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Off grid boosting alts trying to evade the nerfbat

Author
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#101 - 2012-08-16 12:05:53 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Roime wrote:


How is it common sense? I haven't seen a single reason why links should be on grid. What about covops scout, why are they allowed to give warpins to fleet and not be on grid?


If you can understand why off grid ewar and off grid logistics are ridiculous and wrong then you can understand why off grid boosting is ridiculous and wrong.

Of course, this is not a question of intelligence but of emotional attachment and there are none so blind as those who don't want to see.


if you wan't off grid boosting removed.... and if they are really going to do it... it should be removed completly! otherwise it would give larger gangs an even larger advantage over smaller gangs besides the numbers game...

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#102 - 2012-08-16 12:09:27 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Roime wrote:


How is it common sense? I haven't seen a single reason why links should be on grid. What about covops scout, why are they allowed to give warpins to fleet and not be on grid?


If you can understand why off grid ewar and off grid logistics are ridiculous and wrong then you can understand why off grid boosting is ridiculous and wrong.

Of course, this is not a question of intelligence but of emotional attachment and there are none so blind as those who don't want to see.


EWAR consists of offensive actions against targeted opponents, and the modules all have effective range. Same mechanics apply to remote reppers and transporters, only that you normally use these modules on your own buddies :)

Do you think system-wide leadership bonuses (those from the leadership skills, without any links) are also ridiculous and wrong?

But I ask again, is having a cloaked scout also wrong? It provides way more tangible benefits, and is completely indestructible?

.

Khavaltre
N.D.A. Inc.
#103 - 2012-08-16 12:14:07 UTC
The answer of course is more modules.

Add some new fancy EWAR command link disruption. If people want to make the choice to bring OGB to the system, then you can make the choice to bring disruption and deny them their bonus. Or don't, and deal with the possibility of harder to kill ships.

Seems like a good solution to both sides, of 'oh I need my OGB to be competitive' or the 'OGB should be forbidden'. Make it a choice both sides get to consent to when engaging. Same choice as jamming basically, after all, only in Iceland is not playing the game a game mechanic.

Take it a step further and maybe make the command link disruption less effective if command links are on-grid.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#104 - 2012-08-16 12:23:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Khavaltre wrote:
The answer of course is more modules.

Add some new fancy EWAR command link disruption. If people want to make the choice to bring OGB to the system, then you can make the choice to bring disruption and deny them their bonus. Or don't, and deal with the possibility of harder to kill ships.


At that point it would be better to remove gang links alltogether and refund the SP.

Quote:
Take it a step further and maybe make the command link disruption less effective if command links are on-grid.


No that's just a compromise along the lines of "just a little off grid remote repping would be OK" and "neutral RR is OK as long as you don't use more than 1 or 2 reps".
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#105 - 2012-08-16 12:24:11 UTC
I'm fine with removing off grid boosting so long as they balance boosting t3s/commandships in the process

oh whats that, the latter wont happen?

didnt think so
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#106 - 2012-08-16 12:29:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Sheynan
All boosting ships were designed with on-grid boosting in mind, remove offgrid-boosting and you suddenly fix alot of problems, make boosting much more interesting, get dozens of combat pilots to train leadership and let fleets make some sensible decisions about boosts instead of just everyone tugging his cloaky booster behind him everywhere he goes.

That being said, Eos and Vulture could use some tweaks, but not T3 commands imo.








P.S: And I'm so tired of this "favors blobs" statement, it's simply not true. Off-grid boosts are not helping you fight outnumbered, they are just a convenient way to multibox some more pilots that you are too elite to openly show on the field.
The only moment where your OGB helps you fight a larger blob is when you have a booster because you like to powercreep your way to victory and your enemies somehow don't have one yet, because they lack skills or money. Which means you are fighting a group of noobtards that you should win against anyway, with or without booster.

But in a standard fight both sides will have their booster alt, and with the change both sides will have to devote one pilot to bringing the boosts on grid. So nothing changes.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#107 - 2012-08-16 12:33:57 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
I'm fine with removing off grid boosting so long as they balance boosting t3s/commandships in the process

oh whats that, the latter wont happen?

didnt think so



Most people who don't want this change to happen are assuming gang links and boosting will still be the same as it is now but on grid witch is a bad assumption based on whatever intergalactic arse fart.
It's quite obvious boosting mechanic and ships for such role need a full change to cover all aspects of the game from small gang to large fleets, that's why this change didn't hit yet because it would be easy to simply code so boosting wouldn't be system wide.

Waiting the Dev blog about this to actually read first what's the main goal from CCP point of view on how this should work and what changes are intended to hit TQ, only then we can really have a serious discussion. I'm against the fact small gangs will get hit harder than large fleets, this is no good for the game, however off grid boosting SHOULD SIMPLY NOT EXIST.
Battlecruisers can fit gang links but how many of those do you see fitted with? -mechanic and ships related need changes.

brb

Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#108 - 2012-08-16 12:38:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
I'm against the fact small gangs will get hit harder than large fleets, this is no good for the game


As I've said many times, it will also let small gangs or solo players that had no access to OGB fight similarly sized gangs or other solo players that were previously impossible to take on due to having OGB.

So this is just as much an argument for the removal of OGB as it as an argument against the removal.
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#109 - 2012-08-16 12:41:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Sheynan
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:

Battlecruisers can fit gang links but how many of those do you see fitted with? -mechanic and ships related need changes.



Battlecruisers or other unbonused booster ships don't fit links because it is much more convenient to have your 95% risk-free off-grid-booster sitting somewhere with much larger boosts whenever you need them.

Take off-grid-boosting away and people will fit boosts on unbonused hulls again.
(Atleast hopefully Smile)
Khavaltre
N.D.A. Inc.
#110 - 2012-08-16 12:42:18 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
At that point it would be better to remove gang links alltogether and refund the SP.


That's like saying, tracking disruption makes it pointless to have gunnery skills so turrets should be removed and SP refunded, which is ridiculous. If people want to invest the time to train up to have a bunch of SP in gang links, give people the 100,000 isk solution of 'screw your bonus'. Same scenario applies to training up to have a bunch of SP in anything then have someone come along with any of the other EWAR to deny you your advantages from your training.

Takeshi Yamato wrote:
No that's just a compromise along the lines of "just a little off grid remote repping would be OK" and "neutral RR is OK as long as you don't use more than 1 or 2 reps".


Not even close to the same thing.
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#111 - 2012-08-16 12:53:42 UTC
feihcsiM wrote:
I fully support this initiative to have rorquals sat on-grid in belts with mining ships. Big smile


Not only are they on-grid, they are also deployed, and so are going nowhere for the next, oh, about 10 minutes or so.

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.

Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#112 - 2012-08-16 12:56:15 UTC
Before Rorquals, people just used a battlecruiser to run mining links. If they don't want to put a Rorqual on grid, they'll have to go back to that.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#113 - 2012-08-16 12:59:58 UTC
Desert Ice78 wrote:
feihcsiM wrote:
I fully support this initiative to have rorquals sat on-grid in belts with mining ships. Big smile


Not only are they on-grid, they are also deployed, and so are going nowhere for the next, oh, about 10 minutes or so.


Mining Command ships and mining links it's another discussion in OGB discussion, keeping them system wide only for mining links it's not a problem for the game at all, offensive/defensive links are.

brb

Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#114 - 2012-08-16 13:13:43 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Desert Ice78 wrote:
feihcsiM wrote:
I fully support this initiative to have rorquals sat on-grid in belts with mining ships. Big smile


Not only are they on-grid, they are also deployed, and so are going nowhere for the next, oh, about 10 minutes or so.


Mining Command ships and mining links it's another discussion in OGB discussion, keeping them system wide only for mining links it's not a problem for the game at all, offensive/defensive links are.


Well that would be another Kowtow of CCP to PvR faction (Player versus Roids...you get the idea)...and just unfair.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP

Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#115 - 2012-08-16 13:15:13 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Desert Ice78 wrote:
feihcsiM wrote:
I fully support this initiative to have rorquals sat on-grid in belts with mining ships. Big smile


Not only are they on-grid, they are also deployed, and so are going nowhere for the next, oh, about 10 minutes or so.


Mining Command ships and mining links it's another discussion in OGB discussion, keeping them system wide only for mining links it's not a problem for the game at all, offensive/defensive links are.


I would find that acceptable, but I have not seen any official word indicating that intent from CCP. Can anyone help?

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.

Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#116 - 2012-08-16 14:04:31 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
I'm against the fact small gangs will get hit harder than large fleets, this is no good for the game


As I've said many times, it will also let small gangs or solo players that had no access to OGB fight similarly sized gangs or other solo players that were previously impossible to take on due to having OGB.

So this is just as much an argument for the removal of OGB as it as an argument against the removal.


There are no small gangs or solo players without access to OGB.

That's the fault in your line of thinking.

.

Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#117 - 2012-08-16 14:05:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Roime wrote:


There are no small gangs or solo players without access to OGB.

That's the fault in your line of thinking.



I've heard this before:

Falcons jamming from 200 km are balanced because you can just bring your own Falcon alt. Lol

Remote doomsday is balanced because you can just bring your own remote doomsday.

Neutral RR is balanced because you can just bring your own neutral RR.

etc...
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#118 - 2012-08-16 14:11:30 UTC
Falcon is the Caldari recon ship, specializing in Electronic Counter Measures, a powerful type of electronic warfare. Maybe you are confused about what gang links are?

Just to clear it for you: Warfare Links are not EWAR or RR.


.

Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#119 - 2012-08-16 14:43:24 UTC
So because there is almost no downside to having an OGB, at some point in near future everyone will have one.
So why don't we just remove boosting altogether and just increase all stats for the missing amount...


Boosting from an off-grid spot is just too much of a no-brainer to be kept in the game.



And...
Roime wrote:
Falcon is the Caldari recon ship, specializing in Electronic Counter Measures, a powerful type of electronic warfare. Maybe you are confused about what gang links are?

It's a "powerful type of electronic warfare" but even ECM was nerfed severely in its range to bring the Falcon much closer to the fight.
Quote:

Just to clear it for you: Warfare Links are not EWAR or RR.


But they fill the same purpose of being a force multiplier that is not a direct damage dealing ship and as such there is no reason to treat them any different when it comes to changing them.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#120 - 2012-08-16 14:45:59 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
[quote=Roime] The Falcon alt apologists used the exact same justification too "we need it to fight the blob!".


Bullshit. ECM is near worthless vs blobs, which is why its such a ****** mechanic.