These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Warfare & Tactics

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

Let's Fix This Plexing Issue in FW
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#21 - 2012-08-20 16:42:00 UTC
Dan Carter Murray wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Queue Super Chair's post:
1. Kill all rats requirement
2. Timer reset to zero
/thread
yes to #1 no to #2
Dude, I don't think you understand the meaning of "/thread" Big smile
And yeah, meant timer counts down back to zero, not quick instantaneous reset.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#22 - 2012-08-20 16:44:50 UTC
Amett wrote:
yeah fw is really a great chance for pvp or roleplaying and this massive focus on farming is not the way forward. i dont have a solution but i dont think it would be hard to fix, ccp are smart enough after all :)

The massive focus on farming is here because people prefer to point out flaws rather than positives. There is massive levels of pvp, and as for the role play stuff. Role play corporations/alliances for the most part have more fun posting on IGS than actually playing the game. (with the notable exception of Electus Matari and Jade)
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#23 - 2012-08-20 17:12:35 UTC
Kill all rats is something that just seems so right. I'm amazed it wasn't there always.

Elite frigates with webs will stop speed tanking, but may make the minors too hard, I dunno, I don't do minors.
It's not that I'm opposed to speed tanking the dps. But if you can't kill the rats you shouldn't 'win' the LP. That's just basic warfare 101.

Give the button some AI. It would be easy to program a button that remembers "player A" has 14 minutes in this plex, while "player B" has zero minutes here.

Plex's have ship restrictions. It should be easy to restrict frigates from majors as well. If 'kill all rats' were implemented, then I suppose a 4 man fleet of frigs might be acceptable in majors. My point is: Solo frigates in a major is a serious flaw.
drunk asfck
Doomheim
#24 - 2012-08-20 19:15:22 UTC
lets not im enoying the farm lol
David Himmel
Suojelija-Onjin Corporation
#25 - 2012-08-20 21:08:22 UTC
IMO the problems isn't that farming exist but the fact that s worth it. Nobody cap since it would mean losing farming spot. Holding systems isnt worth LP and LP is where the money s at. Not the various discount. One systems every few ly for that is more than enough.

Giving LP for defence would just worsened the problem.

I propose:

1. give a LP wallet to corps.
2. give an LP revenu per systems. More gate in the systeme = more lp. Or just give a fixed rate.
3. Share this LP beetween all the faction warfare corps based on their participation and following some mysterious algorithm .

If you got your math right and it s more worth it to hold system than farm them, the effect of farming should be lessen.
If a corp contributed in capping a system they got a good share. Same if they kill a lot of enemy ships.

If you want to make sure they contributed in capping a system just look at a given time frame before it was done. If they plexed during that time frame they should get a share.

The share given should be on the global result and not in a system by system basis. The corps/alliance could then use the LP as they see fit. Share among their member or just fill their hangar with hookbill who care.

Farmer would still have their lps but it would be more worth it to cap/defend systems and fight.
Lilly Tebron
Unknown Entity.
#26 - 2012-08-21 01:13:54 UTC
David Himmel wrote:
IMO the problems isn't that farming exist but the fact that s worth it. Nobody cap since it would mean losing farming spot. Holding systems isnt worth LP and LP is where the money s at. Not the various discount. One systems every few ly for that is more than enough.

Giving LP for defence would just worsened the problem.

I propose:

1. give a LP wallet to corps.
2. give an LP revenu per systems. More gate in the systeme = more lp. Or just give a fixed rate.
3. Share this LP beetween all the faction warfare corps based on their participation and following some mysterious algorithm .

If you got your math right and it s more worth it to hold system than farm them, the effect of farming should be lessen.
If a corp contributed in capping a system they got a good share. Same if they kill a lot of enemy ships.

If you want to make sure they contributed in capping a system just look at a given time frame before it was done. If they plexed during that time frame they should get a share.

The share given should be on the global result and not in a system by system basis. The corps/alliance could then use the LP as they see fit. Share among their member or just fill their hangar with hookbill who care.

Farmer would still have their lps but it would be more worth it to cap/defend systems and fight.


The shared pool of LP distributed to corps/alliances has good intentions but doesn't really work out in the end, at least in this incarnation. It completely disregards general militia, and puts the onus on the corp directors to reward individual efforts which makes corp politics much more problematic ("Hey, I did more plexing than Player X, why did he get more LP than I did???") Which just leads to more bickering amongst FW players, and Lord knows we have enough of that already.
David Himmel
Suojelija-Onjin Corporation
#27 - 2012-08-21 02:29:40 UTC  |  Edited by: David Himmel
Maybe this is system won't work. But it would be nice to think of any way to make it worth while to cap and hold systems.

As long as it will be more profitable to plex than actually cap, farming will be an issue.

BTW i really like the ideas throwned out there about changing plexing so you have to wipe the rats. Makes way more sense to just run around a fleet shouting "it s mine", If you want to claim sovereignty you have to show it by presence; it's not just for games it's a fact of history.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#28 - 2012-08-21 04:37:38 UTC
David Himmel wrote:
IMO the problems isn't that farming exist but the fact that s worth it. Nobody cap since it would mean losing farming spot. Holding systems isnt worth LP and LP is where the money s at. Not the various discount. One systems every few ly for that is more than enough.

Giving LP for defence would just worsened the problem.

I propose:

1. give a LP wallet to corps.
2. give an LP revenu per systems. More gate in the systeme = more lp. Or just give a fixed rate.
3. Share this LP beetween all the faction warfare corps based on their participation and following some mysterious algorithm .

If you got your math right and it s more worth it to hold system than farm them, the effect of farming should be lessen.
If a corp contributed in capping a system they got a good share. Same if they kill a lot of enemy ships.

If you want to make sure they contributed in capping a system just look at a given time frame before it was done. If they plexed during that time frame they should get a share.

The share given should be on the global result and not in a system by system basis. The corps/alliance could then use the LP as they see fit. Share among their member or just fill their hangar with hookbill who care.

Farmer would still have their lps but it would be more worth it to cap/defend systems and fight.



Not many players will want their LP to go into a corp fund. Hell, most players don't join corps so they can help the corp at all. Most of them join so they can benefit personally.
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#29 - 2012-08-21 08:13:27 UTC
all your solutions seems to be idea like 'NPC SHOULD DEFEND !'

i got two ideas which are may help a bit.

1. you get reduced lp from attacking vulnerable systems.

2. defence plexing does not give lp, but defence plexing adds some lp to system upgrade.

This may give some benefits to defend but it does not give any advantage for those who want to attack and defends same system at same time with opposing militia alts.
Brother ARRMA
Doomheim
#30 - 2012-08-23 16:40:00 UTC
nothing wrong with fw plex's tbh

only problem is all you fags keep crying no matter what changes ccp make

aww are all u ubber pvpers that upset coz u cant kill gunles frigs lmfao go fight ppl who are not pve'ing you pansys i have pvped in many a plex but mostly if opisistion wants to fight its the same through all eve if some1 dnt wana fight they try avoide it u might get lucky and catch and gank them but lets face it thats ganking not real pvp

now keep the whine tears coming about fw plex's they make me lol while i make billions farming fw o and yes i do pvp in fw also
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#31 - 2012-08-23 17:03:17 UTC
Brother ARRMA wrote:
nothing wrong with fw plex's tbh

only problem is all you fags keep crying no matter what changes ccp make

aww are all u ubber pvpers that upset coz u cant kill gunles frigs lmfao go fight ppl who are not pve'ing you pansys i have pvped in many a plex but mostly if opisistion wants to fight its the same through all eve if some1 dnt wana fight they try avoide it u might get lucky and catch and gank them but lets face it thats ganking not real pvp

now keep the whine tears coming about fw plex's they make me lol while i make billions farming fw o and yes i do pvp in fw also



You represent your Faction well sir. How are they doing btw?
Axl Borlara
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2012-08-23 17:32:12 UTC
See: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1835776#post1835776

NPCs
Required in plexs to avoid gun-less plex farming
Need to be killed to avoid gun-less plex farming (may include *low* hp structures as well as ships)
Fairly easy to kill
Aggro only when shot at. Allows pvp to happen in plexs with less interference

Plex Defence
Timer runs back to zero when no attackers are in range. Reduces the willingness of attackers to run away from defenders instead of pvping. Reduces need for defenders to sit at the button doing nothing for no reward
The plex itself should have a (much longer) timer which also runs down when no attackers are in range. It will eventually defensive plex itself away if not attacked.

No defensive plexing requirement avoids the issue of lack of reward.
Plexs (eventually) defend themselves, causing system control to slowly(!) revert to stable.
Attackers need to constantly attack over time to gain system control.
Attackers will have need to be able to shoot things and run away less, providing more pvp with defenders

No system control level above vulnerable. No lp rewards for plexing an already vulnerable system.

That seems to fix the obvious issues while (hopefully) using technically possible and simple options.


For added bonus, increase the benefits of controlling a system based on how long its been controlled for.
Added incentive to keep control of your own systems.
Von Proton
The Ressabiators
#33 - 2012-08-24 19:47:17 UTC
Someone wrote:

Kill all rats inside the plex


Axl Borlara wrote:

No system control level above vulnerable. No lp rewards for plexing an already vulnerable system.



K.I.S.S. = Keep It Simple, Stupid!

You want to conquer territory from the enemy, you have to TAKE DOWN it's defenses. It just makes sense.

Taking out the farmers' ability to take down plexes in one do-it-all, gunless frig in the same system (day after day until it gets flipped) is going to solve the problem.

People want easy - SIMPLE - ways to get rewards. This two changes will take that from them. And they will move on to another isk printer.

K.I.S.S. to you all.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2012-08-24 22:53:57 UTC
get an alliance of 200 to join FW
log in 1 system
get one alts of the other FW side
farm missions
200x LP= zomgzomgomg
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2012-08-25 10:01:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Marc Callan
Apologies if this has been presented before and shot down:

Simply give the plex rats warp scramblers and webifiers (and maybe MWDs). Specifically, give the last NPC spawn five scramming ships. A weaponless farming ship may be able to run down the button, but it won't be able to warp away when it's done, because it would need to destroy the scramming ships. (I specify five scramming ships because that would counter the likeliest counter, unless there's a frigate with five lows that can mount five warp-core stabilizers.)

Advantages (that I can see):

1) Fairly simple to code, I imagine. They took ECM away from all plexes; it shouldn't be too hard to give scrams and webs to one or two classes of rat per faction.

2) Encourages ships to mount weapons: a properly fit ship appropriate to the size of the plex should be able to take out at least the scramming ships.

3) Discourages AFK farming and facilitates PVP: If rats have webs, that wipes out the farming frigates' ability to speed-tank and ignore all the incoming fire. Also, if a ship is scrammed by rats in a plex, it won't be able to simply run away if defending players approach. Combat ships will be able to stand their ground; farming ships under rat scrams will be dead meat.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#36 - 2012-08-25 16:33:28 UTC
Marc Callan wrote:
Apologies if this has been presented before and shot down:

Simply give the plex rats warp scramblers and webifiers (and maybe MWDs). Specifically, give the last NPC spawn five scramming ships. A weaponless farming ship may be able to run down the button, but it won't be able to warp away when it's done, because it would need to destroy the scramming ships. (I specify five scramming ships because that would counter the likeliest counter, unless there's a frigate with five lows that can mount five warp-core stabilizers.)

Advantages (that I can see):

1) Fairly simple to code, I imagine. They took ECM away from all plexes; it shouldn't be too hard to give scrams and webs to one or two classes of rat per faction.

2) Encourages ships to mount weapons: a properly fit ship appropriate to the size of the plex should be able to take out at least the scramming ships.

3) Discourages AFK farming and facilitates PVP: If rats have webs, that wipes out the farming frigates' ability to speed-tank and ignore all the incoming fire. Also, if a ship is scrammed by rats in a plex, it won't be able to simply run away if defending players approach. Combat ships will be able to stand their ground; farming ships under rat scrams will be dead meat.



If the plexer was 'guaranteed scrammed' it would just be a matter of timing to jump in and kill him. Then you would fit your ship different, no scram, and the advantage would be a little OP. Even a solo fight would be terribly out of balance.

Plexing would have to evolve into a fleet activity (blob warfare) , and the solo pilots would leave FW, or never join at all.
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2012-08-25 19:21:56 UTC
"Guaranteed scrammed" is one thing - but armed plexing ships wouldn't have that disadvantage, because they'd presumably counterattack the scramming rats and clear them off the field.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Klown Walk
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2012-08-25 21:39:48 UTC
Is the fw missions still there?
CBOW
The Logs Show Nothing
#39 - 2012-08-26 00:11:53 UTC
The main problem with farmers v pvp in FW is that the jump away when someone comes after them.

Either make it hard for them to run: Give Button Scram and Web

Or punish them for fleeing: Lose LP for warping off


My solution : Would be similar and have it so you cant warp away , once you have aggro'd ie it could be a timer 15 minutes or better yet , you have to kill all the ships before you can move on ! ( locked in mortal Combat ).

But it does need fixing : somedays I wonder if Devs even play the game much or do they just think they know whats best ?
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#40 - 2012-08-27 08:09:48 UTC
The above changes to the mechanics are all terribad ideas.

The problem as framed, is that gunless nanofrigs can orbit buttons to get stupid LPs; that this results in farming of ISK for no risk, and this trickles down to warzone control metagames and exploitation.

Making people kill all the rats to complete = turn it into an effort to bring a ratting fleet of 50 tornados and intensively farm plexes by DPSing rats. Not a solution to gunless plexing frigs, as it can be gamed (think, exploited similarly to the AHARM exploit).

Setting timers to zero when the rats are dead, just an incentive to kill the rats faster.

No.

The solution must adress the problem, not just create more problems.

Place a stasis tower in all Majors.

I have no problem if gunless frigates want to orbit buttons and cap off minor and medium plexes. But a Major has a lot greater influence on system control, and LP's gained, and it is plainly ridiculous that you can farm these in frigates. You can't farm level 4 missions in frigates due to scramming frigs - but I can see how you wouldn't want scramming frigs in FW plexes. A web tower would make it impossible to speed tank a FW plex in a frigate, but for a larger ship (which neccessarily must consider shooting the rats) it could trash the web tower before it gets popped by rats - and can escape the plex if bounced or the tank fails.

You could put neut towers in, too, which would essentially dump the cap of anything that tries soloing. If you have more than one ship, of course, someone can kite and somene can tank - but you won't be doing that with the same ship most likely, and hey, it's a team effort now.

The other choice is of course, to place the warp-in button closer to the capture button, allowing people to get point on the farmer faster and upping the risk. Right now you have 60-70km to the button and up to 100km to the guy orbiting it. Even with an officr point on a Lachesis, you aren't getting a farmer (and good luck beating his 2 stabs).

My 2c

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Previous page123Next page