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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Enforcing the law.
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Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#61 - 2011-10-13 14:17:40 UTC
Maybe I overreacted to what was meant as a simple statement that negative reinforcement had a part in it.

But then I still hear 'free' Matari tell me "I hate what I've become because of you." and the only thing they seem to do about it is the want to change the Amarr and telling us over and over again. That doesn't mean I want to mitigate the responsibility of the Amarr for what we've done to the Minmatar. But while we're responsible for what we've done, we're not responsible for how free people deal with it. Free people are responsible for who they are and what they do: They can't blame anyone else for that or make someone else responsible. That's the 'price' of freedom. But then, maybe by free you were merely meaning 'liberated', but not in possession of freedom.

See, I don't try to justify a renewed reclaiming and enslavement of Matari: I try to make you aware that the explanation you give isn't one fitting a free people or at least is a pretty bad explanation for free people. Maybe it's a simple fact that this is what is going on, but as a free people you should - in my opinion - strive to change this. The fact that you're conscious of it means that you've the means to do so. So, move onward.

It's a poor state to remain in: Liberated, but yet not free.
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#62 - 2011-10-13 15:53:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Arkady Sadik
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
That doesn't mean I want to mitigate the responsibility of the Amarr for what we've done to the Minmatar.
I think the debate is overly concentrated (from both sides) on what the Amarr have done - what is done is done, it was horrible and wrong, but no one can change it anymore. Outside of discussions with some Amarrian apologetics, the real problem is what the Amarr are doing.

You are very right: We are free people and we have the choice of what we do. And I do think it is wrong to claim that what we do, we only do because of the Amarr. It is because we choose to do so. We choose to want freedom for the rest of our people.

Quote:
It's a poor state to remain in: Liberated, but yet not free.
"Though free I am bound by the chains of my brothers"
- Inscription from a stone in the Remembering
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#63 - 2011-10-13 22:01:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Outside of discussions with some Amarrian apologetics, the real problem is what the Amarr are doing.
So lopsided...

Arkady Sadik wrote:
You are very right: We are free people and we have the choice of what we do. And I do think it is wrong to claim that what we do, we only do because of the Amarr. It is because we choose to do so. We choose to want freedom for the rest of our people.

It doesn't sound like this if you invoke negative reinforcement. But I'm happy we're in agreement here, after all.

Arkady Sadik wrote:
"Though free I am bound by the chains of my brothers"
- Inscription from a stone in the Remembering

I hope you do see the paradox nature of this statement?
But well, it is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere - especially if they forged them for themselves to replace the ones they shook off. But I sympathize, those revered chains are universal and we all are but fools.
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#64 - 2011-10-14 04:07:54 UTC
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
Arkady Sadik wrote:
Outside of discussions with some Amarrian apologetics, the real problem is what the Amarr are doing.
So lopsided...

Arkady Sadik wrote:
You are very right: We are free people and we have the choice of what we do. And I do think it is wrong to claim that what we do, we only do because of the Amarr. It is because we choose to do so. We choose to want freedom for the rest of our people.

It doesn't sound like this if you invoke negative reinforcement. But I'm happy we're in agreement here, after all.

Arkady Sadik wrote:
"Though free I am bound by the chains of my brothers"
- Inscription from a stone in the Remembering

I hope you do see the paradox nature of this statement?
But well, it is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere - especially if they forged them for themselves to replace the ones they shook off. But I sympathize, those revered chains are universal and we all are but fools.



Lopsided? Not at all. Aside from some Amarrians that insist we're persecuting them for an event seven hundred years in the past (and I, until recently, felt that I wanted to), the issue is what the Amarr are doing today -- namely, keeping an entire race in slavery, and being totally unrepentant for doing so.

The 'negative reinforcement' is provided by the Empire -- we want freedom for our people, you continually refuse to provide that freedom in any meaningful manner (this is the 'negative reinforcement'), therefore we choose to fight to obtain what you will not willingly give us.

Calling Elder Sadik's statement a 'paradox' shows a lack of understanding on your part. It's not paradoxical at all: even though I may be free, I stand in solidarity with my brothers and sisters; The 'chains' I am 'bound' with are the shared responsibility of my people to fight against the evil that has been perpetrated upon us.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....