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FAO CCP Hilmar and Eve Producers - NeX Items and Incarna : A proposal

Author
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#21 - 2011-10-11 18:55:56 UTC
Miraqu wrote:
I partly agree.

I fully support, that the items should be produced by players and simply belong to the game world (FiS). The items should be destructible, should need special skills to manufacture and could be destroyed.

They have so many resources they can build on, that they could use the PI interface or even the character creation interface to make a clothes creation interface.


Cool

Quote:
However they should not have any stats.
Nex is meant as something to express yourself in an avatar-environment.


I have a bit of an issue with this "express yourself" thing - since it does seem to play into the $1000 pants rhetoric of the NeX marketing men. I would be happy with letting people change the dyes and patterns on stuff to "express themselves" individually but I do worry that clothing without stats and attributes is all too easy to relegate to the NeX ghetto and that will prevent any actual integration with the Eve economy.

Quote:
Soon it would become mandatory to use a certain item to gain the necessary bonuses and the idea behind this would evaporate really fast. If item XX gives XX bonus to XXX then you need to wear this in order to be a good/elite/pro/whatever XXX pilot.


Depends on the complexity doesn't it really?

I mean take implants and implant sets at the moment - there is no one optimum implant set and instead you combine individual implants to make the ideal combination for you. Not everyone uses slave implants because not everyone flies passive armour tankers. Not everyone uses +5% large laser damage implants because not everyone flies abaddons. Even with the same ship preference you have different combinations of implants to work in different ways. Make the system complex and varied enough and you can have a big range of customization. Allow players to customize the look and feel further with dyes and patterns and you are golden.

Quote:
If CCP has the vision to enable players to express oneself and do a certain RP-style character-building then you would essentially destroy the idea behind Incarna with certain items having certain stats.
It seems important for a good portion of players to have something/someone to identify with and it also seems to be a factor which prevents some players to play / start / enjoy eve.
So expressing oneself and being a , lets say effective, player would be mutually exclusive.


I can see your argument but I don't agree with it - given a big enough range of stuff and varied customization options.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Mokokan
Transtar Services
#22 - 2011-10-11 18:57:03 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:

Again its detail, I was more talking the big picture but would you agree with ship skins effecting the performance of ships ? stealth coating reducing sig at the cost of shield points etc? Do you believe that kind of thing would be preferable than paying NeX aurum for skins that magically appear in the game and have no players involved in the production and reselling?


Definitely not. If you want to rig your ship for stealth, then use the appropriate rig or Subsystem. The one thing we agree on, is that items in the NEX, or out, should not spring from thin air. I see no problem buying and selling ships, moudules, ammo, etc from establishments, in station, or from Joe's Bar and Trading post, located on an asteroid in belt 5. As long as it comes from player discovery, invention, or manufacture; and exchanged for in-game currency.

Ship skins? Magic boots/dresses/shirts? WTF? If you're going to try to sneak this WoW crap in, at least CALL it something syfy-ish. The main reason to abolish the NEX would be to get rid of the one thing you are advocating = that purchased vanity items effect the game.

NO

..... If for no other reason than the fact you aren't wearing the darn clothes while you're in your pod. Your ship doesn't have a skin. It has a hull. The devil is in the details. [insert additional cliche here]

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#23 - 2011-10-11 19:01:09 UTC
I am Herzog Wolfhammer and I agree with the OP.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#24 - 2011-10-11 19:02:29 UTC
Mokokan wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:

Again its detail, I was more talking the big picture but would you agree with ship skins effecting the performance of ships ? stealth coating reducing sig at the cost of shield points etc? Do you believe that kind of thing would be preferable than paying NeX aurum for skins that magically appear in the game and have no players involved in the production and reselling?


Definitely not. If you want to rig your ship for stealth, then use the appropriate rig or Subsystem. The one thing we agree on, is that items in the NEX, or out, should not spring from thin air. I see no problem buying and selling ships, moudules, ammo, etc from establishments, in station, or from Joe's Bar and Trading post, located on an asteroid in belt 5. As long as it comes from player discovery, invention, or manufacture; and exchanged for in-game currency.

Ship skins? Magic boots/dresses/shirts? WTF? If you're going to try to sneak this WoW crap in, at least CALL it something syfy-ish. The main reason to abolish the NEX would be to get rid of the one thing you are advocating = that purchased vanity items effect the game.

NO

..... If for no other reason than the fact you aren't wearing the darn clothes while you're in your pod. Your ship doesn't have a skin. It has a hull. The devil is in the details. [insert additional cliche here]




Of course - if you just call it a vanity only "paintjob" its much easier for the evil NeX marketeers to argue since its "vanity only" it is fine being a Microtransaction right?

Once "vanity items" are produced by players using traditional in-game methods and have some kind of an effect on the game they cease to be "vanity items" (in the parliance of greedy MT gougers)/

My reason for wanting NeX abolished is to remove the obscenity of $ bought indestructable items from the game universe. To my mind these things need to be considered as visual implants really. They can have an effect but they must be destructable if you are using them. Its a quid pro quo kinda thing.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Takamori Maruyama
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2011-10-11 19:47:31 UTC
Agreed with some of the ideas....But.

They only should keep it to clothing no more than that.
Just appeal, no player involved.

And with a price range of 1-8 bucks per cloth piece.
After they are done with the social areas of EVE , because clothing have no sense with no other person to show it.(only if you are fapping to your avatar, now that is another case)


As for the paint jobs in the ship, they should be for free and a way to players to make money by developing and putting their artworks in the market, so players that enjoyed that ship paint job would pay it in isk to have it etc etc.

Loud and clear...

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#26 - 2011-10-11 20:50:57 UTC
Apparel with stats? No way. What kind of outrageous advantage should get someone willing to buy the monocle?

Looking cool or slick IS a bonus -to how much you attach to your avatar. And once you go social, you will see smart dressed people and clown dresed people, the same as today you see nice, thought out avatars and randomized scum.

Allowing the players to pay for "feeling that they are themselves" is a very smart move in a game where every ship looks like the next one of her kind. What is not so smart and falls beyond stupidity is to set up a store where items cost much more than what a honest player can afford to pay for the limited reward of "feeling like herself". Shall I pay my suscription or buy one single bloody skirt? Are you serious, CCP? Since when vanity was "endgame" and required to be a powerplayer, or very likely be a cheater (EMT, botting) to afford it?

And i don't want to buy low tier stuff. i am not "low tier", I've been playing this bloody game for 3 years and I don't feel like being treated like an underdog because I can't spend more than a PLEX per month in non-essential gameplay (ships, modules, suscriptions).

And because, you know, in real life I CAN buy myself 1,000 $ jeans. Jus't don't feel inclined to it, same as I don't feel inclined to pull my C.C. and get all the PLEXes I want. I CAN but I DON'T WANT. What would be the point of playing then?

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you

Iosue
League of Gentlemen
The Initiative.
#27 - 2011-10-11 21:26:27 UTC
Jade,
Some great suggestions here, + rep for that.

I am 100% behind your idea to make clothing/gear player produced and allow the purchase of OOG items with Aurum. But, as someone else mentioned, where I see this breaking down is the idea of clothing imparting stats for pod pilots. If we are to remain true to EVE lore, there doesn’t seem to be a place for this, at least in space. However, there are a number of activities that one can partake in while docked in station that could benefit from clothing stats. As an indy player, I see a huge opportunity for some new content.

What about making the stat improvements pertain to refining, research, invention, PI or any other activities one can do in station? I know one can also do these many of these activities in space, but they could get the clothing stat bonus while docked in station using CQ. This would drastically improve the usage rates for CQ and give indy players something new to chew on.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#28 - 2011-10-12 08:12:48 UTC
Iosue wrote:
Jade,
Some great suggestions here, + rep for that.

I am 100% behind your idea to make clothing/gear player produced and allow the purchase of OOG items with Aurum. But, as someone else mentioned, where I see this breaking down is the idea of clothing imparting stats for pod pilots. If we are to remain true to EVE lore, there doesn’t seem to be a place for this, at least in space. However, there are a number of activities that one can partake in while docked in station that could benefit from clothing stats. As an indy player, I see a huge opportunity for some new content.

What about making the stat improvements pertain to refining, research, invention, PI or any other activities one can do in station? I know one can also do these many of these activities in space, but they could get the clothing stat bonus while docked in station using CQ. This would drastically improve the usage rates for CQ and give indy players something new to chew on.


Good ideas all round really. Makes sense that the clothing would give bonus for activities undertaken while wearing clothing :)

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Mokokan
Transtar Services
#29 - 2011-10-12 13:00:58 UTC
NO. The only bonus your boots should give you is +2 inches of HEIGHT. The only bonus your monocle should give you is +4 watery eye. What is this fascination with magic underwear? If the PLAYER operating an establishment in a station is so inclined to give you a discount on your purchase because your cute avatar is wearing an especially short skirt, then that should be his drunken CHOICE. Not an ingame mechanic. You wearing a lab coat should have nothing to do with your refining skills or how efficiently your corporation processes moon goo.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#30 - 2011-10-12 14:25:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
Mokokan wrote:
NO. The only bonus your boots should give you is +2 inches of HEIGHT. The only bonus your monocle should give you is +4 watery eye. What is this fascination with magic underwear? If the PLAYER operating an establishment in a station is so inclined to give you a discount on your purchase because your cute avatar is wearing an especially short skirt, then that should be his drunken CHOICE. Not an ingame mechanic. You wearing a lab coat should have nothing to do with your refining skills or how efficiently your corporation processes moon goo.


Leaving aside the straw man examples etc.

The problem with your position is that in keeping these things "pure vanity" you make it easy for CCP to keep nodding at the divide between "vanity" and "non vanity" and continue the NeX store/Aurum methodolgy as is.

Your argument is dangerous because it easily promotes the status quo we have now and encourages further expansion into "vanity products" for the future.

For example.

Right now we have clothing ... "vanity!" (you say) and perhaps many agree with you. So CCP nod and keep the NeX store with its current functionality.

Ship painting comes along ... "vanity!" (you say) and instead of making this a player service CCP sell ship colour kits in the NeX store and we've lost some player controlled customization.

Then its Alliance logos on ships ... "vanity! errr well maybe" (you say) and CCP stick that in the NeX store but in actuality in a game like Eve publicising your corp/alliance and promoting yourselves in game is anything but pure vanity - its competitive business smarts - its the pvp of attracting recruits and building your corp brand. But by letting CCP off the hook with the "vanity only" clothing you gave room for them to make all sorts of additional thingd "vanity" and sold in NeX rather than being provided as traditional content.

The reason I want clothing and accessaries considered another form of stated/with attributes content and customization is it shoots this pernicious pretend divide between vanity and non vanity in the head.

Argue for the status quo on this and you are leaving the door open for all kinds of things we might not want to consider "vanity" content being categorized and delivered as such.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#31 - 2011-10-12 15:05:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Ciar Meara
A lot of agreements with this post which is nice off course. But the objections are the most interesting part, those of us who don't like the fact that items would give an ingame bonus must remember that:


- They wouldn't be bought with aurum but ingame by players using isk
- They would be procured/produced/crafted by players
- The bonuses would be only to logical items
- As suggested only when actually wearing the clothes

For instance: (top of my head; purely speculation wise)

- Monocle gives bonus when scavenging equipment in the hangar bay you have your scavenging equipment setup (seeing structural weakness) or hate/likes from certain NPC's. Admittance based on fitted characteristics (high class clubs)
- Sarum ceremonial robe would give you a bonus for missions of the Sarum family (or higher level missions)
- Heavily tattooed Minmatar face would get you nowhere with Sarum family but high on the Thukker tribe list or even earn you bad/good points in political circles inside Minmatar tribes.


I don't think anybody is proposing that any pair of boots or any other outfit no matter how fancy would actually improve your ship stats, unless they are directly linked to ship performance, just like implants are. After all special goggles can 'partly' do stuff an implant can do, theoretically. The monocle is an implant as is the pirate patch like items on the nex store on sisi. They could do implant-like stuff but perhaps with downside/upside kinda stuff.

It comes to mind that Implant production, based on items gathered and produced is another item that could be moved into incarna. I can't say how many times I have seen crafters working away at social areas/private tables in so many other mmo's crafting jewellery, weapons, arrows, fletching, etc. It actually boggles the mind that all this has not been thought out or reviewed by CCP to be included into incarna and instead has been moved to the sterile NeX environment. No wonder they can't find anything to do.

I do however wish to state that any kind of magical cloak, boots of extra armour or any kind of other silly stats enhancing piece of clothing is a no go. And off course any kind of advantage bought with an item in the NeX store with Aurum is just plain CCP corporate suicide. In no way should my post be regarded as a suggestion into that realm of idiocy.

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]

Mokokan
Transtar Services
#32 - 2011-10-12 15:55:42 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Mokokan wrote:
NO. The only bonus your boots should give you is +2 inches of HEIGHT. The only bonus your monocle should give you is +4 watery eye. What is this fascination with magic underwear? If the PLAYER operating an establishment in a station is so inclined to give you a discount on your purchase because your cute avatar is wearing an especially short skirt, then that should be his drunken CHOICE. Not an ingame mechanic. You wearing a lab coat should have nothing to do with your refining skills or how efficiently your corporation processes moon goo.


Leaving aside the straw man examples etc.



The problem with your position is that in keeping these things "pure vanity" you make it easy for CCP to keep nodding at the divide between "vanity" and "non vanity" and continue the NeX store/Aurum methodolgy as is.

Your argument is dangerous because it easily promotes the status quo we have now and encourages further expansion into "vanity products" for the future.


I agree. Your straw looks a lot better than mine. Smile
Don't see any danger just yet, please continue...

Quote:
For example.

Right now we have clothing ... "vanity!" (you say) and perhaps many agree with you. So CCP nod and keep the NeX store with its current functionality.


Not my preferred choice, but ok if you say so.


Quote:
Ship painting comes along ... "vanity!" (you say) and instead of making this a player service CCP sell ship colour kits in the NeX store and we've lost some player controlled customization.


Well, if we don't pay them to do the actual work, we'll never see ship customization. IMHO

Quote:
Then its Alliance logos on ships ... "vanity! errr well maybe" (you say) and CCP stick that in the NeX store but in actuality in a game like Eve publicising your corp/alliance and promoting yourselves in game is anything but pure vanity - its competitive business smarts - its the pvp of attracting recruits and building your corp brand. But by letting CCP off the hook with the "vanity only" clothing you gave room for them to make all sorts of additional thingd "vanity" and sold in NeX rather than being provided as traditional content.

The reason I want clothing and accessaries considered another form of stated/with attributes content and customization is it shoots this pernicious pretend divide between vanity and non vanity in the head.

Argue for the status quo on this and you are leaving the door open for all kinds of things we might not want to consider "vanity" content being categorized and delivered as such.


Alliance logos on ships sounds great. I'm all for it. Still, just getting CCP to put them in game before the Apocalypse is a bit iffy if there's nothing in it for them. I'm just sayin' .
I think that's great. Just find a way shoot that pernicious watchacallit and close that drafty door without having clothes, boots, paint, etc have any game affecting stats.

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#33 - 2011-10-12 16:16:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
Mokokan wrote:

Quote:
Ship painting comes along ... "vanity!" (you say) and instead of making this a player service CCP sell ship colour kits in the NeX store and we've lost some player controlled customization.


Well, if we don't pay them to do the actual work, we'll never see ship customization. IMHO


See this right here is a big problem. Just when did things change to make ship customization somehow an "optional vanity thing" rather than a part of the Eve Online that our subscriptions pay for?

This is the kind of pernicious shifting goalpost that makes me so deeply suspicious of the NeX concept.


Why the heck is ship colourscheme and logo customization not a part of the core game that paying customers can expect to get included with their subscription?

Mokokan wrote:
Alliance logos on ships sounds great. I'm all for it. Still, just getting CCP to put them in game before the Apocalypse is a bit iffy if there's nothing in it for them. I'm just sayin' .


Well ultimately whats in it for them is that the game continues with a healthy subscriber base right? If we learned any lesson from the past summer its that the expected hordes of eager new incarna-ites didn't arrive to make up for the mass unsubs of unsatisfied long term players. Unless CCP keep us happy subs will drop and their ability to fund their future projects suffer.

Motive enough to give us content we want?

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

JitaPriceChecker2
Doomheim
#34 - 2011-10-12 17:32:25 UTC
Such a policy should have been form the start it would be a pure win.

It is a subscription based game and some features ( like clothing creations ) was denied from us.

-1 Sandbox and CCP.
+1 OP.
Mokokan
Transtar Services
#35 - 2011-10-12 20:16:11 UTC
All your very long and quite well-thought-out reasoning and further exposition boils down to "I want magic clothes" to me. Figure out how to do all those things without introducing "magic clothes" and I'm on board. Big smile

Selene D'Celeste
The D'Celeste Trading Company
ISK Six
#36 - 2011-10-12 20:46:33 UTC
Salx wrote:
First Off Holy wall of text bat man!


I see you are not familiar with the work that Mr. Constantine has done over the years.

Visit www.eohpoker.com and enjoy EVE's oldest ISK gaming service!

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#37 - 2011-10-12 21:50:14 UTC
Not a bad concept, all in all.

I do see one advantage. If current (and hopefully expanded and customizable) EVE store content were to become available through the Nex you could spend isk to purchase those items. Suddenly the idea of buying a high priced coffee mug with a Vexor on it becomes more attractive.

I must point out that all of these objectives could be accomplished by simply selling BPC's through the Nex... including items that confer advantages. Yes, I know the masses would scream Pay to Win, but the fact remains that even items that confer ingame advantages would end up for sale on the secondary market for purchase with ISK. The person with lots of cash would have absolutely NO advantage over a player with lots of ISK.

Lets face it, even now most people do NOT spend cash on Nex items. Instead they spend ISK to buy the PLEX they convert to Aurum to purchase items from the Nex, without even touching on the buying that occurs directly for ISK on the secondary market.

If BPC's were sold thru the Nex the entire EVE production/material aquisition sandbox ethic would be involved. Granted, the whole production process would have to be thought out completely, but that would be a very worthy way to spend dev resources.

I do share your concerns as to where the line is drawn between items available now for a fee, and items that should simply be part of your subscription. But frankly if CCP feels the need to increase revenue, I'd much rather people be able to purchase items that they may want and voluntarily give extra money for over the other option... that being raise everyones subscription rate.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#38 - 2011-10-13 10:29:58 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Not a bad concept, all in all.

I do see one advantage. If current (and hopefully expanded and customizable) EVE store content were to become available through the Nex you could spend isk to purchase those items. Suddenly the idea of buying a high priced coffee mug with a Vexor on it becomes more attractive.

I must point out that all of these objectives could be accomplished by simply selling BPC's through the Nex... including items that confer advantages. Yes, I know the masses would scream Pay to Win, but the fact remains that even items that confer ingame advantages would end up for sale on the secondary market for purchase with ISK. The person with lots of cash would have absolutely NO advantage over a player with lots of ISK.


Yeah technically I agree with you but it would confuse matters on the pay to win argument as you conclude. On balance I'd much rather have NeX made out of game only and have the in-game / out of game division between MT and core subs content for honest clarity.

NeX implementation does just scream to me of the old lazy bargain-basement thriftstore content that we've had for 2 years that CCP have now vowed to reverse and improve from and I think part of that clean sweep could well be the removal of NeX store for in-game items.

Quote:
Lets face it, even now most people do NOT spend cash on Nex items. Instead they spend ISK to buy the PLEX they convert to Aurum to purchase items from the Nex, without even touching on the buying that occurs directly for ISK on the secondary market.


All true.

Quote:
If BPC's were sold thru the Nex the entire EVE production/material aquisition sandbox ethic would be involved. Granted, the whole production process would have to be thought out completely, but that would be a very worthy way to spend dev resources.


But the question is "why?" (do it that way) - in marketing you have the concept of a "poisoned brand" and in Eve NeX is pretty much that. Why not just use the traditional market and have NPC corps sell the appropriate blueprints to maintain suspension of disbelief and ongoing coherence in the sandbox?

Quote:
I do share your concerns as to where the line is drawn between items available now for a fee, and items that should simply be part of your subscription. But frankly if CCP feels the need to increase revenue, I'd much rather people be able to purchase items that they may want and voluntarily give extra money for over the other option... that being raise everyones subscription rate.


If they need more money they have the PLEX mechanic. Simply make desirable content in game that people want to pay ISK for. If its time poor cash rich players involved they'll buy PLEX and convert to access that content. There is no need for a duplicate currency for that purpose.

But really, I think the reality is there IS money, its just a question of where it is spent. Last couple of years CCP underspent on Eve hoping to get away with thriftstore delivery and trading on subscriber loyalty to see them through. This summer the bubble burst and they realized that it wasn't going to be sustainable any longer. At this point all bets are off and CCP needed to completely revise their Eve funding model and divert all efforts to keeping subscriber faith. Thats the big picture now and nickel and diming the player base over Incarna/ship customization content is going to be financially-irrelevant in the face of 10-20k dropped subs (or whatever the figure actually is).

CCP's challenge is to win those subs back and you don't do it by overtly double-charging for what should be core content.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Bratwurst0r
DARK ORCHESTRA
#39 - 2011-10-13 12:29:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Bratwurst0r
While i share your ideas (although stat-cloths is something carefully to be balanced or it becomes mandatory = everyone looks the same) i don't think we live in times where CCP can and wants to go down that road. They look at WoT and drool.

Its way easier to do this in an MT-model (agressive MT with stat-cloths), and i'm sure many at CCP wanted to do this already. They are doing it with Dust514 anyway.

Lets face it: everything is already in place to do it both ways, CCP choose to do it the easy way, so you are of course right, if they have the choice they will go that road. You just seem to ignore the fact they are doing it already, and dispite Hilmars letter (i want to believe) how realistic is a 180° turn?
Mokokan
Transtar Services
#40 - 2011-10-13 14:49:27 UTC
CCP drools at the thought of WoT's business model? Hmmmm. I happily play WoT every afternoon. It's a blast. I would gladly subscribe to that game if it were an option and it allowed me access to their full tank inventory. Under their MT model, I've spent nothing, nor will I. I get plenty of kills with my 'free' tanks and 'non-gold' ammo.

How does that work, exactly? Is there a small minority that buys enough pay-to-win stuff to carry everybody, or am I the exception, with most people happily "dropping quarters" in the game slot for every ammo load?