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Why Off Grid booster nerf won't happen (ever) or won't be what you think

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Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#261 - 2012-08-15 21:42:48 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cearain wrote:

1)Ok you admit you use them.

2)BC points do tend to show how much you blob. And no I don't use faction cruisers or carriers to rep my merlins. So no dice there.

3)You make a bad comparision about how boosters help less as the gang size increases. Boosters will almost always decide a 1v1 but they won't always decide a 200 v 200.

4) Yeah ok try to dodge the actual facts about your and my actual killboard and just go with your raw assertion. I'm in fw so I want off grid boosting removed to help me blob. Nice.


1. You admitted you use links, so we're even on that score.
2. BC points don't show how often you blob and anyone that tries to use them as a serious measure of epeen measurement is :lol: in my book.
3. Talking about boosters in terms of "1v1" is stupid. What you're really talking about is 2v1, so yes I expect the 2 to win (generally). But 2v1+1 is as small as this scale goes - and the advantage is decidedly towards the on grid people.
4. I'm just going by what you say. You don't care about any of the consequences I've brought up - just remove it NAO because "LIFE ISN'T FAIR, A FRIG CAN TAKE ON MY CRUISER QQ, QQ, QQ" :pout:

-Liang

Ed: And the funny thing is that you would assert that the frig has bonuses even if he doesn't. LOL.



1) I almost never use them. If you used them as rarely as I do there is no way you would be posting in every thread to keep them.
2) BC points per kill and per loss can indeed be a decent indicator of how much one blobs. They are a much better indicator than just accusations on a forum.
3) Of course you don't know its a 2v1 you are walking into so its easy ganks for you and your corp isn't it?
4) What is the big concern you have that removing off grid boosting will ruin eve? Or will it just take away your crutch? And no I never said what you quoted. But yes I did use the frigate soloing a cruiser that can't even lock the frigate as an example of how outrageous the advantages to off grid boosting are.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#262 - 2012-08-15 21:45:00 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Cearain wrote:


Face it your off grid booster is a crutch. That is why you rarely pvp outside ammamake. That is why you are in every one of these off grid boosting threads trying to justify an obviously bad mechanic.

Just try walking without the crutch you will be able to do it.





Confirming that off-grid boosters can't move systems. Roll



Not if they are in a pos in your corps home system.


But I thought that you guys were saying OGBs are"virtually riskfree".

So whats the problem? Twisted


What is your problem? Seriously leave the crutch behind.

What is the risk in having one in a pos in your home system?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#263 - 2012-08-15 21:47:14 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
[quote=Cearain]


Ed: And the funny thing is that you would assert that the frig has bonuses even if he doesn't. LOL.



Why, other than your penchant for making completely unfounded claims, would you say that?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#264 - 2012-08-15 21:50:20 UTC
Yeep wrote:
Cearain wrote:

I shoot the falcon or the rr ship because they are ... wait for it.... on grid. BTW you realize they nerfed a falcons range so that they had to be more committed to the combat. Do you think they should extend it back out?

And even if I die, I at least know after the fight not to fight them again. So I avoid them. There aren't that many people who do that and they quickly become well known to the locals.

Who is getting boosts is not so easy to determine.


So effectively you're asking for the game to be balanced around your borderline autistic need to know every single variable involved in every fight you ever have....



No but you are effectively demonstrating you have poor reading comprehension.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#265 - 2012-08-15 21:59:36 UTC
Cearain wrote:

Right you don't use off grid boosters but you are so butthurt about the notion that they would be removed that you post in every thread about it.

That makes sense.

Some of the times I know people are using off grid boosters because of the range of their points and the disruptor that showed up on their killmail. I also know because lots of people admit it. Its not really a secret nor is it a crime to use boosters. Hell I am training a booster alt up myself. It sucks that eve is going in this direction, but until they change this rule its alts online or gtfo.


The simple fact of the matter is that gang boosting is an alt activity because gang boosting isn't something that's suitable for a main to do - regardless of whether or not they're on grid. If I wanted to bring my gang booster on grid, I'd just warp it to zero on the fight, alt-tab, and rep it with my Logi.

So let's fix the problems with gang boosting ships and then move them on grid.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#266 - 2012-08-15 22:00:35 UTC
Cearain wrote:

What is your problem? Seriously leave the crutch behind.

What is the risk in having one in a pos in your home system?


You have obviously never shared a home system with PL.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#267 - 2012-08-15 22:04:33 UTC
Cearain wrote:

1) I almost never use them. If you used them as rarely as I do there is no way you would be posting in every thread to keep them.
2) BC points per kill and per loss can indeed be a decent indicator of how much one blobs. They are a much better indicator than just accusations on a forum.
3) Of course you don't know its a 2v1 you are walking into so its easy ganks for you and your corp isn't it?
4) What is the big concern you have that removing off grid boosting will ruin eve? Or will it just take away your crutch? And no I never said what you quoted. But yes I did use the frigate soloing a cruiser that can't even lock the frigate as an example of how outrageous the advantages to off grid boosting are.


1. Your reading comprehension is poor. I'm not saying to keep off grid boosting. I'm saying to fix the problems moving them on grid is going to cause, and then move them.
2. Not really. See Lukka.
3. You never know if it's a 2v1 or even a 200v1 when Amarr decides they're going to Titan bridge me again.
4. The primary concern is that only blobs will have links (and they will have links). I'd like to see fleet commands have a role in the fleets they're nominally supposed to fly in. No, being a brick and having 5 DPS is not compelling gameplay. Furthermore, I'd like to see the introduction of tanky/fast T2 destroyers with a 5 turret/3 link configuration.

I would also be pretty stoked by turning Fleet Commands into BC sized logistics with 3 links. That'd be ******* pimp.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#268 - 2012-08-15 22:05:23 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Cearain wrote:


Face it your off grid booster is a crutch. That is why you rarely pvp outside ammamake. That is why you are in every one of these off grid boosting threads trying to justify an obviously bad mechanic.

Just try walking without the crutch you will be able to do it.





Confirming that off-grid boosters can't move systems. Roll



Not if they are in a pos in your corps home system.


But I thought that you guys were saying OGBs are"virtually riskfree".

So whats the problem? Twisted


What is your problem? Seriously leave the crutch behind.

What is the risk in having one in a pos in your home system?



I only have plans to use my OGB to fight outnumbered.

Using it in a 1v1 (2v1) like you talk about so much is like killing a noob in an ibis. No adrenaline, no fun.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#269 - 2012-08-15 22:10:15 UTC
Yeep wrote:
Cearain wrote:

3)You make a bad comparision about how boosters help less as the gang size increases. Boosters will almost always decide a 1v1 but they won't always decide a 200 v 200.


There are no offgrid boosters in a 1v1 unless you have magic guns that can shoot off grid. What you have there is a 1v2.


Even if you have those magic guns it is still a 2v1.

Baron vonDoom
Scorn.
#270 - 2012-08-15 22:30:33 UTC
The problem with offgrid boosting in general is power creep.

People keep arguing how it helps them soloing gatecamps and fighting superior numbers, but will people turn their offgrid alts off as soon as they're not fighting superior ships and numbers? I guess not.

Eventually, having a booster alt will divide characters interested in solo and small gang pvp in those having one and those not having one, making offgrid boosting alts a quasi-prerequisite to do either, since everyone will assume a solo pilot or small gang has one and properly blob them as a consequence.

Whilst it helps solo/small gang in the short run at the moment, it raises the entry barrier for successful solo and small gang pvp and thus, hurts that segment of the game in the long run.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#271 - 2012-08-15 22:49:56 UTC
Baron vonDoom wrote:
The problem with offgrid boosting in general is power creep.

People keep arguing how it helps them soloing gatecamps and fighting superior numbers, but will people turn their offgrid alts off as soon as they're not fighting superior ships and numbers? I guess not.

Eventually, having a booster alt will divide characters interested in solo and small gang pvp in those having one and those not having one, making offgrid boosting alts a quasi-prerequisite to do either, since everyone will assume a solo pilot or small gang has one and properly blob them as a consequence.

Whilst it helps solo/small gang in the short run at the moment, it raises the entry barrier for successful solo and small gang pvp and thus, hurts that segment of the game in the long run.


While that is a semi-valid point,

It simply isn't worth the effort to drag a booster alt with you everywhere you go, for every single 1v1 and whatnot.

Plus, if you are interested in making pvp videos and putting them in the forums, the ones that have no boosters/implants get more praise.

A booster alt isn't like an implant that requires no effort to use, every time you jump a gate.. you have to jump twice. If you want to boost you need a make a SS in a system before you do so.. Unless you are OK with boosting on a planet in your half-a-billion 10k ehp ship. The SS deal is a pain if you decide to roam.

What a OGB is best for are situations where you spot a pirate gate camp or a 0.0 blob camp and you can set up a SS before hand and plan your attack. If you plan to use in on a roaming basis which is more like solo pvp... It is a hassle and not worth it imo.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#272 - 2012-08-15 22:53:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Diesel47 wrote:
1. No boosting inside a POS bubble (this is just downright unfair)

Future POS probably won't have a force field. See CSM minutes.

Diesel47 wrote:
2. T3s can only boost for around 5 pilots or so, limiting their use to small gangs only. Buff to small gang warfare, which is never a bad thing. Unless you are a blobbing noob.

T3 are likely to get a nerf to the 5%, probably 3% plus a secondary bonus (example: 2% of any other links).

Diesel47 wrote:
3. Fleet Command ships keep their 3% bonus, but also can give bonuses to the entire fleet. Maybe even buff their survivability a bit.

Hopefully they'll fix the wing commanders not getting boosts.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#273 - 2012-08-15 22:57:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Baron vonDoom wrote:
The problem with offgrid boosting in general is power creep.

People keep arguing how it helps them soloing gatecamps and fighting superior numbers, but will people turn their offgrid alts off as soon as they're not fighting superior ships and numbers? I guess not.

Eventually, having a booster alt will divide characters interested in solo and small gang pvp in those having one and those not having one, making offgrid boosting alts a quasi-prerequisite to do either, since everyone will assume a solo pilot or small gang has one and properly blob them as a consequence.

Whilst it helps solo/small gang in the short run at the moment, it raises the entry barrier for successful solo and small gang pvp and thus, hurts that segment of the game in the long run.


Again, solo PVP has no room in this discussion. Getting to the meat of your point: this is true of all gang bonuses. The primary reason for that is because gang bonuses are so strong as a whole - so really the only way that you're going to avoid this fate is via a catastrophic nerf for all gang bonuses (off grid or not).

-Liang

Ed: Note that I'd be ok with the complete removal of gang bonuses from Eve despite the fact that I have several well skilled leadership characters. Even if I didn't get any reimbursement. The real key for me is that blobs don't have that strong of an advantage over small gangs.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#274 - 2012-08-15 23:24:58 UTC
Shame there is not any sov or hq related pvp mechanics. So the further you are in light years from your hq, the worse the gang bonuses are. At least for the top notch bonuses. Or even some that can be 'juiced' and fit on smaller ships then deteriorate over time catering to the smaller gang style of guerilla warfare. Dunno, just another terrible idea from the bad corner.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#275 - 2012-08-15 23:49:04 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Shame there is not any sov or hq related pvp mechanics. So the further you are in light years from your hq, the worse the gang bonuses are. At least for the top notch bonuses. Or even some that can be 'juiced' and fit on smaller ships then deteriorate over time catering to the smaller gang style of guerilla warfare. Dunno, just another terrible idea from the bad corner.


If it doesn't buff blob gameplay... it can't be that bad can it? Lol
LilRemmy
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#276 - 2012-08-16 00:02:08 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:

Quote:

Oh? So I can't have implants? I'm not entitled to use them?

What about faction fits? I thought you said I should faction fit everything? Lol?

How dare I have an advantage?! You are right, I should start every fight with an ibis... That way I won't ever have any advantages over other players. This game is all about fairness after al


Already answered; the statistical advantages from invisible things like faction mods are minor. Even the statistical advantages of things like implants are pretty small relative to cost.


Regardless, there's little point in continuing this since apparently everyone's bitty. CCP and the CSM have already spoken, and OGBs are not going to be here for very long.


You go girl.

Next up "Should ISK be removed from the game?"



You sound desperate now.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#277 - 2012-08-16 00:07:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Diesel47
LilRemmy wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:

Quote:

Oh? So I can't have implants? I'm not entitled to use them?

What about faction fits? I thought you said I should faction fit everything? Lol?

How dare I have an advantage?! You are right, I should start every fight with an ibis... That way I won't ever have any advantages over other players. This game is all about fairness after al


Already answered; the statistical advantages from invisible things like faction mods are minor. Even the statistical advantages of things like implants are pretty small relative to cost.


Regardless, there's little point in continuing this since apparently everyone's bitty. CCP and the CSM have already spoken, and OGBs are not going to be here for very long.


You go girl.

Next up "Should ISK be removed from the game?"



You sound desperate now.



And only ever pvping with 40 friends to back you up isn't?

Are you that really desperate to win that a little risk sends shivers up your non existent spine? Lol
Baron vonDoom
Scorn.
#278 - 2012-08-16 00:46:34 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
[
While that is a semi-valid point,

It simply isn't worth the effort to drag a booster alt with you everywhere you go, for every single 1v1 and whatnot.



I wouldn't consider it an effort "to drag them around". On the contrary - I think they're quite useful as a cov ops scout with increased survivability compared to a cov ops frig due to more EHP and an interdiction nullifier.

Quote:
A booster alt isn't like an implant that requires no effort to use, every time you jump a gate.. you have to jump twice. If you want to boost you need a make a SS in a system before you do so.. Unless you are OK with boosting on a planet in your half-a-billion 10k ehp ship. The SS deal is a pain if you decide to roam.


Either I already have a safespot in a system i roam in or I want to make at least a couple on the run before I even jump the cavalry into the system.

A cloaked interdiction nullified T3 is perfect for that. It's not an "effort", it's something I'd even use over the cov ops frigs I used to use before the introduction of T3s if I couldn't fit gang links on it.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#279 - 2012-08-16 00:49:23 UTC
Baron vonDoom wrote:
Diesel47 wrote:
[
While that is a semi-valid point,

It simply isn't worth the effort to drag a booster alt with you everywhere you go, for every single 1v1 and whatnot.



I wouldn't consider it an effort "to drag them around". On the contrary - I think they're quite useful as a cov ops scout with increased survivability compared to a cov ops frig due to more EHP and an interdiction nullifier.

Quote:
A booster alt isn't like an implant that requires no effort to use, every time you jump a gate.. you have to jump twice. If you want to boost you need a make a SS in a system before you do so.. Unless you are OK with boosting on a planet in your half-a-billion 10k ehp ship. The SS deal is a pain if you decide to roam.


Either I already have a safespot in a system i roam in or I want to make at least a couple on the run before I even jump the cavalry into the system.

A cloaked interdiction nullified T3 is perfect for that. It's not an "effort", it's something I'd even use over the cov ops frigs I used to use before the introduction of T3s if I couldn't fit gang links on it.



Well I guess our playstyles differ.

But I wouldn't take an OGB everywhere I go for every fight, I see it more as a tool to be used in situations rather than an extension of my main.
Ziranda Hakuli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#280 - 2012-08-16 00:56:38 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Alot of people whining about off grid boosters being OP and unfair, even though they have been around for a very long time. Lol

I don't think CCP is ready to pull the plug on off grid boosting, because the fact of the matter is ... There many accounts being plexed and paid for just so they can provide the boosts.

CCP is a business afterall and it isn't good for business to be making changes that will reduce their income. I for one don't really feel too strongly how this matter is resolved, but I will unsub my OGB toon if they remove off grid boosting. Thats $15 a month less income for CCP. I'm sure many other OGB alt owners feel the same.



I have a reasonable solution though.

If I worked at CCP I would do the following:

1. No boosting inside a POS bubble (this is just downright unfair)

2. T3s can only boost for around 5 pilots or so, limiting their use to small gangs only. Buff to small gang warfare, which is never a bad thing. Unless you are a blobbing noob.

3. Fleet Command ships keep their 3% bonus, but also can give bonuses to the entire fleet. Maybe even buff their survivability a bit.


POS whiners are happy, Small gangs are happy, and command ship pilots can perform their role without T3s getting in the way. Unsubs are minimal, and gameplay/balance/whatever is fixed.


EDIT:

I see alot of people agreeing with my second suggestion, the one which has the T3 only boost for a limited amount of people.

I honestly think that is a great idea and would like to see CCP do that if they do infact want to change the boosting mechanics. Anybody that thinks this is a bad idea I just assume to be a blobbing noob that can't stand small gang pvp.

It seems like the community (Forums, anyways..) are completely against anything that somehow effects their style of play without considering the other players who are also playing the same game. Look a couple threads over and people are raging about ASB and how they can't just blob somebody to make them go away. The threads are endless.

I encourage everybody in this thread to stop thinking about only your playstyle and instead think of how you can improve the game for everybody with a meaningful compromise.



#1 i just toss out. its called home ground advantage. suck it up if you are invading. Or plan ahead.
#2 just reduce the affectiveness. should never have out performed a REAL Command Ship