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Ore Imbalance
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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2012-08-17 21:12:45 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
All the People claiming high sec has more risk are idiots. You have invincible super police to protect you along with EHP buffs, multiple suicide ganking nerfs and cheap logistics. That sea of blue you whine about it requires a lot of effort to maintain and the logistics required to support mining in nullsec are insane. You're able to happily go afk and easily get 100% refine rates with little effort while nullsec dwellers have to bust their buttes to get anything mining related done. The risk : reward for highsec is way off and needs to be fixed. There should be far less reward in highsec or far more in low/null/wh.

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Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#42 - 2012-08-17 21:22:43 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Trouble is that nullsec has nearly zero industrial capacity, when compared to hisec.

Hisec station -- 50 MFG slots. You can have 1+ of these per system.
Nullsec station (outpost, non-drug base (source)) - 2 (Minmatar/Caldari), 4 (Gallente), 20 (Amarr). You can have ONLY ONE per system.

So, what this does is make everything (in null) work out of POS. It's *FAR* easier to export zyd/mega/etc and import ships (or compressed minerals) than build it there. If there was a larger industrial capacity in null, we wouldn't see as much of the minerals being exported, since they could be more easily used where they're obtained...


assembly arrays

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Sigras
Conglomo
#43 - 2012-08-18 08:00:17 UTC
^^ So much this its not even funny
Herr Hammer Draken
#44 - 2012-08-18 13:33:39 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
All the People claiming high sec has more risk are idiots. You have ivincible super police to protect you along with EHP buffs, multiple suicide ganking nerfs and cheap logistics. That sea of blue you whine about it requires a lot of effort to maintain and the logistics required to support mining in nullsec are insane. You're able to happily go afk and easily get 100% refine rates with little effort while nullsec dwellers have to bust their buttes to get anything mining related done. The risk : reward for highsec is way off and needs to be fixed. There should be far less reward in highsec or far more in low/null/wh.



LMAO, Guess what you can not have it both ways. I have heard it again and again from you guys that improving the mining barges will hurt ore prices because of supply and demand as if the gankers alone are responsible for the ore prices.
Well they are not supply and demand are what controls the price of ore INCLUDING null sec ores. If null sec ores are cheap it is only because of an oversupply of those ores to the market. That is not the fault of CCP or high sec miners. It is because null sec miners are too efficient and over mine supply as compared to the demand of those ores.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#45 - 2012-08-18 14:28:21 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
All the People claiming high sec has more risk are idiots. You have ivincible super police to protect you along with EHP buffs, multiple suicide ganking nerfs and cheap logistics. That sea of blue you whine about it requires a lot of effort to maintain and the logistics required to support mining in nullsec are insane. You're able to happily go afk and easily get 100% refine rates with little effort while nullsec dwellers have to bust their buttes to get anything mining related done. The risk : reward for highsec is way off and needs to be fixed. There should be far less reward in highsec or far more in low/null/wh.



LMAO, Guess what you can not have it both ways. I have heard it again and again from you guys that improving the mining barges will hurt ore prices because of supply and demand as if the gankers alone are responsible for the ore prices.
Well they are not supply and demand are what controls the price of ore INCLUDING null sec ores. If null sec ores are cheap it is only because of an oversupply of those ores to the market. That is not the fault of CCP or high sec miners. It is because null sec miners are too efficient and over mine supply as compared to the demand of those ores.

That's one theory. It's also easy to defend. Just point and say...it's their fault!

Although I think several years of consistent prices being upended around the same time CCP removes meta 0, drone poo, and now barge changes is more than a coincidence.

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Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2012-08-18 18:09:35 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
All the People claiming high sec has more risk are idiots. You have ivincible super police to protect you along with EHP buffs, multiple suicide ganking nerfs and cheap logistics. That sea of blue you whine about it requires a lot of effort to maintain and the logistics required to support mining in nullsec are insane. You're able to happily go afk and easily get 100% refine rates with little effort while nullsec dwellers have to bust their buttes to get anything mining related done. The risk : reward for highsec is way off and needs to be fixed. There should be far less reward in highsec or far more in low/null/wh.



LMAO, Guess what you can not have it both ways. I have heard it again and again from you guys that improving the mining barges will hurt ore prices because of supply and demand as if the gankers alone are responsible for the ore prices.
Well they are not supply and demand are what controls the price of ore INCLUDING null sec ores. If null sec ores are cheap it is only because of an oversupply of those ores to the market. That is not the fault of CCP or high sec miners. It is because null sec miners are too efficient and over mine supply as compared to the demand of those ores.


You aren't addressing any of my points so I assume you aren't capable of rational thought bit I'll throw you a bone.
The fact that nullsec mining is far less profitable than highsec mining is proof that there is something terribly wrong with the risk : reward for highsec mining. Highsec reward needs a nerf and/or nullsec reward needs a buff.

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Pisov viet
Perkone
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-08-18 18:26:25 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
All the People claiming high sec has more risk are idiots. You have ivincible super police to protect you along with EHP buffs, multiple suicide ganking nerfs and cheap logistics. That sea of blue you whine about it requires a lot of effort to maintain and the logistics required to support mining in nullsec are insane. You're able to happily go afk and easily get 100% refine rates with little effort while nullsec dwellers have to bust their buttes to get anything mining related done. The risk : reward for highsec is way off and needs to be fixed. There should be far less reward in highsec or far more in low/null/wh.



LMAO, Guess what you can not have it both ways. I have heard it again and again from you guys that improving the mining barges will hurt ore prices because of supply and demand as if the gankers alone are responsible for the ore prices.
Well they are not supply and demand are what controls the price of ore INCLUDING null sec ores. If null sec ores are cheap it is only because of an oversupply of those ores to the market. That is not the fault of CCP or high sec miners. It is because null sec miners are too efficient and over mine supply as compared to the demand of those ores.

Actually, before market and risk:reward comes into account, the amount of mineral required in ships should be looked upon.

Typically, it takes roughly 10 time more mining time to gather the tritanium required for a ship than the megacyte. In these conditions, and taking into account the NPC loots, it's hard to imagine how highend ore could not be overproduced.
Sun sue
InsufficientFunds LLC.
#48 - 2012-08-19 01:19:34 UTC
Get a Rorqual and start compressing & 0.0 logistics becomes as sweet as pie. Now you can mine ABC's or 123's and adjust to the trend of the market as you please.
Tenris Anis
Schattenengel Clan
#49 - 2012-08-19 02:08:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tenris Anis
Inquisitor Tyr wrote:
Dear CCP:

Scordite, Veldspar and Plagioclase are now more valuable to mine than Bistot. And Crockite is the 11th least valuable Ore.

What ever happened to the "Risk-Reward" scale I have heard referenced in so many Dev Blogs?

A void was created with the nerfing of drone minerals. Planning to fill it with something or does every ore in the game being roughly the same value constitute "balance" ?

If all ores being of equal value, and high sec ores being worth just as much as nullsec ores, is the vision for mining I suggest removing all the various ores and replacing it all with "RockOre". And instead of using different minerals, players can build all ships with 1 material - "RockOre". Real nice and simplestupid.

Ridiculous right? I suspect most Eve players aren't interested in something quite so dumbed down.

Unless you happen to be in a -1.0 truesec system that spawns arkonor naturally, you are just as well off mining in empire where you can AFK (something you can’t do in null). And no, the industry upgrades with hidden belts don’t make up for it. e.g. The level 1 upgrade contains mostly Spodumain, which is among the least valuable ores in the game (based on Jita prices at the time of this writing). So what’s there to look forward to for the upgrade - cockite and bistot worth less than veldspar and a couple roids with arkonor and mercoxit.

In Sum - Nullsec mining is significantly more risk, cost, and effort then empire Mining, and it requires your complete attention on local, but the reward for the extra effort is no longer there.


IF it would take more effort to mine abc than veld, may I ask you why prices suggest otherwise?
You are correct there is an imbalance and it should be fixed, mining abc should not make as accessible to everyone. Mining abc should be harder, and not the same numbling boring job it is.

Pisov viet wrote:
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:

Typically, it takes roughly 10 time more mining time to gather the tritanium required for a ship than the megacyte. In these conditions, and taking into account the NPC loots, it's hard to imagine how highend ore could not be overproduced.


Is it or is it not? Why bother with so called high end mining when its not worth the effort at all? Are miner really such idiots to waste their time?


[quote=La Nariz]
You aren't addressing any of my points so I assume you aren't capable of rational thought bit I'll throw you a bone.
The fact that nullsec mining is far less profitable than highsec mining is proof that there is something terribly wrong with the risk : reward for highsec mining. Highsec reward needs a nerf and/or nullsec reward needs a buff.


That is a false-cause fallacy of yours. The fact that null sec mining is far less profitable than high sec mining means just that high-sec mining is more profitable.
Is it really the risk vs reward questions? Than why the sandbox does not solve the problem? People seem to be fine to mine for that price. Are you calling all null sec miners idiots? All of them?

Is the risk really higher in well secured systems with only blues within 20 jumps for nullbears?

Maybe the problem is that because the risk is low, the cost are low and you can do it via botting and afk "playing" it is to popular in low sec to mine those "valuable" resources. Seems at least to me more realistic reason why miners produce more of something than there is demand for it.

If you are really, really pissed about this I strongly recommend you to hunt more null sec miners to decrease supply, this will increase risk and reward of null sec mining just fine.

Remove insurance.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#50 - 2012-08-19 04:56:53 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
All the People claiming high sec has more risk are idiots. You have ivincible super police to protect you along with EHP buffs, multiple suicide ganking nerfs and cheap logistics.


Confirming that high sec miners are mining behind a wall of blues, with intel channels that can tell you when a ganker is coming. Also, they can use a Rorq for extra boosts above what an Orca can give, as well as compression of ore to make haulling it easier.
Frying Doom
#51 - 2012-08-19 06:35:56 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
All the People claiming high sec has more risk are idiots. You have ivincible super police to protect you along with EHP buffs, multiple suicide ganking nerfs and cheap logistics. That sea of blue you whine about it requires a lot of effort to maintain and the logistics required to support mining in nullsec are insane. You're able to happily go afk and easily get 100% refine rates with little effort while nullsec dwellers have to bust their buttes to get anything mining related done. The risk : reward for highsec is way off and needs to be fixed. There should be far less reward in highsec or far more in low/null/wh.

If it was that hard fewer people would be doing it and the price would not be on the floor.

The fact that the market IS oversupplied and that the number of people mining is WAY WAY UP, is a good indication the its not that hard.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#52 - 2012-08-19 07:51:10 UTC
Nullsec mining is safer than high sec. That's why nullsec ores are so freaken cheap.

Leave it as it is and let the free market sort it out.
Pipa Porto
#53 - 2012-08-19 10:30:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Pipa Porto
Paikis wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
All the People claiming high sec has more risk are idiots. You have ivincible super police to protect you along with EHP buffs, multiple suicide ganking nerfs and cheap logistics.


Confirming that high sec miners are mining behind a wall of blues, with intel channels that can tell you when a ganker is coming. Also, they can use a Rorq for extra boosts above what an Orca can give, as well as compression of ore to make haulling it easier.


High Sec miners could set up intel channels, they choose not to. Remember, those intel channels aren't automatic, the way CONCORD is, there are people putting in effort, and that effort keeps them safe.


Sending your uncompressed, unrefined Ore to Jita from wherever you are in HS (via RF/Push) is cheaper by far than moving any amount of ore from just about anywhere in Null (I suppose if you mined in EC-P8R, logistics would be pretty cheap).

Compression costs money in HW consumption, and JF (or Rorq) transport to HS costs (quite a lot of) money in Topes consumption, and on top of that, you have whatever it costs to ship it to Jita (doing it yourself isn't free, same way minerals you mine aren't).

So Compression just makes hauling a little bit less painful than it otherwise would be. HS hauling is much, much easier.


Anyway, the Nullsec ores are cheap because there are still massive Drone poop era mineral stockpiles being drawn down.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2012-08-19 17:19:51 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
^^: Read that post Pipa hit a bunch of good things.
Pipa Porto wrote:

Anyway, the Nullsec ores are cheap because there are still massive Drone poop era mineral stockpiles being drawn down.


Tenris Anis wrote:

La Nariz wrote:

You aren't addressing any of my points so I assume you aren't capable of rational thought bit I'll throw you a bone.
The fact that nullsec mining is far less profitable than highsec mining is proof that there is something terribly wrong with the risk : reward for highsec mining. Highsec reward needs a nerf and/or nullsec reward needs a buff.


That is a false-cause fallacy of yours. The fact that null sec mining is far less profitable than high sec mining means just that high-sec mining is more profitable.
Is it really the risk vs reward questions? Than why the sandbox does not solve the problem? People seem to be fine to mine for that price. Are you calling all null sec miners idiots? All of them?

Is the risk really higher in well secured systems with only blues within 20 jumps for nullbears?

Maybe the problem is that because the risk is low, the cost are low and you can do it via botting and afk "playing" it is to popular in low sec to mine those "valuable" resources. Seems at least to me more realistic reason why miners produce more of something than there is demand for it.

If you are really, really pissed about this I strongly recommend you to hunt more null sec miners to decrease supply, this will increase risk and reward of null sec mining just fine.


That fallacy thing you really should research it before you decide to try and use it Roll.

It is a risk : reward problem. In highsec can you be hot dropped? In highsec can you be bubbled? In highsec can roaming gangs comprised of people who have not wardeced you shoot you without concord retaliation? In high sec do you have to use jump freighters/rorquals to move your minerals/ore? In highsec do you have battleship rats in the belts/sites? In highsec can you be bombed? In highsec do you have to use ridiculous methods that CCP disdains (gun compression) to move your minerals in a less pain inducing format? In highsec do you have to interact with any other group of rival players to guarantee a modicum of safety? In highsec are you required to run intel channels to operate efficiently?

The answer to all of the above is no and they are all good reason why the risk : reward dynamic of nullsec mining is way off balance when compared to highsec mining. The risk for nullsec mining is way higher than the reward and the risk for highsec mining is way lower than the reward.

Did it ever cross your mind that CCP designs the game but is not omniscient and does not see all of the consequences of their changes right away? CCP makes mistakes (often) when making alterations and this risk : reward problem is a huge example of that. Furthermore the "sandbox" does nothing it is an abstract concept used to define the bounds of operating in the game, it cannot fix anything.

The only thing I'm willing to call nullsec miners is lazy and that's because they are not actively campagining against the total BS that is the high reward and nearly non-existant risk of highsec mining.

I should address this too because I know there will be whining about it. The "sea of blue" that is constantly whined about requires massive social effort to maintain and is crucial to being a sov holding alliance in nullsec. Whining about "sea's of blue" is basically screaming NERF MAKING FRIENDS! Highsec people are perfectly capable of creating intel channels and "sea's of blue" around them as well but it requires effort and that seems to be something that highsec people will not have anything to do with.

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Matius Toskavich
State War Academy
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-08-19 22:47:34 UTC
So things take a little effort, oh boohoo cry me a river. Null is safer than High Sec, now HTFU.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2012-08-19 23:01:21 UTC
Matius Toskavich wrote:
I am a tardly npc alt that does not provide any argument and howls drivel


Gee thanks for that.

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Dystopia Arkaral
Doomheim
#57 - 2012-08-19 23:03:08 UTC
If you are in an organised group, logistic and production in null are pretty easy

a few jump bridges, a supply of ice and you use frieghters

An organised indy corp can make very good isk selling prefited alliance equiped ships
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2012-08-19 23:10:05 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Dystopia Arkaral wrote:
If you are in an organised group, logistic and production in null are pretty easy

a few jump bridges, a supply of ice and you use frieghters

An organised indy corp can make very good isk selling prefited alliance equiped ships


Not nearly as easy as an organized highsec group. You have no idea what you're talking about, freighters in nullsec are free killmails. Which is why Rorquals and jump freighters must be used to move things around. So to compare to highsec mining logistics nullsec mining logistics require:

1. Liquid ozone,
2. A cyno ship,
3. Isotopes,
4. Lots and lots of awareness,
5. Compression.

Highsec mining logistics requires:
1. Clicking the autopilot button.

There is way more risk in the nullsec portion than in the highsec portion which is as it should be. The problem comes in that the highsec portion carries far more reward than the nullsec portion.

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Pipa Porto
#59 - 2012-08-20 02:08:28 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Highsec mining logistics requires:
1. Clicking the autopilot button.

There is way more risk in the nullsec portion than in the highsec portion which is as it should be. The problem comes in that the highsec portion carries far more reward than the nullsec portion.



To be fair, you also have to make sure your cargo is worth leas than (2b now, is it?). (Once Crimewatch comes out, that'll be 5B+). So you have to look at that little number in the bottom right of the cargo window, which is hard.


Once the stockpiles dry up, it's going to balance out fine. Nullsec ores (except Spod because nobody likes Spod) will float based on the relative numbers of HS vs Nullsec miners. There's no way to balance an unlimited source of resources such that Nullsec ores will always be better than HS ores (I mean, they could re-balance Grav Sites to include huge Veld roids, which would effectively add HS ore miners).

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
Revolution Rising
Last-Light Holdings
#60 - 2012-08-20 04:32:15 UTC
I honestly think this has more to do with the botters and RMT factories having their system of play destroyed more than anything.

The prices on Zydrine and Megacyte were being constantly driven down for years by drone regions and botters. This meant the botters controlled price and thus controlled how much of the low-ends were viable for mining also - if you have X Zydrine ready for a Titan build, then you only need Y Tritanium to start the build.

In turn this likely drove away many of the mining corps in empire that once upon a time made money from trit - replaced again by more botters.

The lack of botters now has possibly created a void in some of the variously different mining fields. The prices of Zydrine and Megacyte went up, more people in 0.0 mined them thus creating a need for more tritanium/mexallon etc.. which isn't being met, thus the price rise.

It might take some time for those niches to fill again with players willing to mine the ores.

Basically they shook the tree, lots of stuff fell out - not all the primary producers are being replaced very quickly I'd imagine.

.