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[Winter] Support Frigates

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Vakr Onzo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#181 - 2012-08-20 20:25:22 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


We don't have any plans to release tech one ships made by the tech two ship producers.

Khanid faction ships would be cool, maybe someday.
I don't mean something like that. Inquisitor showed the new pilots that Amarr has a small line of ships that used rocket/missile weaponry. This way they can decide if they want to start branching off from the Laser Gunnery training toward Rocketry training after trying out the 'rocket' frigate for themselves.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#182 - 2012-08-20 20:25:50 UTC
Whoot!

Good to see not all the wall-o-texts generated by the FW crowd the past four plus years has gone unnoticed .. logi frigs has been a desired hull since the war began (would have wanted FW to be fixed though, but beggars ... ).

As for the ships:
What is the reasoning for the silly cap use bonus? Frigate bouts rarely last in excess of two minutes and everyone know that if you have ammo in your barrels and juice in your capacitor when you pop then you just didn't want that ship!

My idea, was and is, to have look and feel like combat frigates that were refurbished to fill a need in the armed forces;
- Give each two (or three) weapon slots of racial type.
- Double the amount repped bonus, makes it an even 100% at lvl5 .. Smalls will in effect rep as much as a Medium.
- Replace cap bonus with a racial damage (or RoF) bonus.

Avoids creating a one-trick pony which is I believe contrary to current design philosophy (T2 = focused, T1 = generic, T3 = TBA).
Avoids having logi frigs being only flown by alts/dual-box characters as they will have nothing to do at all.
Shifts the planned rep-over-duration-of-fight towards the front end of the fights (where it matters, see avg. frig fright duration above), with cap becoming an issue if it drags on.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#183 - 2012-08-20 20:30:00 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
So it's looking like FW will become even worse after the winter expansion. Griffins and logistics everywhere, no fun allowed.


I wouldn't worry about Griffins. Worry about Crucifiers. A new Crucifier will be able to take a Scorch Geddon to a 500m optimal.

-Liang


Tracking disruptors have always been really great, we just have to hope people don't figure this out. Also I don't think my tristan will care much about crucifiers.
Zed Jackelope
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#184 - 2012-08-20 20:32:23 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
A merlin with one of these repping it gets nearly a 300 dps tank. That is nearly unbreakable in a 1v1 situation with another frigate, even a gank fitted enyo.

Edit: "oh, so just go kill the logi frigate" - these frigs are faster than assault frigates, gl with catching them while scrammed and webbed.



.... two things, no three

first, eve isn't balanced around 1v1

second, that's not a 1v1 scenario

third, biomass yourself /ingame
Bryant21
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#185 - 2012-08-20 20:33:41 UTC
Will we get T2 variants of these ships? I know the shaders are already in place to do so, this could also allow a potential new skill line to train as well.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#186 - 2012-08-20 20:34:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Zed Jackelope wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
A merlin with one of these repping it gets nearly a 300 dps tank. That is nearly unbreakable in a 1v1 situation with another frigate, even a gank fitted enyo.

Edit: "oh, so just go kill the logi frigate" - these frigs are faster than assault frigates, gl with catching them while scrammed and webbed.



.... two things, no three

first, eve isn't balanced around 1v1

second, that's not a 1v1 scenario

third, biomass yourself /ingame


So your opinion is that 2 poorly skilled tech 1 frigates should be able to easily kill without micromanaging modules, manual piloting or special tactics, a maxed out perfectly flown tech 2 frigate?

Or hell. Do you really want to argue that 3 poorly skilled tech 1 frigates, again, without excellent piloting or special tactics should be able to kill a cruiser specifically designed to kill frigates?
MJ Incognito
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#187 - 2012-08-20 20:40:00 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
MJ Incognito wrote:

******** arguement number 1... check.

You can just look to the alliance tournament as proof of reality versus theory. You only need 3-4 large repairer and gang bonuses to do massive **** tons of reps. First of all, not everyone is a maxed out implanted dps pilot. Secondly, most BS don't go above about 900 dps in optimal close range practically and fights under those conditions rarely if ever happen. Third if you look at most fleet comps in game these days, they all center around resistance based t2/t3 fleets, or resistance bonused t1 fleets (drake, rokh, abaddon), and range above 50km... again, factoring into the reasonable damage calcs for BS pilots.... 900 dps isn't going to happen at that range.


There are not 10-15 battleships duking it out in the alliance tournament. In fact, the fact that ANYTHING died in the alliance tournament is proof positive that your argument is just flat wrong.


No, it isn't.

-Liang[/quote]


Are you so ******** as to say that 1 logistics is able to prevent an entire group of ships from dieing? no, 1 logistic can be killed, which is why my entire arguement surrounds scaling you ******** schmuck. My point about the tournament was how fights where the SOLO logistic wasn't targeted first showed massive tanking of 3 highly speced cr bs fits, or multiple command ships. Any normal fight won't see such ideal conditions for the offensive side as that tournament showed, and yet the logistics were still highly powerful.

The problem is, there's hardly a counter for logistics, and it wrecks combat to know that you can regularly design nearly unbreakable setups in this game. This game was far better off when logistics weren't so ******* retardedly strong.

Nobody in this game finds it fun when the other side is unbreakable... it just leads to fights that take way too long to decide, for hardly any real action.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#188 - 2012-08-20 20:41:43 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:

So your opinion is that 2 poorly skilled tech 1 frigates should be able to easily kill without micromanaging modules, manual piloting or special tactics, a maxed out perfectly flown tech 2 frigate?

Or hell. Do you really want to argue that 3 poorly skilled tech 1 frigates, again, without excellent piloting or special tactics should be able to kill a cruiser specifically designed to kill frigates?


Are you new to eve?

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Blade Ripley
Hydra Squadron
#189 - 2012-08-20 20:45:52 UTC
Hannott Thanos wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:

So your opinion is that 2 poorly skilled tech 1 frigates should be able to easily kill without micromanaging modules, manual piloting or special tactics, a maxed out perfectly flown tech 2 frigate?

Or hell. Do you really want to argue that 3 poorly skilled tech 1 frigates, again, without excellent piloting or special tactics should be able to kill a cruiser specifically designed to kill frigates?


Are you new to eve?


Apparently, the end is near.
Ribikoka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#190 - 2012-08-20 21:28:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ribikoka
BTW who want to fly with frigs against Supercapitals ?
CCP u missed something and live in the stone age ?
Make useable ship, dont make crap ship classes again.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#191 - 2012-08-20 21:28:06 UTC
T2 Variant PL0X.

TY.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Deena Amaj
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#192 - 2012-08-20 21:29:34 UTC
Quote:
The problem is, there's hardly a counter for logistics, and it wrecks combat to know that you can regularly design nearly unbreakable setups in this game. This game was far better off when logistics weren't so ******* retardedly strong.


I agree somewhat. But it is not just the logistics ships as there are several other ships that are far worse. Not to mention ASB on top of all, though that is another topic.

However, I was always under the impression that one could rely on Ewar or even Dampening; to some extent.

confirthisposmed

I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#193 - 2012-08-20 22:05:22 UTC
Can you make the Inquisitor and Navitas faster? The Small Remote Repair Augmentor is going to slow these two down even more. Racial templates is nice and all but you need to take into account the slow down from plates and armor rigs. As it is the shields once can field a nice local tank thanks to ASB's.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#194 - 2012-08-20 22:17:51 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
how does this not make solo pvp exponentially harder?

You think a combat frig isn't going to get the better of a logi frig in a 1 vs 1.

Or do some of you have trouble with really basic math.
2 vs 1 isn't 1 vs 1.


As a manufacturer this a huge buff.
BBQ FTW
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#195 - 2012-08-20 22:23:52 UTC  |  Edited by: BBQ FTW
Michael Harari wrote:
Zed Jackelope wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
A merlin with one of these repping it gets nearly a 300 dps tank. That is nearly unbreakable in a 1v1 situation with another frigate, even a gank fitted enyo.

Edit: "oh, so just go kill the logi frigate" - these frigs are faster than assault frigates, gl with catching them while scrammed and webbed.



.... two things, no three

first, eve isn't balanced around 1v1

second, that's not a 1v1 scenario

third, biomass yourself /ingame


So your opinion is that 2 poorly skilled tech 1 frigates should be able to easily kill without micromanaging modules, manual piloting or special tactics, a maxed out perfectly flown tech 2 frigate?

Or hell. Do you really want to argue that 3 poorly skilled tech 1 frigates, again, without excellent piloting or special tactics should be able to kill a cruiser specifically designed to kill frigates?

Of course, numbers should always solely dictate who wins a fight, after all, that is balanced.

What, do you think that piloting ability should actually matter in any fight? Don't be silly.
Lili Lu
#196 - 2012-08-20 22:37:27 UTC
Tomytronic wrote:
So does this mean you're gonna make armor reps start at the beginning of the cycle? Because 5 seconds is a long time to wait for a rep to land in a frigate.


Got to page 4 and saw no response to this Fozzie. While conceptually I like a tech I logi frigate and an improved tech I logi cruiser, you really need to rethink some of the current mechanics in the game. Having the remote armor reps take 5 seconds after lock forces more and bigger plates on armor frigs. This in turn reduces their mobility even more. Just another scenario of reinforcing the supremacy of shield kiting ships in the game (here at the frigate level).Ugh
Praetor Abre-Kai
Pickling Rifles
#197 - 2012-08-20 22:38:56 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
A merlin with one of these repping it gets nearly a 300 dps tank. That is nearly unbreakable in a 1v1 situation with another frigate, even a gank fitted enyo.

Edit: "oh, so just go kill the logi frigate" - these frigs are faster than assault frigates, gl with catching them while scrammed and webbed.


Well that wouldn't be a 1v1 situation now would it? People will find a way to break it this gives players a way to get their feet wet when it comes to being a logi bro with out a ridiculously long train.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#198 - 2012-08-20 22:50:34 UTC
Lili Lu wrote:
Tomytronic wrote:
So does this mean you're gonna make armor reps start at the beginning of the cycle? Because 5 seconds is a long time to wait for a rep to land in a frigate.


Got to page 4 and saw no response to this Fozzie. While conceptually I like a tech I logi frigate and an improved tech I logi cruiser, you really need to rethink some of the current mechanics in the game. Having the remote armor reps take 5 seconds after lock forces more and bigger plates on armor frigs. This in turn reduces their mobility even more. Just another scenario of reinforcing the supremacy of shield kiting ships in the game (here at the frigate level).Ugh


Not going to rule out decreasing the cycle time of remote armor reps, but I also don't want to commit to anything at this point. They are already faster than small armor reps, but it's possible we may decide to tweak them a bit as part of this balance pass.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Jiska Ensa
Estrale Frontiers
#199 - 2012-08-20 22:56:27 UTC
Call me nostalgic but I would have loved to see the Navitas made into the drone boat. It just looks so awesome, especially alongside the Vexor, Myrmidon and Dominix. The Tristan never looked very Gallente to me. I don't suppose you're willing to swap the models around, but maintain the same stats? You did it once with the Helios :)
mkint
#200 - 2012-08-20 23:03:57 UTC
Jiska Ensa wrote:
Call me nostalgic but I would have loved to see the Navitas made into the drone boat. It just looks so awesome, especially alongside the Vexor, Myrmidon and Dominix. The Tristan never looked very Gallente to me. I don't suppose you're willing to swap the models around, but maintain the same stats? You did it once with the Helios :)

Agreed. Navitas has the bulging forehead of the vex and domi. Tristan has the flat face of the exquror.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.