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[Winter] More Combat Frigates!

First post First post
Author
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#21 - 2012-08-16 12:11:55 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Bubanni wrote:
CCP Fozzie, can you guys also please look at other frigates for winter? (i'm thinking the interceptors as I feel the other t2 frigs seem fairly balanced at the moment, sb being weak against other frigs, and good chance of being popped fast by a bc or cruiser, and assault frigs being quite nice at the moment where they can even take on battlecruisers and win)

So yes... please look at the interceptors? I am saying this because it would suck if that took an additional half year after all other frigs had been balanced


Don't think ceptors will be able to make it into Winter, but we'll get a look at them as soon as we can.


Understandable :) I love that you guys are working on this though,

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Lyrrashae
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2012-08-16 12:11:57 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
[...]

Kestrel:
Frigate skill bonuses:
5% Bonus to Missile damage per level
10% Bonus to Missile velocity per level

Slot layout: 4 H, 4 M (+1), 2 L, 4 launchers
Fittings: 45 PWG (+15), 180 CPU (+30)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 500(+109) / 350(+37) / 350 (+84)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 330 (+80)/ 165s (-22.5s)/ 2 (+0.667)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 320 (+24) / 3.27(-0.6) / 1163000 / 3.56s (-0.65)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 50km (+10) / 620 (+155) / 5 (+2)
Sensor strength: 11 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 38 (-9)
Cargo capacity: 160 (-145)

[...]




Miniature HM/Nano-Drake, I can haz!

Yaaay'z!!

Ni.

Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-08-16 12:21:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Tristan:
Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% Bonus to Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level
10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level

Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 (+20) / 40 (+35)


Sigh, more of the same, again? Split weapon system, drones and turrets. If you are going to make a drone boat, make it a DRONE boat! No guns, just drones, with bonuses and bay to match. We already have plenty of turret ships with drones. This is just more of the same, with slightly more (1) drones.


Love the drone tracking speed bonus though. That's new and exciting. And HP bonus is great, though truth be told I would like to see a 20% HP boost per level, not 10%. At 10% drones still die too easy, and they're too important on this ship, especially if you're not going to give us the bandwidth to carry more than 1 full flight.

Which brings me to my last point, once again, 25 bandwidth, 40 bay? Why not 50 bay? Give us 2 full flights if we have to warp out in a jiffy and can't wait for drones. Which happens OFTEN. Very, very, very, very, very...[infinity]...very, very often. Would it really be so horrific if we had backups? How does this unbalance the ship? Aside from perhaps adding a smidgeon of flexibility? Besides, all this comes at a cost - if ship is destroyed with 2 flights of drones, it'll cost me more than 1.6 flights. Risk vs reward, flexibility for more ISK. What's the problem?

I say this from a loving place, but perhaps it's time to break the (broken) old mechanic of split weapon systems and weak drone bays and bonuses for drone boats. Drone boats should be drone boats, not 50% turret and 50% drones. We already have tons of ships with 70% whatever and 30% drones or less. Not much of a difference there.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
We didn't like giving Gallente a missile bonused t1 frigate and then leaving them with a stealth bomber (for which skills in rockets and light missiles actually have 0 impact) as the only possible upgrade.


Which makes a bomber the "entry level" Gallente missile boat? A little expensive, don't you think. At least if Tristan had missiles, by the time the player got to bombers, he'd have missile support skills (projection, payload, etc.), even if rockets/lights are useless.

Also don't forget Gila and Rattlesnake. A lot of Gallente pilots with drone skills will fly those. I did. Cross-trained Caldari specifically for those two hulls. And again, while rocket/lights are useless for those, all the missile support skills would be useful.

I just dislike the idea of the Gallente pilot's first and only taste of missiles coming from the rookie boat (bonuses on which are static, and which most players will leave behind within their first hour), and then only revisiting them with T2 bomber or a faction cruiser. Tristan would provide a nice middle ground for that.

You guys really need to make up your mind on what you want to do. If you want to keep Gallente in hybrids/drones with armor tank, then do it. You'll have to redesign the Nemesis away from missiles, but that's pretty much it. But if you want to have Gallente train ALL of the missile skills for basically just 1 ship (not counting Gila/Rattlesnake), then perhaps there should be other ships as well, and a frigate makes an awful lot of sense.
Martin0
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-08-16 12:50:26 UTC
[quote=CCP Fozzie]Tristan:
Frigate skill bonuses:
7.5% Bonus to Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level
10% Bonus to Drone tracking speed and hitpoints per level

Slot layout: 3 H (-1), 3 M, 3 L, 2 turrets, 0 launchers (-2)
Fittings: 35 PWG (-3), 130 CPU (+5)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350(-41) / 450(+20) / 550 (+167)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 350 / 175s (-59.38s)/ 2 (+0.5)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 (+4) / 3.44 (-0.21) / 1106000 (+100000) / 3.56s (-0.02)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 (+20) / 40 (+35)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 40km (+12.5) / 600 (+10) / 5
Sensor strength: 9 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 41 (-1)
Cargo capacity: 140
/quote]

Thank you very much for not making the tristan a missile boat. Lol
I'll start buying some now :D
Aurum Gallente
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-08-16 12:53:35 UTC
I'm happy to see tristan like this but 3 med+2 light drones or one sentry in frigate class? It can kill any T1 cruiser or tier-3 BC. If you want to see powerful drone platform just change turret bonus to something useful like drone HP or stasis webifier range or armor resistances. I prefer 0 turrents and long webifier
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#26 - 2012-08-16 12:56:06 UTC
Aurum Gallente wrote:
I'm happy to see tristan like this but 3 med+2 light drones or one sentry in frigate class? It can kill any T1 cruiser or tier-3 BC. If you want to see powerful drone platform just change turret bonus to something useful like drone HP or stasis webifier range or armor resistances. I prefer 0 turrents and long webifier


It has 40m3 bay but only 25m3 bandwidth, so 5 light drones or one sentry.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Kethry Avenger
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2012-08-16 12:57:59 UTC
So shouldn't the Inquisitor be in with this group? Or are you just having the Tormentor with this group, and will just switch the Inquisitor into the next group? Which is fine.

The Tristan seems like it has one less slot than the rest of the ships in this group 9 instead of 10. Is that because it has so many more drones?

If the Tormentor is going to be the Frigate of this group can we get a range bonus instead of the cap use bonus or a bigger drone bay?

And can anybody please answer the question of the Amarr cap use bonus? There have been lots of people asking questions and few threads also.

Well thanks for your time.
Spugg Galdon
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#28 - 2012-08-16 12:59:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
I think Jame Jarl Retief and I are on the same page.

Another argument against a missile frigate being useless for Gallente is that progressing from a missile frigate in all the races to a stealth bomber is EXACTLY the same jump.

The other T1 missile frigates don't use torpedoes so they still have to train rockets/lights for the frigates and torps for the bombers.

Jame Jarl Retief also made a spot on point about the Velator getting a missile bonus but there being no progression from that. [Edit] Actually does it? Not sure anymore [Edit 2] No bonus but it does get missile slots so there is still room for progression

Long stroy short, Make this hull the Navitas or switch the tracking bonus for a missile explosion velocity and give it two launchers. The Worm will cry if you do that though so I would say make the Tristan a missile boat with no drones and the Navitas what you have just proposed
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
Parasitic Legion.
#29 - 2012-08-16 13:08:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Making the Tristan a missile ship also would lessen the sidestep toward the worm, it uses rockets or light missiles. So it would not be wasted SP to train them
Edit: Also I really would like to see the Navitas as a drone ship as well. It would look much better then the Tristan, look at the style of the Vexor, Myrmidon, and the Dominix, the Tristan would only be an eye sore in the drone boat line.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#30 - 2012-08-16 13:13:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
velator has no missile bonus but a launcher slot.. but more interestingly does this mean the navitas is going to be a face melting blaster boat? like a t1 enyo and the tristan looks like a t1 ishkur also the prob with drone frig without guns the drones just get killed and its then defenceless so i expect the destroyer drone boats will also be mix turret bonus and for christ sake if you want missiles use caldari also i agree with the drone bay ratio being at least 2.1 especially in frigs drones are so killable especially lights and in terms of a sentry drone well if you have to leave it to warp/jump then you have no more sentries only a few lights in bay

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

The VC's
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-08-16 13:15:41 UTC
@ CCP Fozzie


Could you tell us your thinking behind the Tristan only having 9 slots compared to the others 10?




Not that I want a MSE II double DDA II kite b@stard or anything.
Deena Amaj
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2012-08-16 13:20:39 UTC
Looks mostly solid to me.

Tristan is more a "Fat man" now :).

Although I wish the 10% explosion dmg on Breacher would have stayed, it is just fine as it is now and it can sting stuff.


I wish Tristan had an Assault Frigate variant... Shocked

confirthisposmed

I'm probably typing on a Tablet too, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them.

DenadanA
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2012-08-16 13:26:34 UTC
How about amarr drone frigate?
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2012-08-16 13:28:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
CCP Fozzie

Is there any chance that the -10% laser cap usage bonus will be looked at while you're rebalancing T1 ships? It's something that you guys probably want to address sooner or later, and in this case, sooner would save you some work.

There are about 20 ships with this bonus and many of the T1 ships with it are just not competitive due to it. I've written some of my thoughts about it here. If you want to look at it, seeing the affected ships in a list makes you realize how far reaching this issue is.


I also want to mention that I'd really like the Inquisitor to be a Khanid ship (rocket damage bonus, armor resist bonus).
Keras Authion
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-08-16 13:41:57 UTC
I'm liking the changes for the most part.

Kestrel has finally the grid to fit light launchers without a mapc and the other additions should make it a great mission boat, a kiter or a tanky rocket boat. With the light missile buff it should be a very competetive ship. The cargobay decrease will lose the ability to be a low-level hauler but the exploration frigates should pick up that role even better.

Tristan has the full flight of lights but the split weapon bonus isn't usually something that could be called good. It looks like it's supposed to stay at range and support the drone dps with rails. It gets about 120 dps with warrior IIs and 125mms, which is still more than the kestrel's 90-ish or whatever it will be after the patch without damage mods on either so I suppose there is some reasoning done there. However the ship will be more expensive to fit with tech 2 drones than the rest.

The breacher is a... tanky rocket boat with some drones? Is the shield supposed to be as strong as the caldari shield? It makes sense but it might be good to ask if it's intentional since most of the other changes have shown that minmatar has a lower shield amount and the rest of the stats follow the usual layout. Other than that I can't really think of about this ship.

This post was rated "C" for capsuleer.

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#36 - 2012-08-16 13:58:55 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
CCP Fozzie

Is there any chance that the -10% laser cap usage bonus will be looked at while you're rebalancing T1 ships? It's something that you guys probably want to address sooner or later, and in this case, sooner would save you some work.


Its a perfectly good bonus. Particularly on hulls that cant really fit a cap booster.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
#37 - 2012-08-16 14:07:51 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Like I said, some plans have changed in the past few months. The Navitas will be in the last set of frigates we reveal, but it's no longer planned as a drone damage frigate.

I'm looking forward to that last reveal most of all. Running the latest design past the CSM now, will get it to you asap.


NOOOOOOO! I wanted the Tristan as a missile boat and the Navitas as a Drone boat. Please reconsider. This is worth protesting over.

Also I am sicking the CSM on you:

https://twitter.com/aideronrobotics/status/236100917680803841
https://twitter.com/aideronrobotics/status/236101435492802560
https://twitter.com/aideronrobotics/status/236100917680803841
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
#38 - 2012-08-16 14:10:05 UTC
Now I am getting the people that brought the frill back to help:

https://twitter.com/aideronrobotics/status/236102442129960960
Marian Devers
Rage and Terror
Against ALL Authorities
#39 - 2012-08-16 14:12:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Marian Devers
Edit: didn't read carefully enough, sorry.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
Parasitic Legion.
#40 - 2012-08-16 14:13:49 UTC
Missiles aside, does the navitas not look like it should be a drone ship?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.