then the detection of cloaked ships should take a) time and b) bind heavy resources if the ship is cloaked up far up in space. If you can detect a cloaked ship by just pulsing a ping or popping out some probes then you put the whole cloaking concept into the trash can and will just result in making those modules mandatory to all fleets.
cvcdsas
Doomheim
#45 - 2011-10-13 13:59:11 UTC
Mag's wrote:
[quote=Sloppyslug]

There is a counter to cloaking, but what you are asking for is extra power on top of the already powerful local intel tool. That is not a balanced approach.



Oh cool I missed that, what exactly is the counter for cloaking?? I didnt realise there was actually a counter to a random person sitting in middle of space cloaked for 23.5 hours per day for weeks at a time. I understand you might be able to catch someone on way into system but once they are in and cloaked to my knowledge there is nothing you can do about it although i would be really grateful uf you could share what it is i missed.

Someone being able to log in with absolutely no risk from downtime to downtime for me is an issue. Even if you had to do something to maintain cloak every 4 hours or even 6 hours that wouldnt affect ability to provide intelligence or what ever other arguement people have for people being able to cloak for 23.5 hours per day. The issue is most of time it isnt about intelligence or anything else its purely a way of providing grief. Im all for people being able to provide grief and play game any way they choose I just think that everytime you undock there has to be a degree of risk. Using arguement that being docked is risk free doesnt hold - being docked is supposed to be only safe thing you can do in eve or am i missing something else??
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#46 - 2011-10-13 14:15:01 UTC
Counter to cloaking are:

1. Stay aligned: A cloaker (except for StealthBomber) has a minimum 5 seconds delay after uncloaking. So if you are aligned you jused press the warp button once you see him uncloaking next to you. StealthBombers don't have this delay, but they are so fragile that you can pop them with just a set of small drones.

2. Have friends in your system: Cloakers have not much dps, so if you don't manage to escape by warping away you usually have more than enough time to call your friends to chase him of or kill him before you are really in danger of dying.
cvcdsas
Doomheim
#47 - 2011-10-13 14:28:18 UTC
Meditril wrote:
Counter to cloaking are:

1. Stay aligned: A cloaker (except for StealthBomber) has a minimum 5 seconds delay after uncloaking. So if you are aligned you jused press the warp button once you see him uncloaking next to you. StealthBombers don't have this delay, but they are so fragile that you can pop them with just a set of small drones.

2. Have friends in your system: Cloakers have not much dps, so if you don't manage to escape by warping away you usually have more than enough time to call your friends to chase him of or kill him before you are really in danger of dying.



Except that doesnt work. I have seen people be killed in their nice shiney battelships by the little fragile bombers aligned or not not to mention the cynos. I would accept the idea of having to fight with the cloak person after he has been AFK for 5 days and decides to actually do something. I would even take back my suggestion / arguement if it was possible that they couldnt light cynos as soon as they decloak.
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#48 - 2011-10-13 14:33:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Meditril
Cynos are a topic of its own and have nothing to do with cloaking. There is already a discussion about cynos should need a warm up time before someone is able to jump in which would exactly resolve the above mentioned problem.

If you get killed in your BattleShip by a solo StealthBomber then you deserve to die, sorry. Solo StealthBombers are glass canons and they are easy to handle if you do it properly.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#49 - 2011-10-13 14:43:03 UTC
cvcdsas wrote:
Mag's wrote:
[quote=Sloppyslug]

There is a counter to cloaking, but what you are asking for is extra power on top of the already powerful local intel tool. That is not a balanced approach.



Oh cool I missed that, what exactly is the counter for cloaking?? I didnt realise there was actually a counter to a random person sitting in middle of space cloaked for 23.5 hours per day for weeks at a time. I understand you might be able to catch someone on way into system but once they are in and cloaked to my knowledge there is nothing you can do about it although i would be really grateful uf you could share what it is i missed.

Someone being able to log in with absolutely no risk from downtime to downtime for me is an issue. Even if you had to do something to maintain cloak every 4 hours or even 6 hours that wouldnt affect ability to provide intelligence or what ever other arguement people have for people being able to cloak for 23.5 hours per day. The issue is most of time it isnt about intelligence or anything else its purely a way of providing grief. Im all for people being able to provide grief and play game any way they choose I just think that everytime you undock there has to be a degree of risk. Using arguement that being docked is risk free doesnt hold - being docked is supposed to be only safe thing you can do in eve or am i missing something else??
The fact that you are avoiding the real issue here (local) speaks volumes.

Cloaking has counters, but why would you need those counters to work when they are AFK in a safe spot? If you are misinterpreting the instant intel local is providing you, or you haven't taken measure to lower the risk to yourself when they attack, then that is your problem.

An AFK cloaker cannot force you to stop ratting, refit your ship, form gangs, bait him, move systems, use stargates, activate modules, use cyno jammers etc etc. The only one stopping you doing anything while he is AFK in local, is yourself.

While local is providing instant intel, AFK cloaking is a perfectly viable mechanic to try and subvert it. But my guess is that you hate the thought of losing local and therefore don't wish to discuss it.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#50 - 2011-10-13 15:10:06 UTC
What are you guys thinking about this proposal?
cvcdsas
Doomheim
#51 - 2011-10-13 15:14:58 UTC
[[/quote]The fact that you are avoiding the real issue here (local) speaks volumes.

Cloaking has counters, but why would you need those counters to work when they are AFK in a safe spot? If you are misinterpreting the instant intel local is providing you, or you haven't taken measure to lower the risk to yourself when they attack, then that is your problem.

An AFK cloaker cannot force you to stop ratting, refit your ship, form gangs, bait him, move systems, use stargates, activate modules, use cyno jammers etc etc. The only one stopping you doing anything while he is AFK in local, is yourself.

While local is providing instant intel, AFK cloaking is a perfectly viable mechanic to try and subvert it. But my guess is that you hate the thought of losing local and therefore don't wish to discuss it.[/quote]


Not avoiding issue at all. Couldnt care less if we had a local channel. To be honest I would be open to that being removed also. I spend very little time ratting I actually play game to kill people - killing people more difficult when you jump into local and they can see you. Not having a local channel would be nice at times. Not quite sure how the two issues are linked if im completely honest though - not sure we have AFK cloakies because we have a local channel.

Removing local would mean you have to be careful but anyone hunting in a system is just as likely to warp into your pvp fleet and therefore runs the same risks. AFK cloakies have no risks and still would have no risk if there was no local channel.
Jace Errata
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#52 - 2011-10-13 15:15:04 UTC
I don't see how AFK cloaking is an issue*. If he's AFK he's not a threat, and when he stops being AFK, well, then it's time to just fight him normally.


*Never been to 0.0 in my life.

tweeten

One day they woke me up so I could live forever

It's such a shame the same will never happen to you
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#53 - 2011-10-13 15:57:43 UTC
Baneken wrote:

Because you paid billions of upgrading sov to be turned useless because you cannot use the system on anything useful when there's some fagget sitting 23/7 with a cloaky rapier.


so, people may not sit in a system, because YOU DECIDED to build upgrades there making the system for your exclusive use?? Seems not valid.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#54 - 2011-10-13 16:30:45 UTC
Meditril wrote:
What are you guys thinking about this proposal?


It sucks. You should be embarassed for even linking to it.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#55 - 2011-10-13 16:53:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
cvcdsas wrote:
Not avoiding issue at all. Couldnt care less if we had a local channel. To be honest I would be open to that being removed also. I spend very little time ratting I actually play game to kill people - killing people more difficult when you jump into local and they can see you. Not having a local channel would be nice at times. Not quite sure how the two issues are linked if im completely honest though - not sure we have AFK cloakies because we have a local channel.

Removing local would mean you have to be careful but anyone hunting in a system is just as likely to warp into your pvp fleet and therefore runs the same risks. AFK cloakies have no risks and still would have no risk if there was no local channel.
Without local, AFK cloaking would be pointless as a psychological warfare tool. This is why Ingvar Angst idea works, as it removes the use of local whilst cloaked.
Ask yourself this, what tool are they using to interact with and try to affect you whilst AFK? When you know this, the issue really is whether you allow yourself to be affected or not. AFK cloakers cannot make you do anything.

Would people still AFK cloak without local? Sure they would, but not for the reasons they do today. Cause and effect, local being the cause and AFKing being the effect. You don't even need a cloak for this to work, that point alone should indicate where the issue is.

But local is going to change, but we have yet to see how and what changes will occur. If your all seeing eye is removed in it's current form, then maybe cloaking should be looked at. But with any change to cloaking, you need to take into account other situational environments such as WH space.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#56 - 2011-10-13 17:03:42 UTC
I like how CCP Phantom closes the afk cloak whine spam, this is new and hasnt been done in the past.
I guess they are annoyed by the whiners recently.
Jovan Geldon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2011-10-13 17:10:34 UTC
I could set my alarm clock by the regularity of these whine threads Roll
Baaldor
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#58 - 2011-10-13 17:15:00 UTC
Jovan Geldon wrote:
I could set my alarm clock by the regularity of these whine threads Roll


Kind of like a bowel movement.
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#59 - 2011-10-13 17:25:52 UTC
Since CCP Phantom could not tell the difference between the two threads:

Quote:
So in this day and age it is my opinion that the so called ~elite PvPers~ got terribly spoiled by the Covert Ops Cloaking Device. In essence, they love the thrill of the hunt, but they tremble in fear and/or go into denial mode at the slight possibility of one day being the hunted themselves.

I have no problem in flying through space in a fast ship with no cloak and fool the hunters for hours who simply cannot probe me down, but most people nowadays seem to think that unless you have a cloak, you're dead meat. And both me and a very large part of your playerbase (albeit most for different motivations) feel that this needs to change, and that we need a method however troublesome of probing down and finding a cloaked ship.


I'm not going to invent ideas because these have been discussed ad-nauseum and scorned by people who hold double-standards, however one idea in particular i somewhat liked is that of a T2 probe that, when 100% result is achieved, drops you within 10 to 30km of the cloaked ship. What i like about it is that its ridiculously easy for the cloaked pilot to prevent being detected by just A) warping to a different safespot still cloaked or B) move around a little bit. However, unless the pilot ACTS, he is going to be found. (Even if he is moving/orbiting something). It goes perfectly well with that most of us have been taught that the only 100% safe place in EVE is inside a station, and it can hardly be considered a nerf. It will only add to the game, and make cloak-camping a system that much more fun and rewarding.



So TL;DR. Pilots who fly cloak ships today and dislike any changes to the status-quo are spoiled brats, double-standard holders that like to pose as badass hunters, but cant possibly fathom the idea of being the hunted themselves. They want to hunt the perfect target while being 100% safe, and that is simply pathetic.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#60 - 2011-10-13 17:34:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ingvar Angst
Renan Ruivo wrote:

... however one idea in particular i somewhat liked is that of a T2 probe that, when 100% result is achieved, drops you within 10 to 30km of the cloaked ship. What i like about it is that its ridiculously easy for the cloaked pilot to prevent being detected by just A) warping to a different safespot still cloaked or B) move around a little bit. However, unless the pilot ACTS, he is going to be found. (Even if he is moving/orbiting something). It goes perfectly well with that most of us have been taught that the only 100% safe place in EVE is inside a station, and it can hardly be considered a nerf. It will only add to the game, and make cloak-camping a system that much more fun and rewarding.


Here's where the idea completely fails.

Wormholes.

In wormholes, being undetectable while cloaked is a vital part of the whole. It's necessary, for example, to have your cloaked ship parked for days or even weeks in an enemy system while gathering intel in preparations for an op. If you allow any type of probes (or other means) to be able to detect cloaked ships, you're completely changing the entire wormhole paradigm to the point that it will be almost a requirement to have someone parked somewhere with these probes out constantly scanning the system for the slightest whiff of a cloaked vessel. You would, effectively, nerf the living hell out of the inherent dangers of wormhole living.

There's a lot more involved with regards to cloaking than the shivering coward docked up in a null sec station afraid of the boogieman he sees in local. There is an entire separate Eve culture that will be damaged by such a short-sighted and ill thought out method.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.