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[Winter] Support Frigates

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Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#101 - 2012-08-20 15:32:34 UTC
I'm curious to see how these will impact minor plexes from a power creep standpoint. Combined with Griffins getting another midslot, the defender who is able to setup first will have an even larger advantage. I'm not totally against the defender having an advantage, but I think that overwhelming numbers(versus semi-overwhelming numbers) shouldn't the ONLY solution to overcoming this advantage.

I think a good counter could be lowering the sensor strength so that unbonused racial ECM has at least a 50% chance to jam them out, considering many of the hard counters to these frigates aren't available in small plexes.

The moar you cry the less you pee
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#102 - 2012-08-20 15:38:20 UTC
MisterNick wrote:
Letrange wrote:
You guys realize that the Thrasher just went and became THE t1 destroyer with the introduction of these ships?


You mean it wasn't already?


Midrange dessie gangs just got an obscene boost with these frigates.

The moar you cry the less you pee
Shalassason
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#103 - 2012-08-20 15:59:47 UTC
Should make for an interesting change, but they really seem too similar.

Can't we have boni to cap transfers on the Amarr/Caldari versions ? As a stepping stone towards the cap chains of Guardians/Basilisks ?
Ronga Dosloe
Blue Canary
Watch This
#104 - 2012-08-20 16:05:54 UTC
I'd like to see the effect this has on the T1 Logistics cruiser when they get around to them, if it follows the progression i'm expecting a rack of 4 Medium RRs. That would be enough repping power to warrant their use, and the requirments for them are hardly high for them either.
Rick Rymes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#105 - 2012-08-20 16:08:53 UTC
RvB might actually use logistics now :) i hope they remove the tracking link boost in the Scythe soon.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#106 - 2012-08-20 16:09:46 UTC
This is awesome.

CCP, you rock.

Big smile

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Hustomte
Veritex Industrial Inc.
#107 - 2012-08-20 16:20:50 UTC
I finally feel vindicated after getting steam-rolled last December:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=483268

I also have 175 Navitas in the cooker right now, time to go out and make a pile of Inquisitor next. Big smile

Question for CCP Fozzie though: Bear
There is no cap-transfer range bonus for frigs, is this intentional? To give the Augoror something to do in small fleets? I was secretly hoping for cap-transferring, if anything for the sole purpose of teaching cap-chaining to new players so they don't die in a fire when they get to the cruiser level t2's (Guardian/Basilisk).

Though I guess this can be mitigated by using an anchor person and orbiting real tight and being content with the 4km range of the small cap transfer arrays.

Cap is so important in this game, with neuts: (drones, mods, and bombs) yet people who feel its important in a battle getting ROFLSTOMPED for showing up in an Augoror or something. Yet become the pride and joy for cap-intensive activities such as POS/SBU/IHUB bashes. Someday I hope we can get cap-transfer drones. Anywho, just wondering what your thoughts are.

All the best!

...Signature...
Ugleb
Jotunn Risi
#108 - 2012-08-20 16:22:43 UTC
Javajunky wrote:
Looks good on paper but if I remember correctly, most of the time in Frig Roams most frigs insta-pop even in small pvp engagements. New Logi pilots --- needed to learn how to be frustrated? I dont ever remember frig fights where I had enough time to even broadcast for reps never mind lock someone else and provide them. Exercise in futility, 0 for 2 with CCP F.uck it up. First making mining worthless again and now this? Maybe you want to to try your luck at drawing pretty laserz in the graphics department, management might feel like they are getting something for that paycheck.


These will also be useful for repping other hulls than just other frigates. Currently in FW T2 logi cruisers can't get inside the most fought-over plexes, where these will be able to, and could be used to rep everything up to a T1 cruiser. Also these could be handy in a post-fight scenario repping the damage taken by frigates that did make it out of the fight.

As a lot of the time frigates that do survive a fight come away with structure damage, it might be worth considering giving logi frigs the ability to realistically consider fitting remote structure reps. Might be hard to balance the extra slot/fitting you'd need even with a large fitting bonus though.

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Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#109 - 2012-08-20 16:29:47 UTC
Shalassason wrote:
Should make for an interesting change, but they really seem too similar.

Can't we have boni to cap transfers on the Amarr/Caldari versions ? As a stepping stone towards the cap chains of Guardians/Basilisks ?


Seriously? That would make the Inquisitor and Bantam useless.
jsman99
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#110 - 2012-08-20 16:30:09 UTC
I hardly use any of my frigates anymore even though I have the most fun flying them. This is great for bitter-vets and newbies alike for fast, easy, cheap pvp funtimez. +1 looking forward to this.
McDarila
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2012-08-20 16:32:44 UTC
Few of us in the alliance gamed it out. It is possable to put a med repper on the ship making it usable to rep large pos. I dont see a use for it out side of repping a pos while the main fleet fighting else where. It has no tank to speak of and there for unuseable even on our assult frig fleets. The ship is nothing but a kill mail waiting to happen in the logi role.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#112 - 2012-08-20 16:33:36 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Shalassason wrote:
Should make for an interesting change, but they really seem too similar.

Can't we have boni to cap transfers on the Amarr/Caldari versions ? As a stepping stone towards the cap chains of Guardians/Basilisks ?


Seriously? That would make the Inquisitor and Bantam useless.


I think he means in addition to. The problem I see here is again, wanting to be cautious with these new toys and not make them too overpowered. many have pointed out the need for neuts, ECM, etc in countering these, I'd hate to see more stable frig cap chains without a proper counter in more neuting ships. Who knows, we still have the E-war tech 1 frigates to go here....

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Eli Grange
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#113 - 2012-08-20 16:37:33 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I'm not going to rule out creating t2 versions of these someday, but the t1 versions are all that's coming for winter and t2 versions would be a somewhat more difficult balancing problem if we ever do them.


I'm going to make yet another suggestion for this thread

T2 logi = larger rep class (+smaller sig, better resists etc)

T1 logi frigates = small reps
T2 logi frigates = medium reps

T1 logi cruiser = medium reps
T2 logi cruiser = large reps
AndromacheDarkstar
Integrated Insterstellar Holdings
#114 - 2012-08-20 16:38:02 UTC
Best idea i hadnt even considered possible ever. This should make frigate roams a more common sight which makes pvp a little cheaper and a little easier to get into.

Combined with possible destroyer changes and lots of fun is on the horizon.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#115 - 2012-08-20 16:38:06 UTC
McDarila wrote:
Few of us in the alliance gamed it out. It is possable to put a med repper on the ship making it usable to rep large pos. I dont see a use for it out side of repping a pos while the main fleet fighting else where. It has no tank to speak of and there for unuseable even on our assult frig fleets. The ship is nothing but a kill mail waiting to happen in the logi role.


Those of us in FW will find a way to hotwire a kitchen sink and stay alive in it. Give us bailing wire, bubblegum, and some batteries and we'll find a way to blow each other up with it. I *GUARANTEE* you there will be groups that have some fun frig-gang to frig-gang lulz with these, even if they dont become a standard fleet doctrine.

And thats just it right? We dont WANT these to become essential from now on. But viable? Sure, these will see some use in RvB and FW situations, and some small gang roams here and there, and nothing wrong with that. Should mix things up.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Jake Rivers
New Planetary Order
#116 - 2012-08-20 16:38:30 UTC
The new frigate fleets are going to be a ton of fun, nicely done CCP.

Senex Legio
Alara IonStorm
#117 - 2012-08-20 16:48:50 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:

1) With the cost of small reps, I dont think its reasonable to expect a t2 fit - deadspace reps will be the norm.

What is the cost of small faction reps?

Now I am sure you are going to give me a small number and say look how cheap that is but no one right now is using them. The Mackinaw increased massively in price while the Hulk decreased after the changes. As soon as these reps become useful there price will sky rocket.

They are not much more common then small complex reps and they cost 10-20mil for even cheap ones. Give an item a use and the price rises.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#118 - 2012-08-20 16:55:04 UTC
Uranium 242 wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
When will you introduce equally powerful cheap-ass mini-Titans with jump-portaling ability? This will be perfectly in line with CCP general idea of making everything available to everyone.


**** off with this elitist bullshit. Everyone needs more logistics support and giving new players or even bitter vets a cheapish, low skillpoint way to play a role that is sorely needed is a positive overall.


That's exactly what I'm saying: everyone needs more hot-drop support and giving new players or even bitter vets a cheapish, low skillpoint way to play a role that is sorely needed is a positive overall.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Artimis kraw
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#119 - 2012-08-20 16:55:28 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Basically having super low sig, low skill requirement, super cheap logi is very bad for the game.

They scale without stacking penalty and work well even with poor skills. The benefit they give is out of proportion to both their in game cost and the player skill required to use them. Fighting them requires disproportionate effort, particularly if they are massed (which they will be).

I support your other changes fozzie, but this is a bad, bad idea.

An SFI, a cruiser designed from the ground up to be death to frigates would be unable to fight 2 probes and a merlin. A vagabond or cynabal, also designed as frigate killers would be similarly useless. A dual web autocannon hurricane would at best be able to escape from them with its neuts, and would be unable to break the tanks.

This gives a LARGE advantage for having SMALL advantage in numbers, and the nature of the advantage is one you cannot counter with piloting skill, but only with your own blob with ecm or high alpha anti frigate ships.


m8 +1 to everything Michael has said in this thread. This will be the death of solo frig pvp. This will be as bad as a falcon uncloaking when 2 BC's engage but in smaller, cheaper, less skill intensive form.

gg...
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#120 - 2012-08-20 16:58:14 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Frigate skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Remote Armor Repair amount
10% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use
Role Bonus:
500% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers


This seems pretty reasonable and I like it a lot.

Quote:

Inquisitor:
Frigate skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Remote Armor Repair amount
10% reduction in Remote Armor Repair cap use
Role Bonus:
500% bonus to the range of Remote Armor Repairers
Slot layout: 3 H, 2 M, 4 L, 2 turrets
Fittings: 51 PWG, 135 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 225 / 500 / 330
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 400 / 200s / 2
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 / 3.6 / 1470000 / 4.95s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 5 / 5
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 36km / 700 / 7
Sensor strength: 10 Radar
Signature radius: 34
Cargo capacity: 250


A few comments about the ships:
- The fittings seem a bit low. I am concerned about being able to fit Prop mod, buffer, and a sufficient amount of remote repair.
- I know you wanted them to be slow, but a 5 second align time? Jeeeeeeezee.
- The mass seems pretty heavy. Frig fights are pretty fast moving affairs and I'm not sure that logi frigs would be able to keep up.

What do you say to two classes of logi frigs:
- Amarr/Caldari: Heavy logi frigs (akin to AFs) expected to be in brawls
- Minmatar/Gallente: Light logi frigs (akin to Inties) expected to be in kite gangs

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.