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The new Mackinkaw, new king miner, better than a hauler, all in one, afk mining machine.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#301 - 2012-08-16 07:13:11 UTC
Sarton Wells wrote:
Those same annoyances apply to the mackinaw as well. Though I agree that a "real world" test would be the best comparison between the two. I'd love to see someone doing it :)


Well I have both Retrievers, Macks and Hulks. As for annoyances the Macks deal with them in the smoothest way of the bunch.
I can even loot the NPCs mods without getting cargo issues (expecially faction NPCs are always a good plus to loot).

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#302 - 2012-08-16 16:24:46 UTC
Quote:
My industry alt has been CEO in an industry corp (Minerva) that peaked at 50 members, all involved in mining operations both in hi and 0.0 sec. Just in May I was having multi-corp mining ops with 2 other corps.
I am a sample of a mining op because I have done and organized it in practice and if I tell you that Hulks are NOT worth the hassle maybe it's because it's true. The crystal menial task per se would not be so bad if it did not also add to a number of other purposedly imposed hassles. Try, just TRY to defend a wet paper fleet against motivated gankers.
I have seen how it goes, the only place where Hulks may still be used is strong sov 0.0.
But wait, I did not read that Tiericide = one ship class now is relegated to strong sov 0.0.
On paper you can pretend to do the fleet thingy in hi sec but hey, even the same friends who ALWAYS used Hulks now all replaced them with Macks.

Are everybody who don't conform to your theories "soloers" now?


I have organized and run protection on many a 0.0 mining operation. The current Hulk is by far and away the best tool for the job.

You keep switching tracks mentally and looking at this from a High Sec mining fleet perspective, and the Hulk is not ideal for this task. Whether you like it personally or not, this is by design.

Tiericide is intended to provide actual roles for the various ships to perform and see use in, as opposed to the former system of one ship clearly invalidating all other ships in it's class because it is the best at everything.

With mining vessels they have executed this plan quite precisely.

To be frank, nobody cares if the Hulk isn't used much in High Sec, it's role has been gear specifically to a fleet environment that can be secured... which is only likely to happen in 0.0.... and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. We have many ships in game that are designed to either only function fully (or to their best advantage) in 0.0, just as there are ships in common usage in high sec that are not really practical for use in null compared to other options.

Each mining ship now has advantages and disadvantages that give them appeal to differing groups. If your group doesn't need them you should really stop to realize that another group does.

At this point CCP will likely wait and watch the metrics on this. If the Hulk turns out to in fact be underused they can tweak it at a later date. Either way, it's no skin off your nose.

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#303 - 2012-08-16 16:51:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Playing forum sheriff is not your business.
Good thing, then, that I'm not doing that. I'm merely stating the fact that while everyone is talking about suicide ganks, he steps up with a nonsensical fit and claims that it is enough to protect against a catalyst gank… and when called on it tries to get away by discussing a completely different and completely irrelevant scenario.

Quote:
Close to useless tends to none.
Good thing, then, that they're not useless and tend to be quite plentiful.

Quote:
It's not about AFK work.
You've never actually paid attention to any of the miner threads, have you? Of course AFK work is a factor — the miners themselves say so.

Quote:
But wait, I did not read that Tiericide = one ship class now is relegated to strong sov 0.0.
…and no ship is. Fancy that. Tiercide = every ship has its specific role rather than just be +1 to the previous model. The role of the Hulk is one that does not correspond to how your average highsec miner goes about his business. It still performs to spec and its purpose is well served by its design.

Quote:
Tier 3 BCs have this thing: they effing shine at their purpose.
…as do Hulks, and using very similar trade-offs. The Tier-3s are much stronger given the right circumstances but are a fair bit weaker at all times. This is much the same as the relationship you're complaining about for Hulks, only the ratios are switched around.
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#304 - 2012-08-16 17:21:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Smohq Anmirorz
Tippia wrote:
But wait, I did not read that Tiericide = one ship class now is relegated to strong sov 0.0.[/quote[quote]]…and no ship is. Fancy that. Tiercide = every ship has its specific role rather than just be +1 to the previous model. The role of the Hulk is one that does not correspond to how your average highsec miner goes about his business. It still performs to spec and its purpose is well served by its design.


It's not just supposed to have a role, it's supposed to have an appealing role. Not many people seem to find it appealing.
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#305 - 2012-08-16 17:43:15 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
Tippia wrote:
But wait, I did not read that Tiericide = one ship class now is relegated to strong sov 0.0.
…and no ship is. Fancy that. Tiercide = every ship has its specific role rather than just be +1 to the previous model. The role of the Hulk is one that does not correspond to how your average highsec miner goes about his business. It still performs to spec and its purpose is well served by its design.


It's not just supposed to have a role, it's supposed to have an appealing role. Not many people seem to find it appealing.
[/quote]

It's still pretty early to be making a statement like that.

Hisec miners, being a lazy bunch (and I include myself in that list), simply replaced Hulks with Macks in a 1-for-1 exchange. In some cases (solo mining or dual-boxing with an alt) this might make sense. It takes more forethought and logi support to make the Hulk shine, but I can verify that even for a dual-boxer a Hulk provides a better ISK/hr return than a Mack does if you plan your op right.

The Covetor/Hulk is meant for fleet ops. Hisec miners don't generally participate in big mining fleets -- though they should, at least once in a while -- but lots of people in 0.0 do, and I expect that's where the new Hulk will really come into its own.

"Appealing" is in the eye of the beholder (or the Retriever, you might say).
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#306 - 2012-08-16 17:52:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Idris Helion wrote:


The Covetor/Hulk is meant for fleet ops. Hisec miners don't generally participate in big mining fleets -- though they should, at least once in a while -- but lots of people in 0.0 do, and I expect that's where the new Hulk will really come into its own.

"Appealing" is in the eye of the beholder (or the Retriever, you might say).


I have been in 15-30 ships ops. They might not be a blob but they should be "enough" to see this famous Hulk shine.

But it does not, even with no gankers around.

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Sarton Wells
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#307 - 2012-08-16 17:53:21 UTC
Idris Helion wrote:
It takes more forethought and logi support to make the Hulk shine, but I can verify that even for a dual-boxer a Hulk provides a better ISK/hr return than a Mack does if you plan your op right.


Absolutely. Although I'm using a covetor rather than a hulk (although with the current price drop I might take the risk and buy a hulk) dual-boxing with an iteron mk5 for hauling gives me a significant increase compared to a retriever. But I'm only mining casually so I don't have personal experience on the differences when it comes to a full-blown mining op.
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#308 - 2012-08-16 18:01:46 UTC
Idris Helion wrote:


It's still pretty early to be making a statement like that.

Hisec miners, being a lazy bunch (and I include myself in that list), simply replaced Hulks with Macks in a 1-for-1 exchange. In some cases (solo mining or dual-boxing with an alt) this might make sense. It takes more forethought and logi support to make the Hulk shine, but I can verify that even for a dual-boxer a Hulk provides a better ISK/hr return than a Mack does if you plan your op right.

The Covetor/Hulk is meant for fleet ops. Hisec miners don't generally participate in big mining fleets -- though they should, at least once in a while -- but lots of people in 0.0 do, and I expect that's where the new Hulk will really come into its own.

"Appealing" is in the eye of the beholder (or the Retriever, you might say).


There are plenty of orcas in the ice belts and no accompanying hulks. So I feel comfortable saying that it does not seem to have an appealing role. It CAN provide better ISK, but apparently not enough to appeal to anyone to fly one.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#309 - 2012-08-16 18:05:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Tippia wrote:
Good thing, then, that I'm not doing that.


For me you are.



Tippia wrote:
…and no ship is. Fancy that. Tiercide = every ship has its specific role rather than just be +1 to the previous model. The role of the Hulk is one that does not correspond to how your average highsec miner goes about his business. It still performs to spec and its purpose is well served by its design.


We'll see when some offical CCP statistics will come up.
As of now the only "spec and purpose" which its design well serves is to be the mainstay 0.0 large RMT blueball botter operation. Secluded in their dead end system grinding top ISK per hour.



Tippia wrote:
Tier 3 BCs have this thing: they effing shine at their purpose.
…as do Hulks, and using very similar trade-offs. The Tier-3s are much stronger given the right circumstances but are a fair bit weaker at all times. This is much the same as the relationship you're complaining about for Hulks, only the ratios are switched around.[/quote]

I don't see any trade off in a BC meant to blow stuff and die fast. The trade offs (low tank, low tracking) are irrelevant, since concord is not tankable anyway and the targets have massive signatures.

Hulks on the other side have meaningful game play affecting trade offs.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#310 - 2012-08-16 18:06:06 UTC
Sarton Wells wrote:
Idris Helion wrote:
It takes more forethought and logi support to make the Hulk shine, but I can verify that even for a dual-boxer a Hulk provides a better ISK/hr return than a Mack does if you plan your op right.


Absolutely. Although I'm using a covetor rather than a hulk (although with the current price drop I might take the risk and buy a hulk) dual-boxing with an iteron mk5 for hauling gives me a significant increase compared to a retriever. But I'm only mining casually so I don't have personal experience on the differences when it comes to a full-blown mining op.


You are the best ganker friend. When they see some white fly Hulk in a belt they know where to go next.

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Idris Helion
Doomheim
#311 - 2012-08-16 18:07:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Idris Helion
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
Idris Helion wrote:


It's still pretty early to be making a statement like that.

Hisec miners, being a lazy bunch (and I include myself in that list), simply replaced Hulks with Macks in a 1-for-1 exchange. In some cases (solo mining or dual-boxing with an alt) this might make sense. It takes more forethought and logi support to make the Hulk shine, but I can verify that even for a dual-boxer a Hulk provides a better ISK/hr return than a Mack does if you plan your op right.

The Covetor/Hulk is meant for fleet ops. Hisec miners don't generally participate in big mining fleets -- though they should, at least once in a while -- but lots of people in 0.0 do, and I expect that's where the new Hulk will really come into its own.

"Appealing" is in the eye of the beholder (or the Retriever, you might say).


There are plenty of orcas in the ice belts and no accompanying hulks. So I feel comfortable saying that it does not seem to have an appealing role. It CAN provide better ISK, but apparently not enough to appeal to anyone to fly one.


Hey, lazy miners have been a fixture in EVE since Day 1. Like I said: it's a career that rewards the ability to do math, but seems to draw people who have no ability to do math. If you can't be bothered to pick up all that ISK you're leaving on the table by using an inefficient approach, I'm not going to feel much pity for the "Hulk nerf" whining.
Sarton Wells
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#312 - 2012-08-16 18:11:49 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Sarton Wells wrote:
Idris Helion wrote:
It takes more forethought and logi support to make the Hulk shine, but I can verify that even for a dual-boxer a Hulk provides a better ISK/hr return than a Mack does if you plan your op right.


Absolutely. Although I'm using a covetor rather than a hulk (although with the current price drop I might take the risk and buy a hulk) dual-boxing with an iteron mk5 for hauling gives me a significant increase compared to a retriever. But I'm only mining casually so I don't have personal experience on the differences when it comes to a full-blown mining op.


You are the best ganker friend. When they see some white fly Hulk in a belt they know where to go next.


Never said I was mining in a belt :P
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#313 - 2012-08-16 18:15:52 UTC
Sarton Wells wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Sarton Wells wrote:
Idris Helion wrote:
It takes more forethought and logi support to make the Hulk shine, but I can verify that even for a dual-boxer a Hulk provides a better ISK/hr return than a Mack does if you plan your op right.


Absolutely. Although I'm using a covetor rather than a hulk (although with the current price drop I might take the risk and buy a hulk) dual-boxing with an iteron mk5 for hauling gives me a significant increase compared to a retriever. But I'm only mining casually so I don't have personal experience on the differences when it comes to a full-blown mining op.


You are the best ganker friend. When they see some white fly Hulk in a belt they know where to go next.


Never said I was mining in a belt :P


Good.

I have extensively tested the Hulk in missions too, but besides a minority where roids are all cluster together, the travel times and the small-ish size of the roids both nullify the Hulk yield advantage and make crystals wear down quicker (3 instead of 2) than using another ship.

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Sarton Wells
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#314 - 2012-08-16 18:22:48 UTC
Actually all missions that are worth mining have roids spread like a belt. So you'll always have a roid in range and by the time the cycle finishes you'll be near it and have the next roid in range. The cargo hold of the mackinaw/retriever though is worthless since you're pretty much obligated to jetcan because of the usually long distances between the roids and the entry point. Which is why I'm using a noctis to gather the jetcans and the iteron to haul the ore. Otherwise it would take ages to get back to the roids with the barge/exhumer.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#315 - 2012-08-16 18:34:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Sarton Wells wrote:
Actually all missions that are worth mining have roids spread like a belt. So you'll always have a roid in range and by the time the cycle finishes you'll be near it and have the next roid in range. The cargo hold of the mackinaw/retriever though is worthless since you're pretty much obligated to jetcan because of the usually long distances between the roids and the entry point. Which is why I'm using a noctis to gather the jetcans and the iteron to haul the ore. Otherwise it would take ages to get back to the roids with the barge/exhumer.


With a Mack you can do multiple roids. With some good play you can make so that when it's almost full it's also at the closest distance to the hauler (which in my case is an Orca). With other mining ships instead, you have to litter the pocket with cans and you cannot time the cans to appear closest to the tractor + hauler.
This becomes expecially important in case you get ninjas in the mission. Flipping a ship able to keep the minerals inside for 20 minutes is totally more boring and harder than one that needs to expel cans every 2 cycles.

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Sarton Wells
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#316 - 2012-08-16 18:46:23 UTC
You're only limited by the range of the miners. With the hulk you can do three roids at the same time (if there are three in range) while with the mack you can do two. Which alleviates the problem of the roids being smaller size and wasting cycles. The only time the mackinaw would be better suited is if there are always exactly two roids in range. And the pocket being full of cans isn't much of a bother. For a 2 hour mining session it takes me 5-6 minutes to gather and haul all the cans. True it would be bad if a player enters the mission site but in that case you'll have to abandon the mission anyway.
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#317 - 2012-08-16 18:51:13 UTC
Sarton Wells wrote:
Actually all missions that are worth mining have roids spread like a belt. So you'll always have a roid in range and by the time the cycle finishes you'll be near it and have the next roid in range. The cargo hold of the mackinaw/retriever though is worthless since you're pretty much obligated to jetcan because of the usually long distances between the roids and the entry point. Which is why I'm using a noctis to gather the jetcans and the iteron to haul the ore. Otherwise it would take ages to get back to the roids with the barge/exhumer.


An Orca's tractor beam is a great help if you have to scatter a lot of jetcans through a belt. Yes, you have to keep your Orca positioned close enough to tractor the cans in, but unless you're in a really spread-out belt, that's not too hard to do. (Actually, the same thing goes for haulers -- all my haulers mount a tractor in the high so I don't have to run around as much.)
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#318 - 2012-08-16 18:52:51 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Sarton Wells wrote:
Actually all missions that are worth mining have roids spread like a belt. So you'll always have a roid in range and by the time the cycle finishes you'll be near it and have the next roid in range. The cargo hold of the mackinaw/retriever though is worthless since you're pretty much obligated to jetcan because of the usually long distances between the roids and the entry point. Which is why I'm using a noctis to gather the jetcans and the iteron to haul the ore. Otherwise it would take ages to get back to the roids with the barge/exhumer.


With a Mack you can do multiple roids. With some good play you can make so that when it's almost full it's also at the closest distance to the hauler (which in my case is an Orca). With other mining ships instead, you have to litter the pocket with cans and you cannot time the cans to appear closest to the tractor + hauler.
This becomes expecially important in case you get ninjas in the mission. Flipping a ship able to keep the minerals inside for 20 minutes is totally more boring and harder than one that needs to expel cans every 2 cycles.


Ninjas in the mission? *sigh*

I don't get ninjas. I get combat scanner probes on my d-scan.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#319 - 2012-08-16 18:57:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
Lame and somewhat inacurrate title. The Mack actually does not mine as fast for ice as it used to. The Hulk still out performs the mack based on yield. The size of the Mack ore hold makes it nice for solo mining; it's not invinicible the tank is still within reach of many ganks.. and what's more, miners still don't tank like survival is job one....

I find the Mack nice.. but not royal.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Idris Helion
Doomheim
#320 - 2012-08-16 19:13:02 UTC
Barbara Nichole wrote:
Lame and somewhat inacurrate title. The Mack actually does not mine as fast for ice as it used to. The Hulk still out performs the mack based on yield. The size of the Mack ore hold makes it nice for solo mining; it's not invinicible the tank is still within reach of many ganks.. and what's more, miners still don't tank like survival is job one....

I find the Mack nice.. but not royal.


Yup. Pretty soon the gankers are going to come up with a loadout that kills paper-tanked Macks the way they used to take out paper-tanked Hulks, and that'll be the end of the love-affair with the Mack for a lot of people.

More tank, less gank, kids.