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Why no support for solo PvE players?

First post
Author
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#161 - 2012-08-16 12:33:07 UTC
I think the first sign what CCP thought of this idea is when they actually moved a thread TO General Discussion.
Roime
Shiva Furnace
#162 - 2012-08-16 12:33:57 UTC
:DDD

.

Dennis Gregs
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#163 - 2012-08-16 12:34:10 UTC
Pip Mayo wrote:
Dennis Gregs wrote:
I enjoy the PVE in EVE, and the fact that you're never safe makes it more enjoyable.

If you don't like the game please don't try to ruin it for the rest of us, total carebearness with zero consequences should never be allowed in this game.

Not ruining anything. Just discussing it. If anything, the aggressiveness of other players has ruined the game for me. No one is changing the game on you.


You're not ruining it, but you're trying really hard. This is not even a stealth QQ thread, it's an obvious one.
Sejania Tor
Dog Nation
#164 - 2012-08-16 12:56:26 UTC
Andski wrote:
Anslo wrote:
The reason I make the commentary I do about banning PvP is to point out just how damn polarized the community is.


Yeah but when you were doing that gimmick (ugh, how I fell for that troll) you were pretending to advocate a position that only a very tiny minority of people support. The extent of nonconsensual PvP that should be allowed in hisec is genuinely debatable, but banning PvP outright is something even the most carebeariest types wouldn't support.






Most definitely agree......I'm a miner and I'd be pissed if they ever got rid of suicide ganking as it is. If they made it so miners would be always protected from everything except rats the market would crash completely. I'd be first to cancel if they did something so inane.
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#165 - 2012-08-16 12:57:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Kryss Darkdust
Dennis Gregs wrote:
Pip Mayo wrote:
Dennis Gregs wrote:
I enjoy the PVE in EVE, and the fact that you're never safe makes it more enjoyable.

If you don't like the game please don't try to ruin it for the rest of us, total carebearness with zero consequences should never be allowed in this game.

Not ruining anything. Just discussing it. If anything, the aggressiveness of other players has ruined the game for me. No one is changing the game on you.


You're not ruining it, but you're trying really hard. This is not even a stealth QQ thread, it's an obvious one.


I didn't read any real malice in the OPS post, its simply an uninformed opinion of a new player without a clue. Thats quite common in Eve. The problem is that two months from now, unless he adapts, he will either quit the game, or join the endless stream of people who bring their tears to the forum over some random event involving the destruction of one of their ships. Hence, its quite smart to "discuss" the matter at this stage in his Eve life before he takes one of the two eventual steps, rather than the 3rd step which is adapting, absorbing and becoming part of Eve, rather than one of its endless victims.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 

Sejania Tor
Dog Nation
#166 - 2012-08-16 13:04:14 UTC
James 315 wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:

Which of those 5 allow you to do anything without competing with other players?

Missions - Each LP or ISK you earn reduces the value of everyone else's LP/ISK
Mining - Each rock you mine is unavailable to other miners, and each mineral you mine reduces the value of everyone else's minerals.
Exploration - Competition for Sites, and Loot you pick up reduces the value of everyone else's loot.
Wormholes - The above + Shooting each other
Industry - Market Competition.

Every single one puts you in direct competition with other players.

There's an argument to be made there, but I wonder how many highsec PvE players recognize that their actions affect others.




Not enough......some of the simplest people that push straight into mining barges etc. just so they can mine don't quite realize I think what effect the ores and minerals they sell has on the market. I imagine quite a few think there is an npc that buys all that up when they right click and hit sell. Any mining I do is for personal/corp use only. And thats all the low end stuff. Veldspar etc. I buy all my zydrine, mega and morphite off the market.
Pierre Echerie
Horseshoe Industries
#167 - 2012-08-16 13:10:58 UTC
Well, since we go about definitions, let's recall what CCP says orignally about this game (CBA to actually quote).

They call it a 'sandbox environment'. Key word - environment.

PVE and PVP are defined as activities, I think most of us including the OP would agree.

So, essentially, it's a game that has both PVP activities available, i.e. shoot the bejesus out of other players, scam them, out-trade, out-mine, out-smart them, log in first after the restart to get that anom, nom nom :)... all that stuff, and...

... PVE activities, like missioning, ratting, etc. Problem is, as someone pointed it out, even if you do PVE, you still affect the environment, which is kind of shared between you and those other nameless thousands of eve players, so you do affect them, even if indirectly. Then again, show me a truly totally absolutely PVE game which still enables player interaction*.

And the environment is defined as sandbox, which means, anyone can do anything they want, to anything or anyone within it. All these points together ought to be pretty self-explanatory.


* Now about some other MMO's people may perceive as PVE games.

Lineage 2 - THE PVP GAME, in fact, at least before the introduction of Kamael chronicles. You walk out of town, anyone can PK you just 'cause they had a bad day.

RIFT? Yes, there's a pve server... still doesn't prevent people from killing your mobs, though. Besides, it all ultimately boils down to getting your char to the top, dressing up, then doing arenas. Reminds something, doesn't it? Lol

Aion... sweet looking title. Except it is boring as hell, because PVP there is not meaningful, not any more.

World of tanks? Roxx, to be sure. But you can argue that by pressing that big red button you consent to be shot at. Well, in eve you do the same by undocking.

SW:TOR and the like... heck, never tried, must be because I'm not into games where everyone is grinding chars for the sake of grinding.

The problem with most such games is that, in a totally controlled, safe environment, progress is constant and guaranteed, even if it's speed is not. At a certain time everyone gets to a point that they literally have the same, best, tried, standard equip/skills/build. Then they got nothing more to do and quickly become bored (and leave if nothing gets done).

Then the company that makes that game has to add new 'chronicles' with more stuff to get and more levels to grind, devaluating all the player has achieved till that poind. And just so that new players had a chance to catch up, all the previous content is made easier, and 'progress' gets devaluated even more.. Rinse, repeat.

At some point, one just gets fed up with having to constantly catch up just to stay on top, knowing that all he does uncountable times plowing through the same mindless dungeon, is not in any way giving him any 'real progress', so, again, he leaves.

Ofc, expecting 'progress' in an MMO of that kind is stupid anyway, it's a game. Better Play DnD then (or something like EvE), where the real product of playing is not some abstract numbers, but a story that is written in player interaction. So, even if you personally are against hurting anyone, even in a virtual world, you can take pride in being successful despite others. Think of it as running an unarmed freighter in an environment close to that of 'Firefly', but without using weapons.

/wall_of_text

Alright, enough talking, will somebody just gimme a drink!?
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#168 - 2012-08-16 13:30:01 UTC
Quote:
Not enough......some of the simplest people that push straight into mining barges etc. just so they can mine don't quite realize I think what effect the ores and minerals they sell has on the market. I imagine quite a few think there is an npc that buys all that up when they right click and hit sell. Any mining I do is for personal/corp use only. And thats all the low end stuff. Veldspar etc. I buy all my zydrine, mega and morphite off the market.




Your correct on that, but still, it is a fact that players are in competition with each other, being unaware of it just makes you really bad at it. Which again illustrates the fact that most players are very naive about what being an Eve player involves and how much control they actually have over their own existance and success in this game. This is one aspect of the game that no matter how much you try to knock into peoples heads, the large majority are simply not going to understand because the presumption is that Eve is just another MMO like any other and they try to play it as such.

If you want to know the difference between a player that gets it and one that doesn't, I can share an experiance with you that illustrates the difference.



I started out playing this game with several friends, though initially we didn't agree on what was the best way to go about playing this game. One of them insisted that the best way to earn ISK was to start mining in High Sec (because it was safe) and running missions. He spent weeks grinding, working towards his next ship, next skill book... he spend hundreds of hours trying to make a few million ISK. By the end of a month he managed close to 30 million ISK and was flying a barge class ship. One day someone can flipped him, he aggressed, got blown up and lost effectively knocked back to square one.



Me and my other friend instead formed a corp, recruited several members and started running various ops in low sec ops ranging from mining to complexes.. missions. We created a coalition of corps in one system (called Amisiree) with several other mining Corps and we defended the system from pirates very successfully (Noobs calling themselves Goonswarm). By our 3rd week our corp had over 600 million ISK in our corporate wallet as well as considerable wealth of our own. We had some PvP experiances, we had a few mishaps... but we worked as a team, got involved in politics, defended our space and generally sought opertunities that ranged from manufacuring, trade, etc... always as a team, a team that swelled to over 35 daily active players by our second month by which our original friend had long since quit the game.



The point here is that... there is a way to play Eve and there is a way people expect to play Eve. Eve IS an MMO... if your playing it solo, yeah .. you might be successful if you stick it out through the rough waters, certainly I know plenty of people that have.. but you'll never be as successful solo as you could be with a proper crew .. nore will you ever feel safe and protected without a crew.



When Im in formation with 10 of my buddies.. believe me... wether we are mining, tresspassing in wormhole space, or sneaking past low sec pirates... I always feel a hell of a lot safer with them than I do without.

Morale of the story... Get some friends.

Thats how you make Eve Safe and fun while your at it. If your grinding level 1 missions and think their is some kind of wonderful progression along the lines of solo play, trust me, there is nothing there waiting for you but an unfortunate incident from which you will not recover. Your effectively a victim, its just that you haven't aquired enough wealth and success to be victimized yet, but its coming... keep grinding... and the bad people will find you.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 

Warpshade
Warped Industries
#169 - 2012-08-16 14:00:40 UTC
Thread equals= Stop going to a Burger van to buy hotdogs.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#170 - 2012-08-16 14:47:50 UTC
If you took the PVP out of Eve, you'd have a rather boring game where you do the same few things over and over again to get isk to buy the ships you're training to fly. What makes Eve's PVE exciting is that you DO have to be on the lookout for threats, and that you're vulnerable to the actions of other players.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

Overseer Aliena
Lord of Wars
#171 - 2012-08-16 15:20:15 UTC
Pip Mayo wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Pip Mayo wrote:
Jim Era wrote:
Pip don't argue. They will eat you alive in here. You are actively partaking in forum PvP.
You seem to continue so this may be an indicator that you like it?
Possibly try looking up the diplomacy side of EVE...the politics are massive here.


I started the discourse. Only responsible to participate. I am burning out as I type, though. It should die out soon enough. I should have defined PvP vs PvE at the begining. I can see it is not as clear as I had thought it.

Thanks
PM



Because it appears that your definition is vaguely different than the communities. Btw, I couldn't help but notice that you never did say where all those evil pvp happenings actually happened. It was low sec wasn't it? You did disregard the little warning box didn't you?


Highsec space.



I don't think you are being completely honest here.
Ginger Barbarella
#172 - 2012-08-16 15:24:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Ginger Barbarella
Pip Mayo wrote:
Why is this game built on a PvP environment? There appears to be no place for PvE-only players.



Uhhh..... *looks around* Have you ever PLAYED the game?!?!?!?!

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#173 - 2012-08-16 15:44:17 UTC
Pip Mayo wrote:
The consequences, whatever they were, still did not stop my being attacked and destroyed.
They're not meant to. They're only meant to give people enough pause to occasionally not blow up everything they come across. Highsec is all about gambling on the hope that other people's miserliness will keep them form attacking you. Sometimes, that gamble will pay off; other times, it won't; and if you tip the scale so that attacking you does not cost anything, then the odds will quickly fall out of your favour…

Quote:
Thus my whole point about EVE not having any PVE environments. I get no warning when I enter highsec space.
You get a warning if you read through the new player information and tutorials, where it still states that other players can attack you at any point for no apparent reason (and that's before we even go into the “everything is PvP” argument). Indeed, this could be made a whole lot clearer, but it's there if you pay attention. At any rate, it's entirely by design and it is not something that will, or even can change without a massive reconstruction from the ground up of the entire game to the point where it is no longer EVE Online.

Quote:
The one attack, and biggest hit financially, was at a gate. I understand that was a suicide run? The others were at cosmic points. Does security enter those? Isn't there an aggression timer?
Unless you are a legit target by having committed a crime or by being at war, attacking someone in highsec means you get blown up. Period. If you don't, it's an exploit. It doesn't matter where or how — CONCORD demands their pound of flesh everywhere in highsec, be it through lost ships or through wardec fees.

Aggression timers come in a couple of varieties. First, there are the timers that determine for how long you are a legitimate target when you commit smaller offences (theft, mainly). For 15 minutes after such a crime, you are a legit target for the victim. Then there's the GCC — the global criminal countdown for large crimes (ganks) which also last for 15 minutes. During those 15 minutes, you are a free-for-all target and if players don't take you out, CONCORD will but only as long as you are in a ship. Then there are the NPC aggression timers, which are largely inconsequential other than if you **** off one of the NPC corps, in which case their stations will start shooting at you and will not stop until 15 minutes have elapsed since they last saw you. Finally, there are the docking timers, which aren't strictly speaking aggression timers but which are closely tied to them: they just say that for a period of time since you last did something offensive towards another player, you are not allowed to dock or use gates (requiring you to “deaggress” to make yourself safe).
Joe Hinken
Cetan Consortium
#174 - 2012-08-16 15:57:39 UTC
Overseer Aliena wrote:


I was going to remind everyone who's bashing him for trying to "change" EvE that this was moved from New Cit Q&A, but perhaps there was a reason for that after all.

Brick Royl > bad timing the isk is deflating fatser then a baloon in a cactus shop

Gaellia Bonaventure
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#175 - 2012-08-16 16:22:24 UTC
It's a PVP oriented game. Sure, I like PVE, but I also know this is first and foremost a PVP oriented game and I use caution accordingly when I undock. You should, too.

Yeah. Sometimes it really is that simple.

Bring your possibles.

DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#176 - 2012-08-16 16:48:18 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
ISD Etetia wrote:
Moved from New Citizens Q&A to General Discussion


WOW talking about throwing newborn Christians to the lions.
What are the odds that account will be unsubbed in the next 2 monthly cycles.
An' then [email protected], he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#177 - 2012-08-16 16:53:20 UTC
Remnant Madeveda wrote:
1/10 troll not even funny really.

Everyone that plays eve, new people, old bitter vets, and hell even the botting miners understand eve is pvp. The market is completely player run therby pvp. The missions and such are pve until another player wants to scan you down then it's pvp. All in all eve is Everyone vs Everyone.


The real troll here was ISD
An' then [email protected], he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Overseer Aliena
Lord of Wars
#178 - 2012-08-16 16:59:33 UTC
Having the title of one bad guy and the name of a supervillian, shouldn't you be cackling at the prospect of a carebear leaving with his tail between his legs rather than being a carebear about the situation yourself?
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#179 - 2012-08-16 17:28:10 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Overseer Aliena wrote:
Having the title of one bad guy and the name of a supervillian, shouldn't you be cackling at the prospect of a carebear leaving with his tail between his legs rather than being a carebear about the situation yourself?


I guess if I was true to my name instead of watching him leave with tail between legs I should suggest to the OP to go to the Goons recruiters, for a small deposit of a couple PLEX they'll let him do all the PvE he wants in their special area deeep in SOV where no one is allowed to go PvP Lol
An' then [email protected], he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Kult Altol
The Safe Space
#180 - 2012-08-16 19:58:28 UTC
Obligatory hurling of the insult of "CareBear" to all players who don't pvp. You can be perfectly successful in high/low sec, that is what makes the Eveleetists mad. The "Stop liking the things I don't like!" mentality.

[u]Can't wait untill when Eve online is Freemium.[/u] WiS only 10$, SP booster for one month 15$, DPS Boost 2$, EHP Boost 2$ Real money trading hub! Cosmeitic ship skins 15$ --> If you don't [u]pay **[/u]for a product, you ARE the [u]**product[/u].