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Margin Trading scams
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Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-07-29 22:17:49 UTC
WT Hommie wrote:

It would be better if I knew that this was a margin order (maybe list it in yellow) then I would have knowledge that the buy order did not have full escrow and know that I am taking a risk, in the current scenario I have no idea there is risk involved until after I have been taken advantage of.

I'd say red would be a more appropriate color.

I do agree the function should be looked at more carefully. I see the advantage to a marketeer in having the reduced escrow function, I don't think an order should remain on the market if it cannot be fulfilled though.

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
#22 - 2012-07-29 22:43:31 UTC
Moonlit Raid wrote:
WT Hommie wrote:

It would be better if I knew that this was a margin order (maybe list it in yellow) then I would have knowledge that the buy order did not have full escrow and know that I am taking a risk, in the current scenario I have no idea there is risk involved until after I have been taken advantage of.

I'd say red would be a more appropriate color.

I do agree the function should be looked at more carefully. I see the advantage to a marketeer in having the reduced escrow function, I don't think an order should remain on the market if it cannot be fulfilled though.


If an order can't be fulfilled, it will automatically drop when someone tries to fill it, and the buyer will have wasted his/her money putting the order up in the first place.
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
#23 - 2012-07-29 22:48:10 UTC
WT Hommie wrote:
This is certainly an abuse of the system as I have no way of knowing that the "buyer" will not fulfill the buy order until the purchase and sale are made. No amount of research or investigation would give me any information or reason to believe the order would not be fulfilled.

It would be better if I knew that this was a margin order (maybe list it in yellow) then I would have knowledge that the buy order did not have full escrow and know that I am taking a risk, in the current scenario I have no idea there is risk involved until after I have been taken advantage of.

Basically I got ripped off on not only the ISK (800,000,000.00), but the weeks of play time spent earning that ISK. This is really upsetting and I hope that you will reconsider the "valid use of game mechanics" and make changes so hard working players don't get ripped off.

I feel ccp is supporting the con artist and don't understand why they cannot fix this simple flaw in their game mechanics.


How could it possibly matter to you whether a buy order is possible to fill or not? For all it ultimately matters, that order might have been filled by somebody else mere milliseconds before you tried to fill it. You are not entitled to fill a specific buy order, and could just as easily have lost your money whether the buy order was backed by Margin Trading or not. Oh, and by the way, tons of traders have the Margin Trading skill. It's always on. So even if such orders were marked for your pointless convenience, it wouldn't tell you much of anything in the first place.
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-07-29 23:48:21 UTC
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
WT Hommie wrote:
This is certainly an abuse of the system as I have no way of knowing that the "buyer" will not fulfill the buy order until the purchase and sale are made. No amount of research or investigation would give me any information or reason to believe the order would not be fulfilled.

It would be better if I knew that this was a margin order (maybe list it in yellow) then I would have knowledge that the buy order did not have full escrow and know that I am taking a risk, in the current scenario I have no idea there is risk involved until after I have been taken advantage of.

Basically I got ripped off on not only the ISK (800,000,000.00), but the weeks of play time spent earning that ISK. This is really upsetting and I hope that you will reconsider the "valid use of game mechanics" and make changes so hard working players don't get ripped off.

I feel ccp is supporting the con artist and don't understand why they cannot fix this simple flaw in their game mechanics.


How could it possibly matter to you whether a buy order is possible to fill or not? For all it ultimately matters, that order might have been filled by somebody else mere milliseconds before you tried to fill it. You are not entitled to fill a specific buy order, and could just as easily have lost your money whether the buy order was backed by Margin Trading or not. Oh, and by the way, tons of traders have the Margin Trading skill. It's always on. So even if such orders were marked for your pointless convenience, it wouldn't tell you much of anything in the first place.

If it marks the escrow as not being 100% you'd know not to try and fulfil it.

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.
I Was There
Habemus
#25 - 2012-07-29 23:54:02 UTC
If someone puts up a contract for less than a buyorder, it's usually a scam.

99.9% of 'too good to be true'-deals are a scam.
WT Hommie
Darwin Analytics
#26 - 2012-07-30 00:41:14 UTC  |  Edited by: WT Hommie
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
[quote=WT Hommie]This is certainly an abuse of the system as I have no way of knowing that the "buyer" will not fulfill the buy order until the purchase and sale are made. No amount of research or investigation would give me any information or reason to believe the order would not be fulfilled.

How could it possibly matter to you whether a buy order is possible to fill or not? For all it ultimately matters, that order might have been filled by somebody else mere milliseconds before you tried to fill it. You are not entitled to fill a specific buy order, and could just as easily have lost your money whether the buy order was backed by Margin Trading or not. Oh, and by the way, tons of traders have the Margin Trading skill. It's always on. So even if such orders were marked for your pointless convenience, it wouldn't tell you much of anything in the first place.



Your point that another player may fill the order is dependent on the item,. There are plenty of expensive and rare items that it is very unlikely they will just happen to be filled milli seconds before you attempt to fill it. However I grant you that is always a trade risk. I feel that when filling a buy order the only risk should be that someone beats you to it, I do not feel that the order is a phony should be part of the risk of trading. It smacks of dishonesty.


Your point about the many traders with the skill and usefulness of colors is valid. I see how color coding would not be useful, however I am not a game program or designer, the folks here are Eve have created an amazing game and are the best at what they do. I am sure it would not be difficult for them to figure out or find a solution to this issue.

Who would it hurt to address this problem? Who would be upset about a change that prevented a player from being taken advantage of (regardless of if it is a "scam" or a "valid" manipulation of the existing game mechanics)?
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
#27 - 2012-07-30 06:12:12 UTC
Moonlit Raid wrote:
If it marks the escrow as not being 100% you'd know not to try and fulfil it.


If it marks the escrow as not being 100%, then about a billion perfectly legit orders would be marked because tons of traders have the Margin Trading skill, and therefore that information would mean basically nothing to you. Again, it wouldn't tell you anything.

WT Hommie wrote:
Your point that another player may fill the order is dependent on the item,. There are plenty of expensive and rare items that it is very unlikely they will just happen to be filled milli seconds before you attempt to fill it. However I grant you that is always a trade risk. I feel that when filling a buy order the only risk should be that someone beats you to it, I do not feel that the order is a phony should be part of the risk of trading. It smacks of dishonesty.


What I'm saying is that, no matter what causes the order to drop, for all you know it was somebody filling it milliseconds before you did. In other words, I'm not so sure why it matters to you that the order was rigged to drop. You don't even really know that anyway, and even if you do, it's not really where the "scam" happened. It's just the part that people like you choose to focus on, because it's where the rug got pulled out from under you. The real "scam" is psychological. It's about tempting you to buy those massively overpriced goods. By the way, this scam doesn't work if you have any idea of the real value of the product in question. And you can't say that this information isn't available, because there are entire player-made websites set up that make it very easy to get a realistic idea of the value of any market-sellable item in the game. So, solution? Bookmark EVE-Central. There you go. I just made it impossible for you to get scammed again in this fashion.

Quote:
Your point about the many traders with the skill and usefulness of colors is valid. I see how color coding would not be useful, however I am not a game program or designer, the folks here are Eve have created an amazing game and are the best at what they do. I am sure it would not be difficult for them to figure out or find a solution to this issue.

Who would it hurt to address this problem? Who would be upset about a change that prevented a player from being taken advantage of (regardless of if it is a "scam" or a "valid" manipulation of the existing game mechanics)?


The solution for this issue is for you to know the value of items before you buy them. Another helpful solution is to develop a healthy skepticism about deals that seem too good to be true. If it seems like everything is too perfectly set out, take a look at the quantity on the buy order. If it's more than 1 and has no good reason to be, then you're probably looking at a scam. There you go, problem solved.
Dominik Miethling
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2012-08-08 11:09:52 UTC
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
If an order can't be fulfilled, it will automatically drop when someone tries to fill it, and the buyer will have wasted his/her money putting the order up in the first place.

Where are my items going then? Back to my hangar telling me "We're sorry, but the trader has no money"? Can I still see the char i tried to sell it to in the market history?
Moonlit Raid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-08-08 13:41:03 UTC
Wouldn't matter if you could. They'll be a hangar pilot anyway.

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.
Dominik Miethling
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2012-08-08 15:37:17 UTC
I know, it doesn't matter. On the other stuff, I just tried it and you get the stuff back into your hangar and a message: Info Broker found no match for your order. Others might have been before you, or your quotes might be outdated.
Srioghal moDhream
Perkone
Caldari State
#31 - 2012-08-20 13:13:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Srioghal moDhream
Dominik Miethling wrote:
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
If an order can't be fulfilled, it will automatically drop when someone tries to fill it, and the buyer will have wasted his/her money putting the order up in the first place.

Where are my items going then? Back to my hangar telling me "We're sorry, but the trader has no money"? Can I still see the char i tried to sell it to in the market history?


Just check and see who sold you all the overpriced stuff you were trying to sell to make huge money for no risk. That guy is usually involved.
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#32 - 2012-08-20 14:37:09 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Has any one ever used the Margin Trading skill for anything except scamming?


Yes, if you want to put out massive numbers of buy orders for all kinds of meta stuff (for mass reprocessing), and don't expect these orders to be filled in a number of hours, then only having to put 25% in escrow helps a lot (since after a while, you'll collect and reprocess the bought items, sell the minerals and have ISK for the remaining sell orders).
Kirin Intarca
Lezaruss Industrial Systems
#33 - 2012-08-22 20:39:42 UTC
WT Hommie wrote:
Who would it hurt to address this problem? Who would be upset about a change that prevented a player from being taken advantage of (regardless of if it is a "scam" or a "valid" manipulation of the existing game mechanics)?


While I do not support dishonest trading, it is a reality of life, in game, and out. My friend bought a "rolex" and it turned out to be fake. However, Intelligent research about actual market values and not falling for the quick isk trading schemes will reduce your chances of getting stuck with good that sell slowly or for less than you paid for it.

As far as who would be hurt to fix this mechanic? About 90% of the traders in the game. I happen to not be one of them. My buy and sell orders are fully escrowed as I do not have the margin trading skill. On the other hand, I can only set up 17 orders. A trader (someone who makes their isk by sitting in jita buying low and selling high) would make excellent use of that skill in ligitimate trade.

But as scammers are very abundant, and just like real life, the police do activly hunt con artists. CCP could try to combat it. Though I doubt ANY MMO has the manpower to do an effective job at that. Additionally, gaming is not RL. If you get scammed in a game, all well. Its a game. Furthermore, one reason people even play games is escapism, and being able to do things in a game you may not be able or allowed to do in real life. For example, flying a spaceship, murdering innocent miners, or controlling millions of isk/currency.

I agree, you should enjoy your games. IF you don't enjoy a game then it is not worth playing. I fully support that EvE is not for everyone, which is one reason I enjoy it so much. Ever since I left WoW, I have not had to deal with a single whiney 12 year old child screaming into my headset though Ventrilo. I traded the 12 year old child, for the scams, murderers [gankers], and a-holes. This game take a lot of brain power, even for simple missions. Fiting a ship is complex, day trading is risky, and Null Sec is dangerous. Play it and like it... or maybe EvE is just not your type of game. <--- that was meant as a nice pice of advice, not a griefer commet. Really, if you don't enjoy the game, then if I were you, I would find another game.
ColdFyre 556
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2012-09-04 04:50:07 UTC
hey guys i got this email from a nigerian guy who wants to transfer his family wealth to me, but there's not a big sign on the top that says if it's legit or not.

despite the fact that it obviously makes zero sense that it would be legit, the very fantastical thought of making tons of money for zero work is strong enough that i'll send my bank account information anyway. and if they steal my money, it's not my fault, cause there isn't a warning from my e-mail provider that it's a scam.
Hazen Koraka
HK Enterprises
#35 - 2012-09-04 07:11:20 UTC
Aside from being completely off topic... wth are you on about? Mods - Please remove last post, completely off topic...

Exploration is Random. Random is Random... or is it?! http://docs.python.org/2/library/random.html
Sun Win
#36 - 2012-09-04 15:52:05 UTC
Hazen Koraka wrote:
Aside from being completely off topic... wth are you on about? Mods - Please remove last post, completely off topic...


The fact that you don't understand how the previous post was completely on topic is worrisome.

On the other hand, you did see something that looked like a scam, though you couldn't figure out why, and your first instinct was to ask around instead of buying the thing, so there's hope for you yet.
Doddy
Excidium.
#37 - 2012-09-04 16:22:11 UTC
WT Hommie wrote:
This is certainly an abuse of the system as I have no way of knowing that the "buyer" will not fulfill the buy order until the purchase and sale are made. No amount of research or investigation would give me any information or reason to believe the order would not be fulfilled.
.


Maybe because of the anomolous price?
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#38 - 2012-09-05 19:02:02 UTC
Moonlit Raid wrote:
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
WT Hommie wrote:
This is certainly an abuse of the system as I have no way of knowing that the "buyer" will not fulfill the buy order until the purchase and sale are made. No amount of research or investigation would give me any information or reason to believe the order would not be fulfilled.

It would be better if I knew that this was a margin order (maybe list it in yellow) then I would have knowledge that the buy order did not have full escrow and know that I am taking a risk, in the current scenario I have no idea there is risk involved until after I have been taken advantage of.

Basically I got ripped off on not only the ISK (800,000,000.00), but the weeks of play time spent earning that ISK. This is really upsetting and I hope that you will reconsider the "valid use of game mechanics" and make changes so hard working players don't get ripped off.

I feel ccp is supporting the con artist and don't understand why they cannot fix this simple flaw in their game mechanics.


How could it possibly matter to you whether a buy order is possible to fill or not? For all it ultimately matters, that order might have been filled by somebody else mere milliseconds before you tried to fill it. You are not entitled to fill a specific buy order, and could just as easily have lost your money whether the buy order was backed by Margin Trading or not. Oh, and by the way, tons of traders have the Margin Trading skill. It's always on. So even if such orders were marked for your pointless convenience, it wouldn't tell you much of anything in the first place.

If it marks the escrow as not being 100% you'd know not to try and fulfil it.


You miss one big fact. Pretty much every serious trader has margin trading skill trained. it affects every order they place. So basically the only orders that would not be red would be the ones placed by non traders.

The intent is that when the order is filled the remaining required isk to fill the order comes from the players wallet. Normally this works very well as the chances of all your buy orders being filled while none of your sell orders are filled allowing your wallet to deplete is quite small. This can happen to orders that were not meant to be scams if the trader has a lot of buy orders up while having poor sales for a time. Once there wallet is empty their orders will start failing, even if they do not want them too.

There are a few possible fixes to at least reduce the scamming related to this skill. However this may open even more doors for exploit.

First off many of the margin trade scammers use empty corp wallet divisions to set up the orders rather than emptying their wallet. Some of this could be reduced if it was made so the margin trading skill did not apply to orders set up with a corp wallet. this could also be beneficial to traders who want the option of setting up an order without using the margin trading skill. But this could be worked around to continue with the scam. It would just take a little more work to set up.

Anther more effective option is to let the orders complete, letting the characters wallet go into negative until sell orders are filled to bring it back up. However this could easily be exploited to gain isk by running alts wallets into huge negatives gaining isk for the main character.

If you can think of a way of modifying this mechanic to prevent margin scamming without losing the utility of margin trading I am sure you will get lots of support.
Prime
Argentium Astrum
#39 - 2012-09-15 11:14:06 UTC
The only REAL problem here is that even trying to account for the margin scam, the mechanics STILL break down.

IE -> someone lists a buy order for 500m (lets say 3 units minimum)

I happen to have the 3 items (independently and not by being suckered into buying it) Twisted

I sell the items for 20% (100m each), but all at once to fill the minimum, and at the right station

This should result in 300m - the mechanics SHOULD force the 20% price to at least be paid


ACTUAL RESULT: even selling at 20% fails and you end up with a market sell order, and ZERO isk

This is, IMHO, the REAL problem with ccp margin mechanics


CCP please answer why this is allowed? QuestionBear
Demolishar
United Aggression
#40 - 2012-09-15 13:01:21 UTC
Prime wrote:
The only REAL problem here is that even trying to account for the margin scam, the mechanics STILL break down.

IE -> someone lists a buy order for 500m (lets say 3 units minimum)

I happen to have the 3 items (independently and not by being suckered into buying it) Twisted

I sell the items for 20% (100m each), but all at once to fill the minimum, and at the right station

This should result in 300m - the mechanics SHOULD force the 20% price to at least be paid


ACTUAL RESULT: even selling at 20% fails and you end up with a market sell order, and ZERO isk

This is, IMHO, the REAL problem with ccp margin mechanics


CCP please answer why this is allowed? QuestionBear


Don't worry, there's a game mechanic behind this which is completely legit. It's what the smart scammers use, but there are plenty of idiots who think emptying wallet is all they need to do.
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