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[Winter] Support Frigates

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MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#141 - 2012-08-20 18:10:51 UTC
Eli Grange wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I'm not going to rule out creating t2 versions of these someday, but the t1 versions are all that's coming for winter and t2 versions would be a somewhat more difficult balancing problem if we ever do them.


I'm going to make yet another suggestion for this thread

T2 logi = larger rep class (+smaller sig, better resists etc)

T1 logi frigates = small reps
T2 logi frigates = medium reps

T1 logi cruiser = medium reps
T2 logi cruiser = large reps


tbh i want to see the large reps taken away from tech II logi sihps...

it gives them WAY! too much scaleability for a ship that size...

i would much rather see a new BS added to the game... that used large RR... that would make sense as they have very large sig radius to start with... so with thier ability to rep would come with thier ability to die!Pirate

I would even like to see a tech II version logi BS thats used with the target breaker mod... its tech II bonus would reduce the side effects when the mod is active... (this would help counter the blob for smaller gangs)

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#142 - 2012-08-20 18:12:51 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
A merlin with one of these repping it gets nearly a 300 dps tank. That is nearly unbreakable in a 1v1 situation with another frigate, even a gank fitted enyo.

Edit: "oh, so just go kill the logi frigate" - these frigs are faster than assault frigates, gl with catching them while scrammed and webbed.


But if there's a logi frigate it's no longer a 1v1, it's a 1v2. Add a second ship on the other side and the picture changes a lot (or swap the logi frigate for another Merlin and the picture stays pretty similar).

You do realize there's a huge difference between that extra ship being a force multiplier (like logistic ship or recon) and yet another generic combat vessel, right Question

You (CCP) thinking it's impossible to fight 1 vs 10+ doesn't mean it's indeed impossible. What makes it impossible are one-sided game 'features' like current ECM, damping, OP RRing etc. which allow those in superior numbers to render opposing ship(s) completely (!) useless.



indeed at some point there needs to be diminishing returns for attacking and rr...

that way you would have to be smarter about target selection and would make a fight more like a RL battle with its chaoticness... and added epicness...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2012-08-20 18:13:47 UTC
I would have preferred an Electronic Support frigate that gave remote ECCM and Remote SeBo's etc and a destroyer sized logistics hull.

Guess the future is small and fast ships in large swarms
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#144 - 2012-08-20 18:13:48 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
how does this not make solo pvp exponentially harder?


I solo PVP frequently and I'm not afraid of this change. In fact, I'd say you're overlooking the change that is ACTUALLY going to make solo PVP hard.

-Liang


you mean the ewar frigs?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#145 - 2012-08-20 18:14:48 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:

tbh i want to see the large reps taken away from tech II logi sihps...

it gives them WAY! too much scaleability for a ship that size...

i would much rather see a new BS added to the game... that used large RR... that would make sense as they have very large sig radius to start with... so with thier ability to rep would come with thier ability to die!Pirate

I would even like to see a tech II version logi BS thats used with the target breaker mod... its tech II bonus would reduce the side effects when the mod is active... (this would help counter the blob for smaller gangs)


So you'd need 2-3 Logis repping one guy to sustain him under a single medium DPS BC? I guess removing effective logistics from the game is one way to go about it.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#146 - 2012-08-20 18:15:21 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
how does this not make solo pvp exponentially harder?


I solo PVP frequently and I'm not afraid of this change. In fact, I'd say you're overlooking the change that is ACTUALLY going to make solo PVP hard.

-Liang


you mean the ewar frigs?


The Crucifier, in particular, is going to **** everyone.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#147 - 2012-08-20 18:17:18 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
I would have preferred an Electronic Support frigate that gave remote ECCM and Remote SeBo's etc

Guess the future is small and fast ships in large swarms


tbh put the remote eccm and remote sebos on a tech II logi frig!

that with tech II resists would make these things key for thier larger brothers! i.e free up some slots for other types of mods...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#148 - 2012-08-20 18:19:56 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:

tbh i want to see the large reps taken away from tech II logi sihps...

it gives them WAY! too much scaleability for a ship that size...

i would much rather see a new BS added to the game... that used large RR... that would make sense as they have very large sig radius to start with... so with thier ability to rep would come with thier ability to die!Pirate

I would even like to see a tech II version logi BS thats used with the target breaker mod... its tech II bonus would reduce the side effects when the mod is active... (this would help counter the blob for smaller gangs)


So you'd need 2-3 Logis repping one guy to sustain him under a single medium DPS BC? I guess removing effective logistics from the game is one way to go about it.

-Liang



you know i would not mind the meidum remote reps getting an increase in rep amount per lev to help out logi curisers II... but IMO the range of Large reps is whats making them OP...

but having large reps on a bs sized ship would be OK for me because of the many disadvantages of bs sized ships... large sig radius... slow... bad agility... terribad locking time... and so on...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Malice Duivels
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#149 - 2012-08-20 18:25:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Malice Duivels
Arguing about balancing is pretty moot. Everything has a counter.. whether it's widely used or practical is the only real discussion to have. The ship rebalancing being about 12% complete renders the whole "practical or widely used" portion of my previous statement grounds to just stfu and wait.

Complaining about another challenge to solo warfare is silly. Solo is fun because it IS a challenge.

In the upcoming changes.. t1 logi cruisers would be sweet. Hope it's given consideration.

The only tragedy I see is yet again another homogenization of the races.
i.e. the difference in flying Minnie vs. Caldari equates to a few very minor differences. I understand it makes it easier to balance.. but that doesn't make it better.
On that same note.. Nidhogguring the minmatar logistics would be unfortunate.

Perhaps a sharper mind than mine has a better solution on how to provide a considerably more pronounced difference in the race's ships.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#150 - 2012-08-20 18:26:01 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
That's exactly what I'm saying: everyone needs more hot-drop support and giving new players or even bitter vets a cheapish, low skillpoint way to play a role that is sorely needed is a positive overall.


I can't wait to hot drop fools in my Burst, good thing they included those jump dri--- OH WAIT

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#151 - 2012-08-20 18:27:49 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:

you know i would not mind the meidum remote reps getting an increase in rep amount per lev to help out logi curisers II... but IMO the range of Large reps is whats making them OP...

but having large reps on a bs sized ship would be OK for me because of the many disadvantages of bs sized ships... large sig radius... slow... bad agility... terribad locking time... and so on...


Your idea would ultimately just remove long range logistics from the game. The fallout would be that kiting in a logistics ship would become impossible and so would long range RR. Furthermore, battleship sized logis would never be used for a tremendous number of reasons. So really, the game would just be worse off for no good reason.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#152 - 2012-08-20 18:32:54 UTC
Malice Duivels wrote:

On that same note.. Nidhogguring the minmatar logistics would be unfortunate.


You know what irritates the **** out of me? Pretty much everyone I've talked to would rather have an Archon with Carrier 3, RR4, and T1 triage than a Nidhoggur with Carrier 5, RR5, T2 Triage, Compensations 5, etc (totally max skilled). It needs to have a local rep bonus to go along with that sweet sweet RR bonus or it's just so ******* useless as a triage carrier.

And triage is the one place I feel like I'd reasonably expect the capitals of the small gang focused race to be good at.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
C DeLeon
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#153 - 2012-08-20 18:36:20 UTC  |  Edited by: C DeLeon
CCP Fozzie: What do you think about blackops logistics destroyers ? Pirate
Sard Caid
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#154 - 2012-08-20 18:42:08 UTC
Sounds solid.
Makalu Zarya
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
#155 - 2012-08-20 18:49:21 UTC
t1 logistics frigates are useless...can we please not get a slap in the face...if you gonna make logi frigates they at least need to be t2...t1 is just worthless crap
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#156 - 2012-08-20 18:55:57 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
Liang Nuren wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:

you know i would not mind the meidum remote reps getting an increase in rep amount per lev to help out logi curisers II... but IMO the range of Large reps is whats making them OP...

but having large reps on a bs sized ship would be OK for me because of the many disadvantages of bs sized ships... large sig radius... slow... bad agility... terribad locking time... and so on...


Your idea would ultimately just remove long range logistics from the game. The fallout would be that kiting in a logistics ship would become impossible and so would long range RR. Furthermore, battleship sized logis would never be used for a tremendous number of reasons. So really, the game would just be worse off for no good reason.

-Liang



edit correction for misreading...

as for the medium vrs large... well 20 km is not so bad... 52 km range is more then enough to kite with... and hey they could always add a rig that could increase the range of RR right?

the only thing i would do i get rid of the drone rep bonus and replace with a rr efficiency bonus... lets say 7.5% per lev... that would take that 192 per medium rep and turn it into 264 to which i would be happy with...

so in practice you are loosing 100 rep per cycle and 20 km... which imo would bring them in line with the fact they are CRUISERS!

also back in the day putting rr on a bs was standard before they boosted the hell out of logi ships... so its not unheard of... plus IMO the bs sized ones would have 7ish high slots so there potential rep amount would make them worth using...

so you would have frig logi for fast moving small frig gangs...

you would have cruiser logi for fast moving medium sized gangs that are full of cruisiers and bc's...

and then for large fleets you would have the bs logi...

hell it would even scale up to carriers...

so as a logi pilot you would have 4 options of what kind of logi ship you would jump into depending on the type of fight you are looking at...

plus this would make it so medium sized rr would be used... just like they just did for small RR...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Cahvus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#157 - 2012-08-20 18:56:37 UTC
Makalu Zarya wrote:
t1 logistics frigates are useless...can we please not get a slap in the face...if you gonna make logi frigates they at least need to be t2...t1 is just worthless crap



Oh makalu xD

Maybe if you had some better logi you wouldn't die so much :p

But all innocent joking aside, why not? They are cheap enough for noobs and let newbros do useful things for fleets. Plus frigate fleets are always fun and now, they get effective logi too!
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#158 - 2012-08-20 18:58:36 UTC
Sard Caid wrote:
Sounds solid.


Seriously Sard?

This change fucks you more than anyone. How well can your raven kill a frigate, let alone 2 frigates with staggered small reps on each other?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#159 - 2012-08-20 19:00:58 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:

well no 1 ccp already said they want cruisers to be faster and more agile... so they will end up being nano any ways...

as for the medium vrs large... well 20 km is not so bad... 52 km range is more then enough to kite with... and hey they could always add a rig that could increase the range of RR right?

the only thing i would do i get rid of the drone rep bonus and replace with a rr efficiency bonus... lets say 7.5% per lev... that would take that 192 per medium rep and turn it into 264 to which i would be happy with...

so in practice you are loosing 100 rep per cycle and 20 km... which imo would bring them in line with the fact they are CRUISERS!

also back in the day putting rr on a bs was standard before they boosted the hell out of logi ships... so its not unheard off... plus IMO the bs sized ones would have 7ish high slots so there potential rep amount would make them worth using...


So, the thing about it is that 20km of RR range is a really big deal, especially given the fact that they're cruisers. The simple fact of the matter is that fights involving kiting can be really spread out (100s of km) and a Logi is expected to be everywhere... all the time. Furthermore, logistics don't need a RR amount nerf - as it stands a 3 RR Scimitar is not going to keep up a BC against another BC.

And ultimately, the problem you're concerned about (RR BS disappearance) has absolutely nothing to do with logistics ships. They weren't even boosted around that time. What you're seeing is the effect of BOMBS and SUPERCARRIERS. Bringing RR BS is asking to lose your entire fleet to 4 bombers.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#160 - 2012-08-20 19:06:50 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
so you are saying a rig to increase range of RR would be fine? cool...

pretty sure logis were boosted before we saw the death of moms...

and who is complaining about bombing fleets... they are the best anti blob tool we have... tbh...

and hell man i would like to see more use of internal reps to make up for the short commings up rr... so having an asb on that nano ship would help it survive untill it gets in range of those scimis...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.