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Lasers. Names. Changes. Please read before reaching for your weapons.

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Pinstar Colton
Sweet Asteroid Acres
#161 - 2012-08-15 19:44:16 UTC
I'd prefer a closer look at how Lasers perform and their fitting requirements over tweaks on the names.

As for the names themselves, I don't really pay them much mind. If you really wanted to make it smooth, include the meta level on the new expanded tool tips.

In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse.

MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#162 - 2012-08-15 20:40:26 UTC
CCP FoxFour wrote:
You will be happy to know that the only reason I have not posted my full list of name changes for Pulse Lasers is because we are internally discussing the meta name issue. I am trying to come up with something better than the current names. Specifically I would like the names to seem increasing in awesome, but also be alphabetical. :P

Considering that Eve is available in more than one language, such a list of names seems closely related to Unobtanium.

MDD
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#163 - 2012-08-15 20:42:03 UTC
MailDeadDrop wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
You will be happy to know that the only reason I have not posted my full list of name changes for Pulse Lasers is because we are internally discussing the meta name issue. I am trying to come up with something better than the current names. Specifically I would like the names to seem increasing in awesome, but also be alphabetical. :P

Considering that Eve is available in more than one language, such a list of names seems closely related to Unobtanium.

MDD


Crap... to be honest I had not thought about that...

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#164 - 2012-08-15 20:48:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Bloodpetal wrote:


I find that a bit of an eyeful to really enjoy. But, I think it's pretty sexy still.

There may be a better way than just I.1, but it's a step in the right direction.


And, I agree. When you start using the "Upgraded" designators alone, it basically doesn't have a name anymore.


If we, and I stress the if as this is just rambling, what about I think I prefer:
I.I
I.II
I.III
I.IV

Just keeping with how we tend to do things.



I think i'd rather have no 'I' or such for metas as recommended by someone above as an option.

Again, they're "Technically" not T1 gear in the strictest sense, (they aren't manufactured, they're meta '0', they don't drop from mobs, they are simply different).

T2 gear is "Meta 5", but anything after 4 is T2/Faction drops anyways.

I kinda dig the alphabetical Meta naming, It allows for creative usage and pretty straightforward. However, I have to warn you that this might not work so well in the translational department as a functional tool. :)

Where I am.
Circumstantial Evidence
#165 - 2012-08-15 21:00:41 UTC
A single word such as upgraded / version / revision - with a number - would sort AND work across languages.
MailDeadDrop
Archon Industries
#166 - 2012-08-15 21:18:37 UTC  |  Edited by: MailDeadDrop
An alternate attack would be to ask the UI folks to add "order by meta level" to their repertoire. Roll

MDD
CCP FoxFour
C C P
C C P Alliance
#167 - 2012-08-15 21:21:23 UTC
MailDeadDrop wrote:
An alternate attack would be to ask the UI folks to add "order by meta level" to their repertoire. Roll

MDD


For stuff in your inventory this already exists.

@CCP_FoxFour // Technical Designer // Team Tech Co

Third-party developer? Check out the official developers site for dev blogs, resources, and more.
OlRotGut
#168 - 2012-08-15 21:30:05 UTC
Rees Noturana wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Versus the previous recommendation of roman numerals mixed with numbers? i kinda figured that made more sense? I will admit I don't know the roman numeral system that well so if there is a better way to do that let me know.


Since meta level is available as a separate column I don't think we need to clutter the item name with it. Meta levels 1 to 3 are usually trash anyway and not a big concern. I'd like to see the "I" tech level indicator go away as well.

Maybe: [meta name] '[decorative name]' [size] [item type]

So we get: Upgraded 'Anode' Light Pulse Laser

The meta name provides an indication of the level of the item, we keep some storyline 'color' in the name and the final part is together to allow for searching. By using a common meta indicator with a name unique to a line of equipment you keep the best of both worlds without it becoming too long.

Light Pulse Laser I
Upgraded 'Anode' Light Pulse Laser
Limited 'Modal' Light Pulse Laser
Experimental 'Afocal' Light Pulse Laser
Prototype 'Modulated' Light Pulse Laser
Light Pulse Laser II

You could add in a manufacturer name in the Tech II model to add more color. The Tech I indicator could be dropped entirely as well.



This guy has it right. Specially if you guys are going to continue to use the current (meta) naming scheme, but even if you changed it, this could easily change too.

Also I would love it if you guys put the meta level in the icon graphic, much like you have tech 2 and faction icons/notiations.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#169 - 2012-08-15 22:12:05 UTC
Upgraded (meta level 1)
Limited (meta level 2)
Experimental (meta level 3)
Prototype (meta level 4)

Make dust follow this too!

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#170 - 2012-08-15 22:18:04 UTC
Rees Noturana wrote:
Maybe "Rapid" if "Gatling" isn't preferred since it's a dude's name.

I Dig Rapid instead of gattling

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
mrpapageorgio
Cutting Edge Incorporated
#171 - 2012-08-16 02:11:07 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
Upgraded (meta level 1)
Limited (meta level 2)
Experimental (meta level 3)
Prototype (meta level 4)

Make dust follow this too!


These new meta names ccp has taken to using are absolutely awful. Does it make sense at all that a prototype or experimental item would actually be better than something that is upgraded. It makes no sense at all. How about instead they use a naming convention already in place that makes some sense. The naming system from learning implants.

Limited
Beta
Basic
Standard
Improved
Advanced
Elite

Obviously here you have more names than are needed for the meta levels, so throw out the ones that seem the most redundant.
Silas Shaw
Coffee Hub
#172 - 2012-08-16 04:03:48 UTC
Zor'katar wrote:
While we're on the subject of weapon naming, how about removing the word "Artillery" from some of the Autocannon names?


No.
Swidgen
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#173 - 2012-08-16 05:10:43 UTC
I always thought the order of the meta names was kind of backwards:

Upgraded (meta level 1)
Limited (meta level 2)
Experimental (meta level 3)
Prototype (meta level 4)

Given the basis is the T1 version of something (basic vanilla no-meta), a Research and Development effort would endeavour to work towards improving the device. At the beginning of such a project, the team comes up with a Prototype. "Early prototype" is something you hear often. Next, proceeding forward, they develop an Experimental version (based on lessons learned from the prototype). After experimenting with that, a Limited version is developed, followed by a substantially improved (meta 4) Upgraded version. All still T1 items.

Maybe it's a problem with people having ESL, I don't know, but the order of things you've got going now is, to me as a native Enslish speaker (and R&D Engineer), the exact opposite of what it should be.

Having said that, the lasers do have a byzantine naming scheme. After almost 3 years I still use the compare tool and turn on the Meta column to figure out what I need. My guess is that I (and most people) will continue to do that even after naming changes are done. Basically you've got a thankless task ahead of you. One IMO that will take many hours away from other things that the devs should be working on.

Carry on, you're going to do what you want anyway. Same as it ever was.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#174 - 2012-08-16 05:44:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Il Feytid
I do like changes that make searching for things more logical. Also if the name of said item feels right.

I really don't want to change the topic too much, but I was wondering about the meta levels. Currently the three most used are level 1,4 and 5. Level 1 for dirt cheap option, level 4 for best fitting and level 5 for the best bang so to speak. Level 2 and 3 are, well pointless. Where role do they really have in this game? Granted there is rare cases where a person will opt for a meta 2 or 3, but it seems to only be for a scram, disruptor or web.
Sakari Orisi
Doomheim
#175 - 2012-08-16 05:56:42 UTC
Karasuma Akane
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#176 - 2012-08-16 06:16:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Karasuma Akane
Please do not use 'Gatling' for anything to do with lasers/energy weapons. Gatling guns are rotating multibarrel projectile weapons. There is plenty of scientific laser and energy-related terminology listed higher in this thread that could be used instead and would be more correct. Also, if I recall correctly it was pointed out in the last Laser Naming Thread that only a single art/animation design of the current laser turrets appeared as if it could possibly be a gatling-type weapon.

Seeing 'gatling lasers' in-game has always been jarring to me, coming from a military background. Save the 'gatling' for any projectile weapon naming changes! Blink

mrpapageorgio wrote:

How about instead they use a naming convention already in place that makes some sense. The naming system from learning implants.

Limited
Beta
Basic
Standard
Improved
Advanced
Elite

Obviously here you have more names than are needed for the meta levels, so throw out the ones that seem the most redundant.

Definitely should be considered as an option. Basic as the 'basic T1', Standard as meta 1, Improved as meta 2, Advanced as meta 3, and Elite as meta 4.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#177 - 2012-08-16 09:25:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Kusum Fawn
personally i do not see a problem with "gatling" being used for lasers, so long as those laser turrets use multiple crystals. (the crystal being both the ammo, and the disposable/interchangeable part of the turret)

but for the purposes of searches and learning, i would prefer that each meta term be secondary to the flavor name of the turret itself. and that flavor name be different for each type of weapon system. but the same across each variation of system

IE this is the current scheme, in meta order 1-4
Blasters. regulated, limited, anode, modal
Railguns. Carbide, Scout, Compressed, prototype

Artillery. Carbine, Gallium, Prototype, scout
Autocannons. Carbine, Gallium, Prototype, Scout

Beam. Afocal, Modal, Anode, Modulated
Pulse. Afocal, Modal, Anode, Modulated

With the names, Anode, modal, scout and prototype all being used for different meta levels.

I propose meta 1-4
Hybrids. Limited, Scout, Carbide, Regulated
Projectiles. Prototype, Compressed, Carbine, Gallium
Lasers, Afocal, Modal, Anode, Modulated

Which i know will draw issues form people (like me) who have long since memorized the names of the higher meta weapons.

also an issue i see is the cross use of the words beam, maser and laser on some of the laser weapons. and medium and heavy for the same set of weapons.
Specifically for the laser weapons, I propose, (medium sized weapons)
Heavy Afocal Beam Laser & Heavy Afocal Pulse Laser
as opposed to the current Heavy Afocal Maser I & Heavy Afocal Pulse Maser I
(small sized weapons)
Small Afocal Beam Laser & Small Afocal Pulse Laser

For the tier within in the sizes, (lasers, beams) there is actually, several different types taht are shared between the small medium and large classes, the light, the medium, Focused medium, heavy, mega and tachyon.
Small - Gatling, Dual light, medium
Medium - Quad Light, Focused Medium, Heavy
Large - Dual heavy, Mega, Tachyon

I see this as a bigger issue the the cross use of meta names on different turret systems, or modules in general.
It is only the use of the "Light" turret type, (dual light and quad light) that throws off the normal naming convention that is present in all other turrets.

Swap the name and animations of Dual lights and medium (small turrets)
Change the name of "Medium" to "Light"
Change the name of "Focused Medium" to "Medium" (medium turrets)
Problem solved.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#178 - 2012-08-16 10:35:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
I don't think the names themselves are much of an issue. Let's take for instance the missiles - once you know that the numbered version is meta 3 and that arbalest is meta 4, they're easy to figure out. So as long as you keep your designations across weapon types, there should be an issue.

A far bigger problem comes from the fact that sometimes the name "light" is used for medium weapons or that "medium" is used for small. For instance, let's say I want to fit the Omen. I want medium beam weapons on it, therefore I choose Medium Beam Laser I. Except, in this case, I chose a small weapon, because the name was implying a different size. Instead, if I choose a Quad Light Beam Laser, I would have picked the right weapon size, even though the implied size is small.

Long story short - don't worry about similar meta names being used differently across the board, fix the small, medium and large names and we'll have a quarter of the mess.

And of course, it would help to read the last post before I wrote this :p

EDIT: and a few before that :p

Rees Noturana wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Versus the previous recommendation of roman numerals mixed with numbers? i kinda figured that made more sense? I will admit I don't know the roman numeral system that well so if there is a better way to do that let me know.


Since meta level is available as a separate column I don't think we need to clutter the item name with it. Meta levels 1 to 3 are usually trash anyway and not a big concern. I'd like to see the "I" tech level indicator go away as well.

Maybe: [meta name] '[decorative name]' [size] [item type]

So we get: Upgraded 'Anode' Light Pulse Laser

The meta name provides an indication of the level of the item, we keep some storyline 'color' in the name and the final part is together to allow for searching. By using a common meta indicator with a name unique to a line of equipment you keep the best of both worlds without it becoming too long.

Light Pulse Laser I
Upgraded 'Anode' Light Pulse Laser
Limited 'Modal' Light Pulse Laser
Experimental 'Afocal' Light Pulse Laser
Prototype 'Modulated' Light Pulse Laser
Light Pulse Laser II

You could add in a manufacturer name in the Tech II model to add more color. The Tech I indicator could be dropped entirely as well.


I like this solution. A lot.
Sakari Orisi
Doomheim
#179 - 2012-08-16 10:59:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Sakari Orisi
Rees Noturana wrote:
CCP FoxFour wrote:
Versus the previous recommendation of roman numerals mixed with numbers? i kinda figured that made more sense? I will admit I don't know the roman numeral system that well so if there is a better way to do that let me know.


Since meta level is available as a separate column I don't think we need to clutter the item name with it. Meta levels 1 to 3 are usually trash anyway and not a big concern. I'd like to see the "I" tech level indicator go away as well.

Maybe: [meta name] '[decorative name]' [size] [item type]

So we get: Upgraded 'Anode' Light Pulse Laser

The meta name provides an indication of the level of the item, we keep some storyline 'color' in the name and the final part is together to allow for searching. By using a common meta indicator with a name unique to a line of equipment you keep the best of both worlds without it becoming too long.

Light Pulse Laser I
Upgraded 'Anode' Light Pulse Laser
Limited 'Modal' Light Pulse Laser
Experimental 'Afocal' Light Pulse Laser
Prototype 'Modulated' Light Pulse Laser
Light Pulse Laser II

You could add in a manufacturer name in the Tech II model to add more color. The Tech I indicator could be dropped entirely as well.


Seconded, This looks really nice

The evefit project Pyfa thread Phobos thread
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#180 - 2012-08-16 11:02:35 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
I do like changes that make searching for things more logical. Also if the name of said item feels right.

I really don't want to change the topic too much, but I was wondering about the meta levels. Currently the three most used are level 1,4 and 5. Level 1 for dirt cheap option, level 4 for best fitting and level 5 for the best bang so to speak. Level 2 and 3 are, well pointless. Where role do they really have in this game? Granted there is rare cases where a person will opt for a meta 2 or 3, but it seems to only be for a scram, disruptor or web.


Of small noses (let us pray that a UI solution is found for this UI problem before nymicide gets as far as removing ghouls from EVE), Knave is markedly easier to fit.

Heat sinks become harder to fit with every meta level until T2, so my Slicers had Skadi heat sinks for quite a while. Actually I kept Skadi heat sinks even when Extruded would fit, because I loved the name.

Invention benefits from higher meta levels, and I imagine buying meta 4 stuff to invent meta 5 stuff isn't ideal.